Destruction of the Arena OOC

[Undine]

Cool Beans​

 

[The Good Doctor]

Hey @Fyston. I have an issue with your post. My force pull caught you when you were fumbling for your firespray. Your character was purely putting focus on that. I don't think you have time to redirect it to your lightsaber (can that even be done? I'm concentrating on your chest and pulling it and nothing else?) And given you are doing this as you are fumbling for firespray, you should be got off-guard and unable to respond that quick.

And if you do get pulled I don't think you are able to do that either since you won't be able to concentrate with being forcefully pulled at high speeds after being caught off guard. To instantly redirect my pull like you did in your post, you'd essentially have to negate your action as confirmed by my posting and/or precog my attack.

And you wouldn't be able to guide it while redirecting my pull either.

 

[Fyston]

So obviously I disagree, though am at work and we've run fairly steadily all day so my thoughts may be a bit jumbled. To start, I don't think it's beyond a person's ability to pretend to fumble for something on their belt while keeping an eye on their opponent. Especially given it's something to be used against said opponent, I feel anyone would be keeping at least some of their attention on their opponent. While this is anecdotal at best, I can start an IV without needing to take my eyes off of the pt because I know where I set my stuff.

That said, I don't think I'm having to negate my own action nor precog your attack. Celtar goes for the firespray (keeping an eye on Xaxis, in my opinion, as mentioned above), and feels the pull (your interrupt). He ceases going for the firespray and instead redirects the energy to affect his lightsaber/hand while pushing with the Force. While I am no RP admin, I believe this is doable because the Force here is limited mainly by one's imagination. I'm sure that this will be our main point of contention because you feel this is not doable whereas I do. To further support my opinion, you stated that

In addition to pulling him closer, it should also interfere with the draw of the firespray he wanted (and not being able to use it on Xaxis by extension), and mess up his readied guard with his lightsaber

. This tells me that at least some of the energy is going towards the lightsaber, though that is my own opinion/POV.

In addition, Celtar hasn't used any Force powers/abilities/energy this thread (as the choke was interrupted by @Undine's character) whereas Xaxis has force sprinted/sped/ran around the arena fast enough to attack Celtar before he entered the arena and was ready to do those blasts for, IIRC, two posts/rounds now. While I will agree that that doesn't count as actually doing them, I still feel that preparing such an attack should use some energy.

Furthermore, you state that

Xaxis, not wanting to stop his own momentum and wanting his planned attack to land with as less interference as possible,

. So you plan on continuing on with your attack from last round but also go against going that "planned attack" by, while running, moving your left hand, pulling with a "heavy amount of use of the Force," and then going for another attack. Yes, I realize that you state that this is a different attack but it reads much the same as the, essentially, same attack from last round. Humans tend to jog at over 5mph (2.2ish meters/sec) and run at between 10mph (4.4ish m/s) and 15mph (6.6ish m/s).

If your character is moving at 5mph and, when we're 10m away from each other, you remove 7m of that space, you are essentially planning to attack within a second of that pull and, given the length, heft, etc, of a staff, I feel that is difficult, if not impossible. If you are arguing that Celtar is unable to effectively respond given not having enough time, I would argue that Xaxis is unable to attack due to, essentially, the same reason.

I wished to avoid numbers games or other rather pedantic arguments (positioning, exact specifics, etc), hence why I responded in the way that I did. I wish to make clear that I'm not calling your argument pedantic, rather that I seek to avoid unnecessary arguments that often come up in PvP.

 

[The Good Doctor]

So obviously I disagree, though am at work and we've run fairly steadily all day so my thoughts may be a bit jumbled. To start, I don't think it's beyond a person's ability to pretend to fumble for something on their belt while keeping an eye on their opponent. Especially given it's something to be used against said opponent, I feel anyone would be keeping at least some of their attention on their opponent. While this is anecdotal at best, I can start an IV without needing to take my eyes off of the pt because I know where I set my stuff.

That said, I don't think I'm having to negate my own action nor precog your attack. Celtar goes for the firespray (keeping an eye on Xaxis, in my opinion, as mentioned above), and feels the pull (your interrupt). He ceases going for the firespray and instead redirects the energy to affect his lightsaber/hand while pushing with the Force. While I am no RP admin, I believe this is doable because the Force here is limited mainly by one's imagination. I'm sure that this will be our main point of contention because you feel this is not doable whereas I do.

I'm not arguing that your person can't have attention on the person in front of them charging at them. But for your IV example, like randomly started forcefully pushing/pulling you while doing said IV thing it would be wholey botched up? Maybe? I'm not going to pretend to know how that works. But part of what I find questionable here is the instantaneous defense. Unless I am mistaken with something like force push/pull, you don't feel it and then it hits you a moment later. The feeling and it hitting happens simultaneously. And then as you said, you are redirecting the pull and pushing the lightsaber with the force at the same time, that means you instantaneously used two different force abilities at the same time. I don't think that's allowed

The force is kind of limited to one's imagination, but even then it has rules and limitations. At best, I'd imagine for a redirect that you'd have to wrestle control of my force pull by exerting greater amount of force that what i'm doing. But I don't see any basis in canon for this kind of redirecting. I don't see any basis for it in legends (going by a quick google search anyways). The only thing I'm seeing in the Guide to Forcepowers about redirecting is redirecting plasma-based attacks like blasters or lightning. And I maintain that you won't be able to grip the lightsaber too while doing it at the same time.

This tells me that at least some of the energy is going towards the lightsaber, though that is my own opinion/POV.

No. I stated my force pull was aimed at your chest. Foiling your readied guard was a hopeful/intended/antipcated side-effect of doing pulling you some 7 meters. Going by your post, I didn't need to hit your firespray arm to interfere with that.

In addition, Celtar hasn't used any Force powers/abilities/energy this thread (as the choke was interrupted by @Undine's character) whereas Xaxis has force sprinted/sped/ran around the arena fast enough to attack Celtar before he entered the arena and was ready to do those blasts for, IIRC, two posts/rounds now. While I will agree that that doesn't count as actually doing them, I still feel that preparing such an attack should use some energy.

I did say in like my second post the arena 'wasn't that big' for what it's worth. But my listing of current uses of force powers are. 1. Having the force flow through my kyber staff to use later in my opening post. 2. Running around the arena. 3. An interrupted force choke before any real damage could be done or power exerted. 4. Heavy force pull.

And the Kyber Staff's write up says it stores force energy, that of which can be released later. If I used my stored shot and then decide to store more energy into it, that would be me using energy. In the write-up I'm not seeing anything leading me to believe there is an upkeep cost or a cost to prepare to used the stored energy. Pointing my staff at you shouldn't cost me energy.

. So you plan on continuing on with your attack from last round but also go against going that "planned attack" by, while running, moving your left hand, pulling with a "heavy amount of use of the Force," and then going for another attack. Yes, I realize that you state that this is a different attack but it reads much the same as the, essentially, same attack from last round. Humans tend to jog at over 5mph (2.2ish meters/sec) and run at between 10mph (4.4ish m/s) and 15mph (6.6ish m/s).

If your character is moving at 5mph and, when we're 10m away from each other, you remove 7m of that space, you are essentially planning to attack within a second of that pull and, given the length, heft, etc, of a staff, I feel that is difficult, if not impossible. If you are arguing that Celtar is unable to effectively respond given not having enough time, I would argue that Xaxis is unable to attack due to, essentially, the same reason.

I wished to avoid numbers games or other rather pedantic arguments (positioning, exact specifics, etc), hence why I responded in the way that I did. I wish to make clear that I'm not calling your argument pedantic, rather that I seek to avoid unnecessary arguments that often come up in PvP.

I share your reservations about getting into numbers games. But I must admit I am unfamilar with average m/s per an average jogger. But I suppose this is a moot point because this is probably going to be interupted before it can happen regardless. So I'll refrain from touching this too much for now.

I'm still having fun though and apologies if this is an incoherent mess of an ooc post. I simply disagree

 

[Fyston]

I'm not arguing that your person can't have attention on the person in front of them charging at them. But for your IV example, like randomly started forcefully pushing/pulling you while doing said IV thing it would be wholey botched up? Maybe? I'm not going to pretend to know how that works. But part of what I find questionable here is the instantaneous defense. Unless I am mistaken with something like force push/pull, you don't feel it and then it hits you a moment later. The feeling and it hitting happens simultaneously. And then as you said, you are redirecting the pull and pushing the lightsaber with the force at the same time, that means you instantaneously used two different force abilities at the same time. I don't think that's allowed

So going back to my anecdote, patients pushing and pulling, bumps in the road, etc, will certainly mess with the success rate, though experience will allow you to compensate and overcome the difficulties. Since it's anecdotal and probably extremely unrelated, it likely doesn't even matter and we may as well be arguing the price of tea in China :P As to your bit regarding the instantaneous defense, you still have to gather the Force to use it and that focus can be felt by another Force user (at least in my opinion), particularly if you're attempting to heavily pull on someone who is essentially the same size as you.

The force is kind of limited to one's imagination, but even then it has rules and limitations. At best, I'd imagine for a redirect that you'd have to wrestle control of my force pull by exerting greater amount of force that what i'm doing. But I don't see any basis in canon for this kind of redirecting. I don't see any basis for it in legends (going by a quick google search anyways). The only thing I'm seeing in the Guide to Forcepowers about redirecting is redirecting plasma-based attacks like blasters or lightning. And I maintain that you won't be able to grip the lightsaber too while doing it at the same time.

Per the Guide to Force Powers: "Defensively, a Force User might be expected to be able to create shields of energy to protect themselves from damage or even an opponent's own Force powers, or to manipulate such powers and turn them back on their opponent." In my opinion, I really only have to very briefly redirect this energy (to my lightsaber, as stated in my post, and very briefly because you're doing it as quickly as possible and while running, etc) and then right afterwards turn my attention to my attack. As I mentioned in my post, it's easier to redirect energy than it is to block it outright and, rather than blocking your Pull, redirected it and used it against you. On Geonosis, Yoda caught Dooku's Force Lightning and deflected it back at him (as with you, I found little else aside from these types of attacks). By no means is Celtar equivalent to Yoda but a Force Pull redirection would require less training/experience/energy than redirecting lightning.

No. I stated my force pull was aimed at your chest. Foiling your readied guard was a hopeful/intended/antipcated side-effect of doing pulling you some 7 meters. Going by your post, I didn't need to hit your firespray arm to interfere with that.

While I disagree, I stand by my earlier argument that the redirection is a valid tactic, thus rendering this argument moot (at least for now).

I did say in like my second post the arena 'wasn't that big' for what it's worth. But my listing of current uses of force powers are. 1. Having the force flow through my kyber staff to use later in my opening post. 2. Running around the arena. 3. An interrupted force choke before any real damage could be done or power exerted. 4. Heavy force pull.

And the Kyber Staff's write up says it stores force energy, that of which can be released later. If I used my stored shot and then decide to store more energy into it, that would be me using energy. In the write-up I'm not seeing anything leading me to believe there is an upkeep cost or a cost to prepare to used the stored energy. Pointing my staff at you shouldn't cost me energy.

While I agree that the write up says it stores Force energy, it also states: "This does not reduce the amount of fatigue a user suffers on excessive Force user, but rather allows the Force to flow more readily, similar to a lightsaber, allowing the wielder to call upon the Force more easily in the heat of battle." So aye, you can store energy but it still fatigues you to use said energy, at least in my opinion. While I'll cede that it's not like you've destroyed the arena, Celtar has used no Force energy and, this is going to be less fatigued than Xaxis, allowing for larger or more uses of the Force by Celtar (because he has all of his energy)

I think that's it for now but I just got off so it might be a bit before I can respond again as I need sleep.

 

[The Good Doctor]

Hmmm. I've been consulting this thing with a friend more knowledgeable in PVP than I am. Your redirecting of force powers isn't an easy thing to do and takes time. When you are defending against something it isn't as cost efficient as going on the aggressive, you are having to use energy to not only stop the momentum of the object/power but the kinetic force behind it. That means the defender is having to spend MORE energy to defend rather then attack, twice as much in fact. On top of that, it is known that shielding powers are exhausting in the short and long term due to the amount of energy required to utilize them. Now, for redirecting, which might be more cost efficient, but you are having to be mentally prepared to utilize this skill, not in a moments notice.

To add on, you never had a stipulation that your character was prepared to alter his actions should the event arise, this is a full commitment to your character's actions per the PVP rules. You stated how your character you react with the canister and his physical defenses should his opponent continue the assault but no other mention of mental or force preparations are made and no clause stating your character was prepared to alter his actions either. So, by stating your character stops going for the canister (for your defense), an action that was confirmed by my post you are in fact negating your own actions to negate mine, you cannot self-negate.

So, I still don't agree. And seeing as how neither of us seem to be willing concede, I have reported that post to turn it over to the PVP admins. Either way, something to be learned (for me at least maybe). And we are still doing good, this would only be our first report.

Anyways, no hard feelings or anything, we don't agree and there's nothing wrong with that.

 

[Undine]

To add on, you never had a stipulation that your character was prepared to alter his actions should the event arise, this is a full commitment to your character's actions per the PVP rules. You stated how your character you react with the canister and his physical defenses should his opponent continue the assault but no other mention of mental or force preparations are made and no clause stating your character was prepared to alter his actions either. So, by stating your character stops going for the canister (for your defense), an action that was confirmed by my post you are in fact negating your own actions to negate mine, you cannot self-negate.

Your Force attack serves to interrupt anything that happens after the Pull itself is initiated. Because your character's attack interrupts Celtar's actions, @Fyston may choose to react how he sees fit from that point forward. Any disagreements concerning how Fyston had his character react to that attack need to be addressed before moving on to the redirection itself. To me, you seem to be pushing forward with it being too fast for Celtar's character to be able to react, to which I'll simply quote the site's PvP rule on the matter.

Subsection E: Any attack must be able to be countered unless you have approached the end of a duel. You cannot simply walk into a thread and kill someone instantly. Everyone should be given the chance to defend themselves. Whether or not they are able to think of a defense is up to their own imagination

You have to allow your opponent the chance to react or defend themselves, PvP is about outsmarting your opponent. That doesn't mean your opponent is guaranteed an out no matter what, only that they need to be given a chance to think of one.

From what I can see, Celtar pretended to fumble for his lightsaber and instead went for a Firespray canister (note, Firespray are not grenades, they are canisters of flammable aerosol), Xaxis then uses a Force attack. Keep in mind that this following text:​

In addition to pulling him closer, it should also interfere with the draw of the firespray he wanted (and not being able to use it on Xaxis by extension), and mess up his readied guard with his lightsaber

That entire sentence is simply conjecture, as even should the Force pull work, there is nothing to stop Celtar from moving his hand since your Force pull was meant to pull him by the chest. I'm not sure if you've ever been pulled before, perhaps by your mother when you were being an unruly child, but your still able to kick and scream, bite and claw your way to timeout. There is nothing to say he couldn't reach for his lightsaber, he isn't being strangled or crushed, or even wounded by use of the Force itself, only being pulled by the chest, not the arms or legs, or even the neck.

Personally, if it were Emerald fighting you and this line of events happened, I'd let the Force pull go through, even take the hit from the staff, as I further crossed those last 3 meters, considering your characters were 10 meters apart and you pulled Celtar 7 of those meters, and plunged my lightsaber through your Sith's chest up close and personal. You'd be very hard pressed to dodge or evade the attack as the attack itself would be happening while Celtar was also taking the staff to the face/wherever. Keep in mind, 3 meters is equal to nearly 10 feet, most lightsabers tend to be able 3.2-3.5 feet in length, he'd need about a half a foot to a full foot of depth to outright kill your character with the end of his lightsaber, but if he drew on the power of the Force while being pulled he could hit the ground running so to speak, cross that last 7-8 feet in the blink of an eye and your dead.

The fact that his attack would be happening the exact same time your staff attack would be would lock in your own actions as your previously wrote them to be and you wouldn't be able to use that staff or your arm(s) to defend yourself. Pulling out your lightsaber would be about as much of a dick move as your seem to think Fyston was doing by grabbing the lightsaber he was already handling, perhaps more so even.

Perhaps @Fyston should simply edit his post to reflect my thoughts above. Would that be satisfactory @Lightspeed?

Please let me know if there are anymore questions or details to discuss.​

 

[The Good Doctor]

I appreciate your attempts for a compromise. But for now, I'd rather see my report through. Even if the ruling doesn't rule in my favor, fair enough. I'd know for that redirection like in Fyston's post is indeed a valid move as written and I'd maybe apply that in future battles.

Hate to be seen as uncooperative or uncompromising, but this ruling would help me in the future regardless of outcome.

 

[GABA]

Ok, after reading through there is one thing that I want to make sure you guys are clear about:

INTERRUPTING ACTIONS =/= BACK TRACKING ACTIONS
​

@Lightspeed really, your post should have been reported, you can't just stop your character in mid run because he saw what @Fyston 's guy is fumbling with his belt. That's where things got icky, but because Fy posted and went along with it, nothing we can do about it now. So, with that being said, once you post those actions in your post, you can't necessarily go back and decide to change your character's actions because of the outcome of the next person's post. If you're running full speed, then you'd next time have to face the fact that your guy was going to get a face full of fire spray.

Interrupting actions, would have been like if Lightspeed's character was running full speed at Fyston's guy and then deciding to have Celtar to Force pull his legs out from underneath. That is considered interrupting because your breaking the chain of actions without retconning what your character was doing previously.

Ok, so as for @Fyston's post, Fy, your character is being pulled by the chest, you can't redirect anything because 1) that'll be power playing LS's move 2) there simply isn't enough time for him to try to redirect given LS's guy is still coming after him. Its also not an interruption either, this is an instance where you just need to move with it or else you'd be backtracking again. So what you can do is go on the defense, you don't necessarily need to be a rag doll, but you still need to validate LS' attack (and same goes for LS in future posts for Fy's replies). Please edit your post in the next 24 hours to reflect these changes.

 

[Fyston]

Understood, @GABA the Hutt, am working on edits now.

@Lightspeed, are you thrusting with the intent of doing that concussive blast or is that for if the staff gets blocked or I dodge the thrust?

 

[The Good Doctor]

My post says my character is aiming to do the said concussive blast and also it will still happen even if it's blocked or dodged (unless by a wide margin).

Edit: And thank you for the timely ruling Gaba. I thought my interupt window started with Fyston holsted his pistol. I know better now going forward.

 

[Fyston]

@GABA the Hutt @Undine @christhebarker @Lightspeed The edits have been made.

 

[The Good Doctor]

I think i'm good with the edits as they stand. Although I need to know what the distance is between our characters when you use your powerful force push
@Fyston

Thank you sir!

 

[Fyston]

I'll state it here, though just lemme know if you need me to edit it in to the post itself: 3m

 

[Fyston]

So while my leave of absence is approaching/here, I do wish to point out that I disagree with you being able to do all of these things in your post, @Lightspeed.

So I didn't state (due to my own fault, I can admit) which side I was pushing the staff towards and you specify the left. While I can make the argument that you cannot exploit vagueness, I want to overlook that for the time being. So we're 3m apart when the push happens and I outlined above that the average human top run speed is about 6.6m/s. Given that you have already exerted that heavy force pull on Celtar with the intent being to get him quickly into range and hit him with the spear, I believe you simply do not have enough time to block. We're talking you have half a second (discounting the added momentum from being heavily pulled) and in that half a second you not only regain complete control of your staff but bring it close to your body vertically in order to block (unless this is a swing that you're doing and you do the blast right after this swing) and then do a blast. I also wish to make it clear that you also stated that your character was charging forward towards mine (closing that distance even more). Yeah, you may have staggered backwards a meter but that's still a lot to do in under 2/3rds of a second at max.

You also state in one sentence that " he tries to regain control of it, but he was able to stop himself from spinning as he keeps control of it with both hands. And while he is doing that, he sees the Jedi in front of him going on the offensive while his weapon is readied." I may be misreading this sentence (hell of a day so this is possible) but I read that as your character is affected by the push but stops himself from spinning in one sentence and, in the next, having full control of the staff while Celtar is on the offensive. It's possible that you meant this "while his weapon is readied" bit to refer to Celtar. If so, I apologize and, if timing was better, would be more well rested before typing this.

I also wish to bring forward this tidbit: "With it being at such close range and Celtar being committed to his thrust, he shouldn't be able to avoid it and the blast should more-or-less going off in the Jedi's face." So despite it being the same range, Celtar is unable to attack (despite being pulled and using that momentum and not having his weapon/defense messed with, etc) but Xaxis is able to withstand a powerful force push, retain complete control of his weapon, deflect Celtar's blow (taking a scratch on the chest or something minor) and do a powerful blast. I feel you're trying to do way too much and I feel like this is a move to downplay any potential damage. If Celtar can't attack, I would argue that Xaxis is unable to attack. Celtar uses that push and his momentum to attack while Xaxis must regain full control of his weapon, stop moving, identify the attack, come up with a defense, move his staff into position, deflect the attack, and then do a blast in Celtar's face. I feel that, given that Xaxis is fully on the defensive at this point and given that he has, at most, 2/3rds of a second to respond, this is way too much and would argue that, at a minimum, the amount of actions needs to be toned down. At a maximum, I would argue that the amount of damage received needs to increase to an incapacitating amount.

 

[The Good Doctor]

So I didn't state (due to my own fault, I can admit) which side I was pushing the staff towards and you specify the left

I know you hit the 'very end of my staff' but wouldn't it have to recoil somewhere to even spin? I'm not sure how to even sell this if it's not that. Granted, maybe it should have went to the right or something, but idk. I removed the left part

Anyways, I made some edits that should address everything else. Basically I let the weapon be disarmed from the force of the push and I went for a dodge instead, and end my post with me drawing a lightsaber. Given that force-users innately have better reflexes and can dodge/deflect blaster shots at a meter or so and I'm not wasting time fighting to get a weapon stablized and used. I took more damage too. This post should be reasonable.

 

[Fyston]

Not #sidestep! Anyway, that works for me and I'm sorry if I came across as an asshole, I wasn't attempting to be one

 

[Undine]

@christhebarker If you have any questions concerning my most recent post feel free to ask.​

 

[Fyston]

Am hoping to get a post up later tonight as I'm still on the road but @Lightspeed ,what hip is your character's lightsaber on before he draws it?

 

[The Good Doctor]

my first post specifies it was stored on his left hip