Feminism and Gender Equality

[Brandon Rhea]

"Unit cohesion" is the same argument that was used against desegregating the military. It's the same argument that was used against ending Don't Ask, Don't Tell.

The unit got over it. The unit changed.

 

[Jax Vos]

The physical gap between men and women isn't really that meaningful in a combat scenario. Honestly a woman can compensate with effort, and you won't be benching half a ton every day anyway. We use guns to fight Things now. We don't beat things to death with hammers. I'm pretty sure it doesn't really matter .

But to the people insisting women are inferior to men in physicality and in combat:

Spoiler

This woman would like a word with you

Pray she isn't on her period​

Uh...I'm pretty sure that's photo shopped

 

[Mr.BossMan]

If someone is shooting at me, I don't care if a woman if shooting back at them.

This coming from the guy who said he'd rather call the police then carry a gun in case his house gets robbed.

The physical gap between men and women isn't really that meaningful in a combat scenario. Honestly a woman can compensate with effort, and you won't be benching half a ton every day anyway. We use guns to fight Things now. We don't beat things to death with hammers. I'm pretty sure it doesn't really matter .

Have you ever worked out with a group of Marines? Trust me, physicality does matter.

Plus when in combat you must be able to carry many things. Your rifle, side arm, water, ammo, your combat vest, and all your other gear. Which it all adds up. Plus if your buddy goes down, then you gotta carry his ass as well. No man left behind.

Physical standards matter.

"Unit cohesion" is the same argument that was used against desegregating the military. It's the same argument that was used against ending Don't Ask, Don't Tell.

The unit got over it. The unit changed.

Desegregation of the military was to include men. Not women. Mainly black men in the Vietnam war.

The unit is fine how it is America has one of the best military in the world, if not the best. So riddle me this Batman:

Why fix what ain't broken?

 

[Painus]

FYI the Marine Corps is still the only segregated branch of the military, at least as far as recruit training goes. Gender integration for all military fields was to go into effect 1JAN2016 unless a reason why it cannot be implemented was offered.

So far there have been zero female attendees to the USMC Infantry Officer Course that have passed of the 29 who tried.

 

[Outlander]

The unit is fine how it is America has one of the best military in the world, if not the best.

Actually, it's probably the ludicrous amounts of cash we dump into our military.

 

[Nor'baal]

Yes, I would rather call the police than murder someone.

Oorah?

But fundamentally, isn't that what the Law Enforcement folks are for, to.....enforce the law?

 

[Green Ranger]

How did this get sidetracked onto women in military roles? Like, this is such a tiny thing, and it's got so little bearing on the larger argument, that focusing entirely on it is a complete waste of effort.

It's a thing, it's happening, it's going to continue happening, and too bad for those who disagree. Time to move on to a more meaningful discussion imo

 

[+SpaceJesus+]

Agreed.

More soldiers = More guns on my side

That's all that really matters

 

[Algarus]

Agreed.

More soldiers = More guns on my side

That's all that really matters

Jesus has spoken.

 

[Sinbi]

I've largely refrained from intervening here because some of the competing subjectivities and backbiting struck me as largely unproductive if not somewhat mystifying pace the structural processes involved in sexism --such as it is. I will make a few observations by way of Sinbi:

Mssr. Sinbi:

I agree with you about the wage gap (to an extent.) The seventy-seven percent figure is derived in a mathematically careless way and does not necessarily account for dynamics such as stochasticity, statistical hysteresis, etc.

However the general defenses against a wage gap are uneven:

1. Women don't choose high paying jobs at the same rate that men do -- This is subbing in one normative argument with another. We don't really have a lot of granular data as to why women make the choices they do. We do know however that women tend to have a harder time advancing in the business world and I've run LOESS regressions where the expected proficiency of a female STEM student (measured by say GRE scores, etc.) don't really match up all that well with their expected outcomes.

So let's dive into some of the data: An older BLS report points out through the power of bivariate data smoothing (MATH!) that the largest portion of the data indicates a concentration of wage disparities in female-dominated sectors and not necessarily gender (though of course there is still a disparity even within the same sector) as the largest single factor in the wage gap (but one which does not explain its totality and which still leaves some portion of potential sexism, or alienation, or space aliens to amend any gestalt explanation.)

In this regard, the defense is somewhat correct but more importantly (and somewhat ominously for the integrity of future arguments along this vein), it substitutes another potential vector for sexism for other factors that may prove to bedevil us as well. For example supposing that the wage gap consists largely of differing percentages of men and women in fields with unequal compensation, a few questions necessarily arise: is that distribution natural or attributable in at least some part to sexism? And if it is not, is the disparity in compensation necessarily fair? Are we valuing "feminine work" in the way we should?

2. Time worked. This argument actually does account for some moiety of the gap, but the BLS datasets show that difference narrowing to a ten percent wage gap. Still substantial.

3. The arguments do not consider ways in which women still get under-compensated relative to men who (may) work longer hours or (may) take on more dangerous jobs. Child-rearing, housekeeping, etc. are all essential and essentially unpaid work that women bear the brunt of. Again. Under-valued "feminine" work? I've changed my girls' diapers more times than I can say, and my perspective is obviously... different.

4. Counterarguments tend to be short on math (aside from the BLS dataset which more or less concedes some kind of wage gap epiphenomena) explaining or getting particularly in-depth with the data. Not to tip my hand but this is mostly because of an irrational private market which due to profit motive and competitive marginalities requires some modicum of secrecy in salary and wage rates.

5. This dearth of data presents --to some degree-- an epistemological and statistical conspiracy against clarity on wages. Instead arguments tend to be temulent with the same type of prejudices (for or against; either classical liberal, conservative, ordoliberal, social democrat) that signify for wider (and meaningless) internecine struggles between one bourgeois faction and another. If middle-class feminists are not being entirely consistent or intellectually honest, neither are the self-appointed tribunes sparring with them. Not entirely at least.

6. These arguments tend to ignore circumstantial or ancillary data (such as women being disproportionately in poverty --sometimes on the order of 37% more(!)-- than men.) that suggests some kind of wage, wealth, etc. lacuna.

7. There's been least one (here) study holding most of the factors cited constant. The unexplained gap persists (and on the order of seven percent if not higher depending on other values held constant.)

Indeed, from the data I've looked at and barring playing with a lot of eigenvalues and other math stuff, the difference persists around the 7-15ish% magnitude and strikes me on a visceral level as more or less correct.

As high as the labeling sold? No. Self-correcting? In some ways and sectors yes. In others... well ambiguous data is ambiguous. And sobering.

Is this 7-15% range still a substantial value? Yes. Around three thousand (or more) dollars a year taking the average wage indexing used by the Social Security Administration.

Is this to say that other issues that also arise from looking at the data (such as racial gaps) are subsumed by the patriarchy or whatever schemata liberal feminism prefers (correct descriptively, nonsensical analytically)? No. And as noted, I think there can be reasonable disagreements on the data and what it means. Whether it exists? I think the preponderance of evidence speaks for itself.

I think you've gotten a bit of heat on that (with some good factual posts along the way), but I don't think I'll defend you on your digressions on the nature of violence pace men and women (women are still disproportionately the victims of domestic violence which is endemically under-reported. I am assuming good faith on your part, but some of your jabs are gratuitous and unnecessary (though I will presume you are simply arguing for a larger feminist-skeptic meta-narrative in good faith.)

As for you and everyone else...

The tone in here overall has been uneven but I am not one to criticize tone unless it detracts from a scientific, positivist, and empirical approach to the problem (assisted and deepened by the necessary and frankly moving personal recollections I have read here.) In a perfect world, people might treat you with less rancor (though of course, some of the data about poverty --male and female--, racial injustice, gender injustice etc. suggest far more pressing needs in a perfect world) but I cannot blame a lot of them that, in the parlance of my grandpappy "charge the mound 'cuz they got skin in the game junior."

With that being said, I would remind you that simply being engaged in good faith (as GABA inter alia have done to you) is far more a mark of respect than abiding by abstract Queensberry rules. We should always keep Victor Hugo's dictum in mind that the easy thing is to be kind; far harder still to be just.

Regards,

Prospero

After deciphering the language of the birds and communicating with higher beings, taking a pilgrimage to Jerusalem and then Mecca to find the legendary third prophet of the Abrahamic religions (His name is Doug, he's cool) and studying under his holy knowledge...

After traveling all over Asia and following the eightfold path so I could meet Buddha and meditate with him to learn true oneness and turn away from earthly possessions...

After Blue Skadoo'ing my way into a copy of the Art of War to meet and be tutored by Sun Tzu in the logistics of warfare...

After being abducted by aliens that probed me in more ways than I am comfortable admitting to, and being implanted with intelligence and reading comprehension boosting cyberware...

After meeting a time traveler that lent me his powers but only so I could attend every college that exists, has existed, and ever will exist, and travelling to the center of the universe and absorbing the knowledge of a small Armadillo that resides there on a little red stool...

I have gained the ability to read that shit.

Joking. Alright, we in this..

In the interest of me being a dick, I'll hop around and ignore the listing order.

You state that the study done by the AAUW holds the gap at around 7 - 15% when taking all of the factors stated into account. The study is a farce. Allow me to explain why:

The AAUW's 6.6 cents, that is, an 83 (buried deep in the report they state it's actually 92, which is still wrong.) percentage in earnings, is predicated on their broad occupational categories that go into "Other white Collar". For example, they include "social sciences". Know what social sciences include? Both economics and sociology majors. Economics majors have a median income of 70,000 boonbucks, and 66% of them are men. Sociology majors? 40,000, and 68% of them are ladies. They include a whole slew of skewing occupations, like male athletes vs. female librarians. These are not comparisons between people who do the same work, brochacho. Want a link? It's the one you posted.

In reality, the adjusted percentage is 4.8 - 7.1% gap in wages, which if you do the math (because I'm bad at it) is peanuts, leaves little room for "discrimination", and is steadily shrinking over the years. Also, if that article from above is factual at all, we can add the possibility of women being less likely to negotiate salaries to that every shrinking narrative space.

You insinuate that women being in poverty "--sometimes on the order of 37% more(!)-- than men." has something to do with the pay discrepancy (which it technically does, but you imply it is also a sexist issue), but it's like you forgot, even though you stated it at the beginning of your arguments, that women go into lower paying fields than men on average, and many more women than men are stay-at-home parents, so the poverty percentages are bound to be skewed in their direction. You also neglect to mention the usual percentage if that discrepancy per state is somewhere between 4 to 10%. Hell, in Wyoming, they're equally impoverished. Might be wrong on those last percentages, but the average is much lower than the buzz statement that was slipped in.

Are you seriously arguing that women not being paid for taking care of their homes and families is sexist? Cleaning is not hard work, it is time consuming work. Changing diapers isn't even that bad as long as you aren't scared of piss and shit and wear gloves, and wash up afterwards. Also, "feminine work"? The reason why when a man and a woman live together, the woman ends up doing most of the cleaning a good majority of the time, is that men have higher tolerance for messes in comparison to women. Thus, women choose to clean up. Why more women don't ask their husbands/boyfriends to clean up a little more is beyond me. Have you been to a bachelor's flat? Gross.

Managing children during newborn (sleep deprivation) and toddler (constant vigilance) phases can be stressful, but nowhere in your link does it state that men are not along for that ride. They split the work. Raising a child is a joint-effort, they share the headaches and laughs, unless they're a single parent then it's just kind of terrible until they're teenagers and then it gets worse. but regardless, it was left out. These jobs should be appreciated, but more so because they cause a woman to be less flexible if she has an occupation or wants to do something with her free time, than the oh so terrible drudgery of vacuuming. This by no means is the sole reason why women have inflexible schedules. Speaking of being less flexible...

Women do not (on average) have more flexible schedules than men. Elaine McCrate, who is cited as a source to a final report on the wage gap defines flexibility in the workplace "as an arrangement that permits workers to leave work temporarily without informing their supervisors, and allows flexible work hours (e.g., undefined arrival or departure times)." Many posit (and you imply, and yes I realize I'm taking a lot of implications, feel free to correct me) women are "crowded" into lower paying jobs because they want more flexibility. Based on McCrate's definition, however, those with more authority have higher pay and more flexibility. Women are autonomous and free to choose what they want.

Women having a harder time, as you put it, getting promoted in private sector establishments (In... Norway. Wait, are you Norwegian? This is Norwegian. We might have some conflicting information if so, but I'll go on), but apparently have an easier time doing so when there is female representation in executive positions, can be seen in two lights:

One, the representation presents a more fair and less discriminatory environment.

Two, and this is using the logic one would follow by glancing at the first view in regards to the woman bringing "diversity and a less discriminatory environment" to a place where men are more prominent (and thus obviously super sexist), the woman discriminates and chooses more females to promote based on favoritism.

Both of these are heavily biased views. Neither of them are concrete. Flexibility is also something executives look for in prospective promotees. Is that a word? Eh. This is why many female CEOs or any high ranking woman within any company almost always had hired help dealing with all domestic matters.

Men are still in the majority of victims of violent crime. What I stated was not incorrect. But, genuinely, thank you for the benefit of the doubt. Simply putting things into perspective and I find fear mongering to be very distasteful.

On the topic of tone? Eh. People get mad, it's all good. Whether they think they're righteous in their anger or not is irrelevant if the person on the receiving end of the.. err, fury? Fury. If the person on the receiving end isn't too bothered by it. However, I do like things to progress, and will attempt to point things out in order to make that happen.
Your grandad sounds cool. You're pretty cool too.

Sooo....

Are we done? Was that the final boss? Do I change my sig to "Dhampir Slayer"?

Spoiler: All jokes aside

This has been and probably will continue to be an informative experience for me, as I hope it is for you.
Yes that was a "Hope it was good for you too." innuendo in the serious box.
I don't follow rules.

 

[Outlander]

Is boonbucks a homestuck reference? @Sinbi

 

[Sinbi]

Is boonbucks a homestuck reference? @Sinbi

I heard a friend say it once. I liked it. So, it wasn't intentional.

 

[Brandon Rhea]

Why fix what ain't broken?

Again, you could make the same argument about desegregation or ending DADT. The fact that those included men are irrelevant. They were men that a significant portion of the unit were supremely uncomfortable with. The unit got over it.

 

[+SpaceJesus+]

Uh...I'm pretty sure that's photo shopped

Spoiler

We want to think it is, but trust me. This is a thing.

 

[Ferre]

Sooo....
This has been and probably will continue to be an informative experience for me, as I hope it is for you.
​

As I have said before...

This has gotten a lot better as far as I am aware. I'm not as familiar with it. Still a huge gap in the entertainment industry, but there are more factors to that gap.

Well I became familiar with it. Opened my mind, learned new things, procrastinated work...

If you really want to learn here is a nice 2016 piece of the Gender Wage Gap

As I can practically already hear you cherry picking from across the computer, let me be clear, this piece is neutral to the argument and to just take what you want from it to prove only what you want to believe would be a waste of time and probably make the authors roll in their future graves.

That being said, let me summarize (Though read it, because I sure as hell don't want to have spent the last hour in vain)
1.) The United States was a world leader in implementing equal employment opportunity policy as the first economically advanced nation to pass and implement antidiscrimination laws and regulations.
2.) Gender Gap is close (Even in some areas men are paid more than women) (Woaaaah what? Radical)
3.) There is a Gender Gap, and it is largely unfavorable to women for a variety of reasons.

You can choose to share to reasons with me as you see legitimate and fit. I read it so I won't be surprised. (Whatever helps you sleep at night bro)
but the one little thing I want you to gain from this is: THERE IS A WAGE GAP

In "the interest of being a dick" and not wanting this poor wage gap horse beat to death for much longer, if you have any questions further about this, PM me and I'll hook you up with an economics professor and enroll you in a math class.

And since you can't communicate well without a photo.

Spoiler

 

[Mr.BossMan]

How did this get sidetracked onto women in military roles?

I voiced my opinion that women should not be in combat roles and everyone wanted to know my reasoning. I told them. Then they tried to tell me how I was wrong. And so on and so forth.

 

[Mr.BossMan]

Now slightly off topic but a thought entered my mind. In my opinion the most main stream thing that slanders women in general is

Music!

By far....​

 

[Sinbi]

As I have said before...



Well I became familiar with it. Opened my mind, learned new things, procrastinated work...

If you really want to learn here is a nice 2016 piece of the Gender Wage Gap

As I can practically already hear you cherry picking from across the computer, let me be clear, this piece is neutral to the argument and to just take what you want from it to prove only what you want to believe would be a waste of time and probably make the authors roll in their future graves.

That being said, let me summarize (Though read it, because I sure as hell don't want to have spent the last hour in vain)
1.) The United States was a world leader in implementing equal employment opportunity policy as the first economically advanced nation to pass and implement antidiscrimination laws and regulations.
2.) Gender Gap is close (Even in some areas men are paid more than women) (Woaaaah what? Radical)
3.) There is a Gender Gap, and it is largely unfavorable to women for a variety of reasons.

You can choose to share to reasons with me as you see legitimate and fit. I read it so I won't be surprised. (Whatever helps you sleep at night bro)
but the one little thing I want you to gain from this is: THERE IS A WAGE GAP

In "the interest of being a dick" and not wanting this poor wage gap horse beat to death for much longer, if you have any questions further about this, PM me and I'll hook you up with an economics professor and enroll you in a math class.

And since you can't communicate well without a photo.

Spoiler

Okay. Firstly,
Adorable dog. Now that we've gotten the important part out of the way..

I'm not arguing against the existence of a wage gap, I'm arguing against the existence of THE WAGE GAP and its supposed sexist correlations that suggest women do not have equal pay for the same work done by men. You dismiss errors I've pointed out before, calling it cherry-picking, which is fine and dandy, but the incongruities in the "evidence" brought forth stand.

I'll agree with you on this horse being beaten to death though, it's getting old.

 

[Ferre]

I'm not arguing against the existence of a wage gap

Great, my work here is done and I can ascend back to ignoring my threads.

 

[Sinbi]

Great, my work here is done and I can ascend back to ignoring my threads.

Looks like the message was lost along the way and you got confused. Glad I could clear my position up for ya.