Letting the Cat out the Bag OOC

[Faded]

@Caught in Strangereal @KinkyPrawn @samdragon @Ediwa @ByakuyaXVTogami

Okay, so I know that there's going to be plenty of questions on this last post and the two autohits in question. So let me explain. The two autohits are Bya's attack as well as Jay's second burst of shots.

The grounds for Bya's attack as an autohit are described in these two rulings:

Here and Here

Basically, Caught, the reason for this is two fold. Your defense against Roman's attacks are sound and reasonable. However, your defense against Kynigos' attack is not an actual defense but rather a theorized defense. You write what you could do and what you're prepared to do, but not an actual defense against the said attack. This is reflected in the two previous rulings which dictate that a theorized defense is not applicable. Additionally, Roman's defense against the blaster bolt interrupts your subsequent actions and since you do not have a secondary defense in play to protect Revora, it counts as an auto-hit.

As for the autohit against Jay, his rifle has an optimal range of 100m. He is firing at you from within 70. While you side-stepped the first volley, you mention no real defense against the second. Just saying that it would hit the ceiling due to recoil is inadequate. Why would it hit the ceiling? Are you doing something to alter his shots? No, if not, then his shots would not miss. They can only miss if you do an action. You specifically state doing an action against the first volley, but not the second.

As no defense is written, it is therefore an autohit.

Feel free to have Kinky and others chime in as well. I'm open to reasoning, but after I analyzed your last post and read through prior rulings, It seems that it has some gaping holes in it, namely an inadequate defense against both Bya and Ediwa's attacks.

 

[Caught in Strangereal]

@Faded can you quote me the section you feel is a theorized defense

 

[Faded]

@Faded can you quote me the section you feel is a theorized defense

Sure

She stood up ready to begin moving after the strike. If the rampaging sith strike wasn't interrupted she would be ready to raise one of her forearms to deflect each forearm plated with phrik. Due to the nature of the strike and where he wanted to target the only way to do so was a downward diagonal slash. If he struck for her left side she would raise her left forearm to deflect and use her right arm to perform a forward thrust with her vibrosword straight into his gut. If it was attacking her right side should deflect with her right arm and use her pistol to take a point blank shot into his unarmored leg.

The above is an excerpt from the paragraph that deals with the defense against Bya. While the nature of the entire paragraph is theorized, I've highlighted specific points which should help reinforce it. You're not alone, the Admin have ruled on this prior so it happens quite often. In fact, it happened to me in one my PvPs against FTL earlier in the TL.

The statement: Ready to begin is not the same as "moving after the strike". Same thing with "Would be ready" is not the same as you writing "She moved her forearms upwards in a position to block the incoming strike with phrik plating".

 

[Caught in Strangereal]

@Faded ok the initial theorized defense has been clarified now to talk about some other things I wanted to bring up.

First I feel like your defense against my attack is insufficient. Reading your post it's feels like you're trying to treat my attack as happening right after the dodge not simultaneously as a specified in my post. If revora is dodging your saber then there is a sword heading for his legs . The delay between you finishing your swing and revora finishing hers would be minimal and split second.

This brings me to your force attack. First is it a force push or force lightning? Secondly how is Roman able to do this in such a short time. He would need to register his attack missed, there's a sword coming at him, change his concentration from attacking with his saber to conjuring the force, and using the force in under a second?

While you did mention being prepared to counter in your prior post that doesn't specify you preparing a force push or force lightning. I don't believe that Roman would have enough time or the ability to concentrate fast enough defend like you say he is. Therefore he would still be in range and get hit. Which would result in him likely losing a leg and his balance and making it difficult to counter my subsequent attack against Roman.


As for Ediwa's attacks firstly it's a conditional defense. I'm saying that if bya attacks then I'm using the fact that he raced in front for a melee and would therefore be liable for taking friendly fire as a defense. If you wanted me to take that auto hit from earlier from bya then my this would be my defense not the dodge.

If bya did get interrupted I wrote that other conditional defense to cover my bases. Ediwa specified there only being a short delay between his shots I'm saying his attempt therefore would have the flaw that in order to have such a short delay he wouldn't have to time to let the gun recoil to settle after a really quick two shot burst and follow up. The gun kick up causing the bolts to go high and because they are missing go above revy's head they would hit the ceiling behind Revy due to traveling upwards

 

[KinkyPrawn]

I'm gonna have to agree with Strange's post, @Faded

Your defense really doesn't feel plausible in any way. Her attacks are simultaneous, not separate at all. On top of that, heavy armour wouldn't slow her down to the point where she is slow enough for you to process what is happening, do an entirely vague force attack that we can brush off as doing nothing since you didn't specify, and block a point blank blaster shot. These attacks are way too on top of each other and prolly all happening in a second, so reacting in time to them is highly unlikely. In the words of a wise old PvP admin: "Your character's not that good..."

Plus those autohits are gonna have to go. She's using Bya as a human shield and also specified dodging, so that second volley isn't gonna be an autohit. Also, Bya's attack won't be an autohit as well.

Edit: Also @Ediwa recoil isn't something you can simply brush off, especially at that range. The gun might be as tall as a small person and literally built like a brick but it's still a burst fire rifle. It'll still kick with each burst, and firing twice in one second without accounting for the recoil will most likely kick the weapon off target just like any other burst fire or full-auto weapon. Unless you brace and take appropriate action to counter the recoil, that second volley is gonna go high at 70 meters.

Edit-the annoying sequel:

Roman smirked as his sulfuric glare settled upon Sumas who had traversed the distance with his jetpack, crimson saber held defensively while a torrent of red lightning cackled around his left hand, hopefully serving to make the Mandalorians second guess their charge.

Roman would only have a glimpse of Sumas given he's standing a bit recessed into the hallway, not openly in the corridor.

 

[Ediwa]

The shots were aimed at her with delay between them, not gonna miss due recoil.

 

[KinkyPrawn]

The shots were aimed at her with delay between them, not gonna miss due recoil.

There is already a short delay between shots in a rifle. So saying that there was a short delay between bursts is redundant. That is the point I'm trying to highlight. So his shots would be going high.

Disregard this part. Let's keep the ball rolling B-)

 

[Faded]

@Faded ok the initial theorized defense has been clarified now to talk about some other things I wanted to bring up.

First I feel like your defense against my attack is insufficient. Reading your post it's feels like you're trying to treat my attack as happening right after the dodge not simultaneously as a specified in my post. If revora is dodging your saber then there is a sword heading for his legs . The delay between you finishing your swing and revora finishing hers would be minimal and split second.

This brings me to your force attack. First is it a force push or force lightning? Secondly how is Roman able to do this in such a short time. He would need to register his attack missed, there's a sword coming at him, change his concentration from attacking with his saber to conjuring the force, and using the force in under a second?

While you did mention being prepared to counter in your prior post that doesn't specify you preparing a force push or force lightning. I don't believe that Roman would have enough time or the ability to concentrate fast enough defend like you say he is. Therefore he would still be in range and get hit. Which would result in him likely losing a leg and his balance and making it difficult to counter my subsequent attack against Roman.


As for Ediwa's attacks firstly it's a conditional defense. I'm saying that if bya attacks then I'm using the fact that he raced in front for a melee and would therefore be liable for taking friendly fire as a defense. If you wanted me to take that auto hit from earlier from bya then my this would be my defense not the dodge.

If bya did get interrupted I wrote that other conditional defense to cover my bases. Ediwa specified there only being a short delay between his shots I'm saying his attempt therefore would have the flaw that in order to have such a short delay he wouldn't have to time to let the gun recoil to settle after a really quick two shot burst and follow up. The gun kick up causing the bolts to go high and because they are missing go above revy's head they would hit the ceiling behind Revy due to traveling upwards

I'm gonna have to agree with Strange's post, @Faded

Your defense really doesn't feel plausible in any way. Her attacks are simultaneous, not separate at all. On top of that, heavy armour wouldn't slow her down to the point where she is slow enough for you to process what is happening, do an entirely vague force attack that we can brush off as doing nothing since you didn't specify, and block a point blank blaster shot. These attacks are way too on top of each other and prolly all happening in a second, so reacting in time to them is highly unlikely. In the words of a wise old PvP admin: "Your character's not that good..."

Plus those autohits are gonna have to go. She's using Bya as a human shield and also specified dodging, so that second volley isn't gonna be an autohit. Also, Bya's attack won't be an autohit as well.

Edit: Also @Ediwa recoil isn't something you can simply brush off, especially at that range. The gun might be as tall as a small person and literally built like a brick but it's still a burst fire rifle. It'll still kick with each burst, and firing twice in one second without accounting for the recoil will most likely kick the weapon off target just like any other burst fire or full-auto weapon. Unless you brace and take appropriate action to counter the recoil, that second volley is gonna go high at 70 meters.

Edit-the annoying sequel:


Roman would only have a glimpse of Sumas given he's standing a bit recessed into the hallway, not openly in the corridor.

Edited out the first autohit as per discussion on Discord, the second one still stands. Jay clearly wrote a delay in taking shots, the burst fire rifle fires two bolts with each trigger pull. The rifle is still being used in optimal range by a trained soldier; this is not a repeater weapon in which holding the trigger down for fully automatic makes the spread and recoil inaccurate.

Its possible to dodge the bolts, yes, no one is refuting that. Had Revora simply added that the side step placed her out of the trajectory of both bursts, would have been okay. But she didn't...as far as this stands now, the defense is only applicable to the first volley. Revora is taking NO measures to avoid the second burst and instead just saying that it goes into the ceiling or misses. That is not an adequate defense.

If she had written something like this: "The recoil of the burst fire weapon had to be accounted for, thus Jay's second shots aiming higher than intended and as Revora strafed to the side, they would miss completely". That would have been an Ok defense.

As for my defense, Im not sure how fast you think Revora is. This is not a large Ogre wielding some two handed axe in an overhead swing; its a saber slash, meant to be quick and seamless. Its targeted at shoulder level, she's ducking underneath it. Side-stepping or backpedaling would have been quicker. She can't clear her saber at the same time Roman does his, otherwise she'd get decapitated. Its a simple defense, a pivot on the left leg to move it out of the way while a force push shoves her farther during the conclusion of her strike. Force users can block singular bolts all the time, they can block burst fire bolts as well, each of which is traveling immediately after the first (Ex: Quickdraw bolts).

Your defense against the saber slash is fine, but there's nothing inherently special or unique about it that it can't also be countered.

 

[KinkyPrawn]

Edited out the first autohit as per discussion on Discord, the second one still stands. Jay clearly wrote a delay in taking shots, the burst fire rifle fires two bolts with each trigger pull. The rifle is still being used in optimal range by a trained soldier; this is not a repeater weapon in which holding the trigger down for fully automatic makes the spread and recoil inaccurate.

Its possible to dodge the bolts, yes, no one is refuting that. Had Revora simply added that the side step placed her out of the trajectory of both bursts, would have been okay. But she didn't...as far as this stands now, the defense is only applicable to the first volley. Revora is taking NO measures to avoid the second burst and instead just saying that it goes into the ceiling or misses. That is not an adequate defense.

If she had written something like this: "The recoil of the burst fire weapon had to be accounted for, thus Jay's second shots aiming higher than intended and as Revora strafed to the side, they would miss completely". That would have been an Ok defense.

As for my defense, Im not sure how fast you think Revora is. This is not a large Ogre wielding some two handed axe in an overhead swing; its a saber slash, meant to be quick and seamless. Its targeted at shoulder level, she's ducking underneath it. Side-stepping or backpedaling would have been quicker. She can't clear her saber at the same time Roman does his, otherwise she'd get decapitated. Its a simple defense, a pivot on the left leg to move it out of the way while a force push shoves her farther during the conclusion of her strike. Force users can block singular bolts all the time, they can block burst fire bolts as well, each of which is traveling immediately after the first (Ex: Quickdraw bolts).

Your defense against the saber slash is fine, but there's nothing inherently special or unique about it that it can't also be countered.

Ok after mulling over it and reading and other stuff, I agree Ediwa gets an autohit opportunity in this round. Strange might have trouble dealing with that.

As for your own defense, I still don't agree with it. Roman might not be an ogre but compared to her he might as well be. He's a lot bigger than Revy, so it's still plausible to be a bit quicker than Roman. As for ducking, I don't think that's an argument at all. It might not be quicker but it will definitely not be slower than side-stepping or backpedaling. Plus he was already moving forward. He committed to charging ahead and swinging at Revy's head. He's locked into moving forward with full force. Suddenly stopping and pivoting might not go down that smoothly. As for the force push, I doubt he'll have enough time to manage a force push in the split second Revy ducks down AND swings simultaneously. At least not quickly enough to completely nullify her attack. Her attack is extremely quick. I doubt he'll have the ability to process what's happening in that moment.

Of course there's chance to compromise. You don't need to be out immediately, but totally avoiding damage is also not looking fair. Taking partial damage like a slash to the one leg might be a fair agreement

 

[Faded]

Ok after mulling over it and reading and other stuff, I agree Ediwa gets an autohit opportunity in this round. Strange might have trouble dealing with that.

As for your own defense, I still don't agree with it. Roman might not be an ogre but compared to her he might as well be. He's a lot bigger than Revy, so it's still plausible to be a bit quicker than Roman. As for ducking, I don't think that's an argument at all. It might not be quicker but it will definitely not be slower than side-stepping or backpedaling. Plus he was already moving forward. He committed to charging ahead and swinging at Revy's head. He's locked into moving forward with full force. Suddenly stopping and pivoting might not go down that smoothly. As for the force push, I doubt he'll have enough time to manage a force push in the split second Revy ducks down AND swings simultaneously. At least not quickly enough to completely nullify her attack. Her attack is extremely quick. I doubt he'll have the ability to process what's happening in that moment.

Of course there's chance to compromise. You don't need to be out immediately, but totally avoiding damage is also not looking fair. Taking partial damage like a slash to the one leg might be a fair agreement

LoL, what head swing? The attack is written as a slash at the shoulders. I think that's where a majority of this confusion lies, you think Im going for a decapitation, when thats not the intended outcome. (Bya's attack on the other hand was written as a potential decapitation). Roman is 6'3", Revora is 5'0"; she can't attack at the same range of engagement, she has to duck and get inside his reach in order to use her vibroblade. That's plenty of room for a pivot and a force push to disengage both combatants, which is essentially how the defense is written.

 

[KinkyPrawn]

LoL, what head swing? The attack is written as a slash at the shoulders. I think that's where a majority of this confusion lies, you think Im going for a decapitation, when thats not the intended outcome. (Bya's attack on the other hand was written as a potential decapitation). Roman is 6'3", Revora is 5'0"; she can't attack at the same range of engagement, she has to duck and get inside his reach in order to use her vibroblade. That's plenty of room for a pivot and a force push to disengage both combatants, which is essentially how the defense is written.

Roman attacked from her right side, keeping his body out of the path of the bolts his ally had sent towards her back. Crimson lightsaber swung in a horizontal manner from her right to left near shoulder level.

You didn't specify at all that you were aiming to slash her chest. You merely mentioned slicing near shoulder level. Given the size difference as well as the usual point people aim at when swinging near the shoulders, I think it's fair to say everybody was reading it as being an attempt of decapitation. The argument you're putting up now makes it sound like you're trying to exploit the vagueness of your own post which didn't come off as vague at all. And having to ask for clarification on every action isn't an argument because it's not supposed to be needed to begin with.

 

[Faded]

You didn't specify at all that you were aiming to slash her chest. You merely mentioned slicing near shoulder level. Given the size difference as well as the usual point people aim at when swinging near the shoulders, I think it's fair to say everybody was reading it as being an attempt of decapitation. The argument you're putting up now makes it sound like you're trying to exploit the vagueness of your own post which didn't come off as vague at all. And having to ask for clarification on every action isn't an argument because it's not supposed to be needed to begin with.

LoL, its a simple slash at shoulders level man.

I don't know why you believe a level 1 NFS in heavy beskar'gam is going to have any mobility to contend against a higher leveled FS wearing medium armor. Its just not possible. If she's concentrating on clearing the blade as it sails over her head while not being decapitated from a shoulder level strike, then her blade isn't going to be executing on split second timing.

Close quarters Saber fights are always based on quick jabs, thrusts, slashes, etc.. There's nothing written in my defense that makes it beyond a simple and rudimentary maneuver.

 

[Faded]

@GABAdactyl @Loco

Could I ask for a 12 hour extension on Bya's behalf please? He's at rehersal and doesnt have the opportunity to write a post prior to his Time out.

 

[Loco]

@GABAdactyl @Loco

Could I ask for a 12 hour extension on Bya's behalf please? He's at rehersal and doesnt have the opportunity to write a post prior to his Time out.

Granted. Keep in mind this is over on the 14th, regardless of outcome.

No lollygagging.

 

[KinkyPrawn]

@ByakuyaXVTogami keep in mind that Sumas fired at him after he used force speed and was running normally at Revy. So it won't interfere with Sumas' aim at all. Especially not at that range and from a level 2 as well.

Also @Ediwa I just noticed that last part of your post about passing the armoury. That run to go all the way around is gonna be roughly 100 meters as well, so he'll be running for quite a bit.

 

[Faded]

@ByakuyaXVTogami keep in mind that Sumas fired at him after he used force speed and was running normally at Revy. So it won't interfere with Sumas' aim at all. Especially not at that range and from a level 2 as well.

Also @Ediwa I just noticed that last part of your post about passing the armoury. That run to go all the way around is gonna be roughly 100 meters as well, so he'll be running for quite a bit.

I dont think Bya is running normally at all, the 10 meters references that he begins to prepare for his strike. Not that he slows down and runs normally. He is using Force speed up until he reaches melee range.

 

[KinkyPrawn]

I dont think Bya is running normally at all, the 10 meters references that he begins to prepare for his strike. Not that he slows down and runs normally. He is using Force speed up until he reaches melee range.

Fair enough. There is mention tho that he's keeping the force concentrated. Given he's already concentrating the force, that would be unnecessary unless he means to keep it prepared to be able to use a force attack in the next round. If that's the case, I think as a level 1 that would interfere with his force speed. BUT I can still see the argument so that's coolio. I can let that slide.

Another issue I have is that it's a level 2 firing at him. I'm pretty sure a level 2 would be able to track and shoot at that range to hit at least more than 1 shot. It's not like he's flying past like the Flash as well, he's still moving at a speed a person can focus on. Not saying he needs to get totally raked, but I'm still sure he'll still get hit by more than a single bolt.


Also just wanna make sure before I work on a reply. @ByakuyaXVTogami is Kyn still attempting to attack or what is he currently doing? Just wanna be sure to avoid further confusion

 

[ByakuyaXVMarkov]

Fair enough. There is mention tho that he's keeping the force concentrated. Given he's already concentrating the force, that would be unnecessary unless he means to keep it prepared to be able to use a force attack in the next round. If that's the case, I think as a level 1 that would interfere with his force speed. BUT I can still see the argument so that's coolio. I can let that slide.

Another issue I have is that it's a level 2 firing at him. I'm pretty sure a level 2 would be able to track and shoot at that range to hit at least more than 1 shot. It's not like he's flying past like the Flash as well, he's still moving at a speed a person can focus on. Not saying he needs to get totally raked, but I'm still sure he'll still get hit by more than a single bolt.


Also just wanna make sure before I work on a reply. @ByakuyaXVTogami is Kyn still attempting to attack or what is he currently doing? Just wanna be sure to avoid further confusion

Defending himself. I didn’t write any attacks in.