SPOILER THREAD: The Last Jedi

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Arcangel

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I may be yelled at for this, while I enjoyed it, it's in the SW universe after all, I felt that rey is becoming a Mary sue who doesn't need any training, every other force user has been trained and she comes along and nah she doesn't need that, what would other older force users know.
Next movie she'll single handedly kill every member of the new order, and every sith, but thats my pessimistic view.
Out of curiosity, because i thought the issue of her being a "Mary Sue" was even less of an issue in TLJ than it was in TFA... What did she actually do that was Mary Sue-ish in the movie?
 

Raydo

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Luke fights Darth Vader, one the greatest duelist of all time, after having Yoda make him run laps in a swamp for a few weeks. It happens.
 

Herrith

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TLJ was just terribly written in my opinion. Too much humor and wasting of every character that could have been unique and interesting, and the inclusion of a bunch of bland and ridiculous characters that had no point.

Such as the purple haired lady who didn't want to reveal her grand plan for whatever friggin' reason.

I wanted to punch her for that so many times, or at least throw a snowball her direction.

Just thought I'd leave this here for someone to toss a brick at me. ;)
 

TheWolfMan

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I've yet to watch the newest movie which has officially dropped but I've recently watched The Last Jedi to prepare myself for the hype I'm sure will come following episode 9. I've watched a few YouTube reactions about The Last Jedi and I must say they've compelled me to return to the site and share my opinion of the film. This site is by far the best place I know of to talk Star Wars so here I am. Let me know if you agree or not. Y'all are the main people I speak with about Star Wars.

Now my initial reaction when I saw this movie when it first came out was positive, I believe I gave it a 7/10 if I remeber correctly. This was probably due to me still having the movie owning my mental capacity with how hyped I was to see it. However, with time and after listening to other peoples views of the movie, I must say I was dead wrong about just how good this movie was. A matter of fact I've come full circle and actually detest Disney for their utterly absurd gutting of Star Wars.

One of my main issues with this film is their portrayal of Luke Skywalker and the complete destruction of his (cannon) well developed character with absolutely no justification. There are multiple points to make in this regard. For instance why is the most optimistic guy in the galaxy, a man capable of seeing the good in his Evil father Vader, suddenly going to stand over his nephew contemplating killing his SISTERS son? That makes no sense. Unless you're Disney and need this forced plot development to make your stories main antagonist Kylo fall deeper into the Dark Side.

Luke is reduced to a cold, cynical, pessimistic hermit which chooses exile on an uninhibited planet while a war (which his sister is fighting as the head of one side and his nephew as the head of another) wages and he does nothing? A matter of fact he says things like "The Jedi must end?" Every time I see him milk that creature and drink it I cringe. Sincerely cringe. It's no wonder Mark Hamill himself said to the director of this film "I fundamentally disagree with your view of Luke." It's sad really because I think he was really trying to tell the fans something. However it's Star Wars and it sells and movie goers did not challenge Disney. No, Luke Skywalker was killed with thunderous applause.

I know this isn't in the Last Jedi but Hans death after thinking about it really did undermine his entire character arc in the original trilogy. Han was a shady smuggler in the original movies but through Princess Leia he's redeemed into a more virtuous, honorable man. Only for this new trilogy to effectively erase ALL of his growth by simply making him turn back into a Smuggler. Seriously this really does harm his character devolpment if you think about it. He goes back to smuggling, leaves his lover Leia, his son Kylo and the rebellion only to go back to the same man he was before he met Leia. It's bad writing for real. I know Han and his death was in The Force Awakens and has almost nothing to do with this movie. However since it's a trilogy, and its Kylos main internal conflict as a character I thought it was worth mentioning as it's a valid point. Han's arc is basically burned and we're made to believe that basically nothing changed in Han. However George Lucas gave us three movies to watch Han grow as a character. What's Disney do? They make one movie and destroy Han's growth. Then have the audacity to use his death as a device for creating the Evil Kylo Ren. Why???

Also, Chewwie is reduced to mere comic relief. A space uber who holds cute little porg animals which are only in this film to sell toys thus making Disney more money. Its a shame really.

Rey is, in almost every single way, a Mary Sue. If you thought she was a Mary Sue in The Force Awakens, (which she was) then in this film her Mary Sue meter is ramped up ten fold. She almost never struggles with anything. Like how can she fly a spaceship? She's a scavenger on Jakuu with no flight experience. How can she speak wookkie? She never met one before Chewwie. In this movie she gets into a mini skirmish with LUKE SKYWALKER and bests him. With no training! She can use all these force abilities with no training. She can beat Kylo Ren, Snokes Imperial Guards and do all of this crazy stuff with no training. It's utterly ridiculous and if someone defends her on this, claiming shes not a Mary Sue I genuinely think they're being willfully blind.

Here's a test:
If someone, on this Site, we're to make a character just like Rey. Any moderator worth their salt would not accept that character. Cause that character would be a Mary Sue, like Rey is.

Next complaint Leia living in the vacuum of space? She should have died there. Even if you accept that she magically has force powers which emerged due to the severe scenario she was placed in, even still, she could not of lived through that. Also, we as an audience are never told Leia has actual force abilities. Never. Luke in Return of the Jedi simply states she's sensitive to the force. I always thought he was meaning like the force is inherent in her, like it is in everyone. That doesn't mean she can force pull herself to safety from the vacuum of space. That's absurd! I'm okay with her having force abilities though, she is a Skywalker after all, but why not explain that to your audience Disney? Why not show us that? All you did was rob us from a deeply emotional moment were we all thought Leia was dead. I'd argue it's lazy writing, cheap, forced writing that undercut that moment.

Now I could say more but this message is getting long so I'll make my next points brief.

In the first ten mins of the film Po's joke to Hux where he calls in to the First Order claiming "sorry I can't hear you" utterly slashes the Dark tone they were building up to. It effectively diminished Hux's character to a bumbling idiot as well. The rest of the movie reinforces the point that Hux is not a conpetent threat we were led to believe from The Force Awakens, but a mere tool to laugh at. Since he leads the First Order it kinda reflects negatively on the entire First Order as well. I felt his character wasn't done justice and it starts in the first 10 mins of the movie, which IMO makes for the main threat of the film to seem less intimidating.

Next point, Finn should have heroically sacrificed himself. If that had happened it would have been the best moment of the movie IMO. The whole scene was set up in the way that we believed he was going to give up his life to delay the First Order so the resistance could have time to figure out an escape plan. However that heroic moment is robbed both from Finn and from the audience by the detestable political mouthpiece Rose. Jesus I hate the character Rose.

Canto Bite was ridiculous. Literally why and the hell was that in the movie? You can wipe that whole sequence from the movie and still hold true to the main plot. It should not of been in there. Honestly it's just Disney virtue signalling to the audience. It's also politicized. Disney's just checking box's at this point on how to sell a movie.

I wonder if anyone else agrees with me? However I've come to the conclusion that Disney is just trying to sell tickets. Making that green! While they care nothing for art and creativity. They spit on George Lucas's lore and world and even us as Star Wars fans in the process. Yet people enjoy this film and trilogy, which is okay as everyones entitled to their opinion. This is simply mine though.

Where do y'all stand?
 

TheWolfMan

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Uh, over it? Its been like 2 years dude.

The new movie is out now, thus finishing the Trilogy. This movie is a part of that trilogy. I decided to speak on it.

It's been four decade's and we still talk about the original movies, using your logic should we not speak on those? I mean after all it's been much longer than two years. Uh, you over that?

Your comment has nothing to do with what I said which makes me think it'd be better if it'd not have been posted at all.

And finally, no, I'm not over it especially since this trilogy is officially cannon.
 

Loco

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"I've yet to watch the newest movie which has officially dropped but I've recently watched The Last Jedi to prepare myself for the hype I'm sure will come following episode 9. I've watched a few YouTube reactions about The Last Jedi and I must say..."

NGL, and at the risk of being unprofessional as a staff member... lolwut? That's possibly the worst intro into a reasonable and well thought out critique I've ever heard in my life, even as a member of the star wars fandom (and administrator of a star wars fandom site).

Personally, I think ep8 is in the top 3 of all star wars films, with R1 as an equal or near second, behind only ESB. And tbh, I think it's because TLJ is so much like ESB. You cant really look at the series as a whole and not see the striking similarity between the two.
 

TheWolfMan

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"I've yet to watch the newest movie which has officially dropped but I've recently watched The Last Jedi to prepare myself for the hype I'm sure will come following episode 9. I've watched a few YouTube reactions about The Last Jedi and I must say..."

NGL, and at the risk of being unprofessional as a staff member... lolwut? That's possibly the worst intro into a reasonable and well thought out critique I've ever heard in my life, even as a member of the star wars fandom (and administrator of a star wars fandom site).

Personally, I think ep8 is in the top 3 of all star wars films, with R1 as an equal or near second, behind only ESB. And tbh, I think it's because TLJ is so much like ESB. You cant really look at the series as a whole and not see the striking similarity between the two.

Well fair point about the intro to my post, good thing I'm not getting paid to review movies. :)

I'm just a fan of the universe George Lucas created expressing my utmost displeasure of Disney's latest fan fiction.

Rouge 1 is the best Disney Star Wars movie yet IMO. Far better in both plot and characters then The Last Jedi. The only negative being I think it dragged on in places, however it's still a superior film. You claim The Last Jedi is similar to Empire Strikes Back which may be true although I'm not sure if I agree. I'm curious as to why you think that. Genuinely curious. Now even if that is true don't you find it odd? Why, if that's true, do you think people watch it or even like it? Defend it even? The Force Awakens is almost certainly an exact replica of A New Hope. Doesn't that ring any alarm bells as to the utter lack of creative effort on the part of Disney?

Which basically is my point. It's why I got on here again and posted that critique. The new movie is out now and people are going to go watch it. More importantly they'll pay to go see it. Knowing full well that the new sequel Trilogy pales in comparison to the actual pre-established lore. All they're doing is funding a company which is actively and deliberately spitting in the face of Star Wars, it's characters and I'd dare say it's fans.

Now I know people are going to go watch the movies. I'm not fighting that. It's got "Star Wars" on the title afterall; I mean hell people would by toilet paper if it had Star Wars on the title.

However my point is that these movies are NOT true to the Star Wars we've all come to know and appreciate. They destroy the characters we've come to love, such as Luke, Han and Leia and even Chewwie as I've said in my opening post. They actually rewrite the lore of the Jedi. They hammerfist us with virtue signalling and politically correct ideology. They add nothing new to the franchise, literally just rehashing old ideas and concepts. Like how you outlined with episode 8 being similair to episode 5 and how episode 7 is similair to episode 4. Finally the characters they create and bring forth are either Mary Sues(Rey), under developed(Kylo), cut to short(Captain Phasma-Snoke), political mouthpieces(Rose-Holdo) or not allowed to mature(Finn).

Why then call it Star Wars? Why accept it as cannon? Why pay to go see it?

Wait until, I don't know, a buddy gets it on blu-ray or something. Don't give Disney's fan fiction your money. Or worse yet, your support.
 

Green Ranger

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I've yet to watch the newest movie which has officially dropped but I've recently watched The Last Jedi to prepare myself for the hype I'm sure will come following episode 9.

Alright, Ill bite and try to have an actual, proper response to all of this. But first...

I've watched a few YouTube reactions about The Last Jedi and I must say they've compelled me to return to the site and share my opinion of the film.

Now, before I get started, I'm just going to point this line out, because what follows in terms of your critique reads like you're just parroting what you've seen on Youtube. That may not have intentionally been the case, but I do honestly want to ask you to seriously ask yourself: are these your opinions, or are they the opinions of people on Youtube that you've co-opted as your own? Genuinely ask yourself if you've let other people colour your views, because this:

Now my initial reaction when I saw this movie when it first came out was positive, I believe I gave it a 7/10 if I remeber correctly. This was probably due to me still having the movie owning my mental capacity with how hyped I was to see it. However, with time and after listening to other peoples views of the movie, I must say I was dead wrong about just how good this movie was. A matter of fact I've come full circle and actually detest Disney for their utterly absurd gutting of Star Wars.

...makes me think so.

One of my main issues with this film is their portrayal of Luke Skywalker and the complete destruction of his (cannon) well developed character with absolutely no justification. There are multiple points to make in this regard. For instance why is the most optimistic guy in the galaxy, a man capable of seeing the good in his Evil father Vader, suddenly going to stand over his nephew contemplating killing his SISTERS son? That makes no sense. Unless you're Disney and need this forced plot development to make your stories main antagonist Kylo fall deeper into the Dark Side.

So, the thing is....Luke, in Legends, second guesses himself all the time. There is a very real, very significant part of his life post-ROTJ where he doesn't know what he's doing with his life, doubts whether or not to refound the Jedi Order, and then, when he does so, he blames himself when Kyp Durron falls to the Dark Side and Gantoris gets killed, and almsot shuts the whole thing down.

So this whole idea that the film destroys the character of Luke is pretty unfounded.

More accurate would be to say that the film destroys your idea of what Luke should have become. And tbh that's more your issue than a problem with the film.

Luke is reduced to a cold, cynical, pessimistic hermit which chooses exile on an uninhibited planet while a war (which his sister is fighting as the head of one side and his nephew as the head of another) wages and he does nothing? A matter of fact he says things like "The Jedi must end?" Every time I see him milk that creature and drink it I cringe. Sincerely cringe. It's no wonder Mark Hamill himself said to the director of this film "I fundamentally disagree with your view of Luke." It's sad really because I think he was really trying to tell the fans something. However it's Star Wars and it sells and movie goers did not challenge Disney. No, Luke Skywalker was killed with thunderous applause.

Er....Dunno if you caught it, but he did do something. In Luke's mind, he caused the problem in the first place, because he doubted Ben, doubted himself, and for just a brief moment, the Dark Side took him and convinced him killing Ben was the only way. And that was enough to cause everything to fall apart.

So yeah, Luke went into hiding and ran away, because he blamed himself. And given that Ben was one of his first students and his nephew, the expectations were super high. So, yeah, after losing their son, Luke couldn't bear to face Leia or Han.

This is all 100% plausible and true to character. Luke doubted himself pretty much every step of the way in the original trilogy, too. Its been his biggest weakness.

I know this isn't in the Last Jedi but Hans death after thinking about it really did undermine his entire character arc in the original trilogy. Han was a shady smuggler in the original movies but through Princess Leia he's redeemed into a more virtuous, honorable man. Only for this new trilogy to effectively erase ALL of his growth by simply making him turn back into a Smuggler. Seriously this really does harm his character devolpment if you think about it. He goes back to smuggling, leaves his lover Leia, his son Kylo and the rebellion only to go back to the same man he was before he met Leia. It's bad writing for real.

Er....nope. He's never really consistently virtuous or honorable. The entire first act of ROTJ is about saving him from the repercussions of his shady dealings. And, yes, he throws his lot in with the Rebellion for all of five minutes for the Battle of Endor. That's not really a sign that he's changed forever and is going to settle down forever.

He tries the domestic life with Leia for a while, and he chafes under it. And then losing Ben is too much for either Han or Leia to bear, and their relationship breaks under the strain.

This, to me, just sounds like another instance of you have a pre-concieved notion of what Han's story should be. So, again, that's on you. 'They didn't write the character the way I wanted them to' isn't a valid criticism of the film.

Also, Legends Han is utter garbage and is pretty much completely meaningless. And even then he still goes around doing shady stuff for the New Republic. So this idea that he should be this honorable, noble, virtuous guy all of a sudden is completely unfounded.

I know Han and his death was in The Force Awakens and has almost nothing to do with this movie. However since it's a trilogy, and its Kylos main internal conflict as a character I thought it was worth mentioning as it's a valid point. Han's arc is basically burned and we're made to believe that basically nothing changed in Han. However George Lucas gave us three movies to watch Han grow as a character. What's Disney do? They make one movie and destroy Han's growth. Then have the audacity to use his death as a device for creating the Evil Kylo Ren. Why???

See Rise of Skywalker.

Also, Chewwie is reduced to mere comic relief. A space uber who holds cute little porg animals which are only in this film to sell toys thus making Disney more money. Its a shame really.

See Empire Strikes Back.

Rey is, in almost every single way, a Mary Sue. If you thought she was a Mary Sue in The Force Awakens, (which she was) then in this film her Mary Sue meter is ramped up ten fold. She almost never struggles with anything. Like how can she fly a spaceship? She's a scavenger on Jakuu with no flight experience. How can she speak wookkie? She never met one before Chewwie. In this movie she gets into a mini skirmish with LUKE SKYWALKER and bests him. With no training! She can use all these force abilities with no training. She can beat Kylo Ren, Snokes Imperial Guards and do all of this crazy stuff with no training. It's utterly ridiculous and if someone defends her on this, claiming shes not a Mary Sue I genuinely think they're being willfully blind.

Oh no! She beat a ~70 year old man who hasn't held a lightsaber in years and has literally been living as a hermit on an island in seclusion! How OP!

Oh no! She can use the Force without training. Noone in Star Wars ever does that. Like Anakin flying a podracer, or reading cards he can't see with no training. Or Luke calling his lightsaber to him in the Wampa caves with his training being all of 'being zapped by a probe droid while waving a lightsaber around'.

Or Ezra Bridger using the Force to push troopers/boxes without training.

Or Baby Yoda lifting a space rhino. Or healing a dude. Or choking a dude. All while being at the developmental stage of a pre-speaking toddler.

*cough*

As for her piloting. You know that speeder on Jakku? She built that herself. She kept the AT-AT she lived in powered and operable. By herself. She's scavenged starships and military equipment for her entire life to stay alive, by herself.

Also worth mentioning is that she was a child (ten at the oldest) when she was abandoned, so not only did she clearly learn fast, but she's had at least nine years of scavenging experience. That's not just collecting scrap pieces, but also figuring out which parts are valuable, what parts operate which section of what ship, how certain components fit together and hwo they behave and interact with one another.

So she knows a fair bit about piloting by necessity of what she does to make a living and survive. But it's also worth mentioning that she apparently actually taught herself to fly as well in those years.

And yet she still nearly crashes the Falcon while trying to escape. Several times in fact.

If you think she's not struggling throughout the movie, then you're just not paying enough attention.

Here's a test:
If someone, on this Site, we're to make a character just like Rey. Any moderator worth their salt would not accept that character. Cause that character would be a Mary Sue, like Rey is.

Having been a former admin on the site and having RPed here for....too many years, I can categorically say that's not true. And that's not due to lax standards on the site - the characters and writing here have always been of an amazing quality. Or at least, they have been in recent memory. (When we were all like 13 and newly come over from the old LucasArts RP boards for KOTOR2, different story, of course. >.>)

What I might suggest, however, is that based on your post, that your version of what you think Rey is wouldn't be allowed.

But that's an entirely different thing altogether.

Next complaint Leia living in the vacuum of space? She should have died there. Even if you accept that she magically has force powers which emerged due to the severe scenario she was placed in, even still, she could not of lived through that. Also, we as an audience are never told Leia has actual force abilities. Never. Luke in Return of the Jedi simply states she's sensitive to the force. I always thought he was meaning like the force is inherent in her, like it is in everyone. That doesn't mean she can force pull herself to safety from the vacuum of space. That's absurd! I'm okay with her having force abilities though, she is a Skywalker after all, but why not explain that to your audience Disney? Why not show us that? All you did was rob us from a deeply emotional moment were we all thought Leia was dead. I'd argue it's lazy writing, cheap, forced writing that undercut that moment.

See Rise of Skywalker.

In the first ten mins of the film Po's joke to Hux where he calls in to the First Order claiming "sorry I can't hear you" utterly slashes the Dark tone they were building up to. It effectively diminished Hux's character to a bumbling idiot as well. The rest of the movie reinforces the point that Hux is not a conpetent threat we were led to believe from The Force Awakens, but a mere tool to laugh at. Since he leads the First Order it kinda reflects negatively on the entire First Order as well. I felt his character wasn't done justice and it starts in the first 10 mins of the movie, which IMO makes for the main threat of the film to seem less intimidating.

Yeah! How dare they use comedy to cut through the treacle of an otherwise dark and serious moment! No film would ever make that kind of mistake bef-

*looks at pretty much every Marvel movie in the past 15 years*

Nevermind.

As for Hux? Whatever made you think he was a competant threat to begin with? He's a military commander whose key defining moment was spitting while screaming about the death of the Republic. He's a fanatic who thinks he's a credible rival to Kylo Ren within the First Order....but the only person who actually believes that is him.

Next point, Finn should have heroically sacrificed himself. If that had happened it would have been the best moment of the movie IMO. The whole scene was set up in the way that we believed he was going to give up his life to delay the First Order so the resistance could have time to figure out an escape plan. However that heroic moment is robbed both from Finn and from the audience by the detestable political mouthpiece Rose.

Why? Finn's story was half finished at best. All that would have accomplished is that he would have died meaninglessly. A pretty unsatisfactory fate for a guy who was kidnapped and brainwashed as a child. No, Finn needs to survive, because he needs to discover that value of being alive, and what it means to be free and be his own person. Otherwise he's just gone from being a soldier in the First Order to being a soldier in the Resistance.

Jesus I hate the character Rose.

Canto Bite was ridiculous. Literally why and the hell was that in the movie? You can wipe that whole sequence from the movie and still hold true to the main plot. It should not of been in there. Honestly it's just Disney virtue signalling to the audience. It's also politicised. Disney's just checking box's at this point on how to sell a movie.

It's very hard to take you seriously when you use buzzwords like 'virtue signalling'. What was it virtue signalling about?

Hell, let's go further? What's your issue with Rose? You don't actually explain any of your points, it's just 'urgh this was unnecessary' or 'I don't like how this character turned out, it conflicts with my own pre-concieved notions'

Those aren't valid criticisms, that's just you saying you don't like something without backing it up with sound reasoning.

Also, see Rise of Skywalker.

I wonder if anyone else agrees with me? However I've come to the conclusion that Disney is just trying to sell tickets. Making that green! While they care nothing for art and creativity. They spit on George Lucas's lore and world and even us as Star Wars fans in the process. Yet people enjoy this film and trilogy, which is okay as everyones entitled to their opinion. This is simply mine though.

Where do y'all stand?

Star Wars has always been about being a merchandising cash cow from day one. Complaining that Disney is trying to cash in on Star Wars is a completely pointless argument, because that's what franchises like this are supposed to do and always have done.

Also, George Lucas wanted the Sequel Trilogy to be about a microbiotic battle about midichlorians.

So, yeah, I'll take Disney's version anyday.
 

TheWolfMan

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@Boli

Thanks for deciding to make a productive comment instead of a simple one liner.

Now to get to the meat of things:

Your defense of Luke is simply wrong. Your argument hinges off of Legends lore which as we all know is not cannon. Disney themselves erased it all and they're making their own stories now. So you can't say my arguments wrong and straw man it to the point of "your just mad because this isn't how YOU wanted Luke to be."

A matter of fact I'm going off of what Cannon Luke was portrayed to be. Not Legends Luke as your so keen to point out. In the original Trilogy he very much is a hopeful, optimistic, loving kid. So much so that he sees the good in his father Vader. With this instalment of the franchise his character is gutted and almost does a 180. It's not Luke. Disney doesn't even explain why Luke is there, they don't do anything to justify why Luke is this way.

Now I know what your going to say: Luke's there because he failed Kylo.

However my point is that the cannon Luke would never have done that! He would not have contemplated killing his SISTERS son. The only reason that is in the film is because of lazy writing on part of the director. They need it as a plot device to propel the story forward. That's all.

The idea that this film destroys Luke is very much founded and very real. Hell, Mark Hamill is on my side on this one. What's he say: "I fundamentally disagree with your view of Luke."

Now on to Han:

I'm struggling to see why you think I'm making an argument as to how I want the characters to be portrayed. You're really trying to straw man my arguments. George Lucas gave us 3 movies to watch Han grow as a character. He's a shady smuggler that is motivated by his own self interests. Then he grows via Princess Leia and the Rebellion into a more honorable virtuous man. It is very much a solid character arc and Han is one of the most beloved characters in the franchise due to that character arc.

So what does Disney give us on their first film? They kill it. Han is reduced do a dead beat dad who abandons his child. He leaves his lover Leia to carry on with the resistance alone. While he goes back to smuggling and a life of crime.

I honestly think this is due to the writers over there at Disney being unable to write a Han Solo who wasn't a Smuggler.

Oh, and yes, Chewwie is reduced to a Space Uber who holds cute little porg animals in an attempt for Disney to sell toys.

Next, Mary Sue:

Your defense of Rey not being a Mary Sue is laughable. As you've obviously committed to Straw manning my arguments. One of the traits of being a Mary Sue is having abilities which are not properly explained via backstory. I'll list a few for you to actually respond to.

How can she speak Wookkie? She shouldn't be able to, the desert planet of Jakku has no wookies. It's highly, highly unlikely. She never met a Wookie before Chewwie yet she can speak there language.....just cause?

You really defend her piloting ability. Why? You that blind? Riding a speeder and piloting the milinum falcon are not the same thing. She even states that she never left Jakku before. Which reinforces the point that shes never flown before.

As for defending her force powers you're doing it wrong. First you have to explain how and the hell can she best Kylo. Rey and Kylo both competitively force pulling the lightsaber....Rey wins!

Kylo trying to force his way into Rey's mind, an ability we watch him perform against Po. Yet when he gets against Rey....guess what! Rey wins!

And yes Boli, doing those two things right there deserve actual training. Why? Because she is actively working against a higher trained Jedi.

That's like a level 1 character on the Site besting a level 3 character. I find it unlikely that'll happen and if it did happen there would be a rush to claim OP and Mary Sue.

Rey is, a Mary Sue.

R1 had a female lead people could get behind. The sequel Trilogy, not so much.



Hux is very much set up to be a competent threat in The Force Awakens. We see him talking to Snoke himself as well as feuding with Kylo. However in this film he's a bumbling idiot. It starts in the first ten mins of the movie. The joke wasn't needed. It ruined the Dark tone and it's the beginning of the end of Huxs character.

This is probably due to contrasting visions of the two directors of the film. I mean hell, rian Johnson actively destroys everything J.J brought to the table. That's why this trilogy feels kinda forced. Its almost like they were arguing for story points.

I'm on mobile and tired of typing. I'll probably post later why Canto was ridiculous and virtue signaling. Rose is a useless character. Holdo is seriously the complete opposite of Leia.
 

Nor'baal

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Alright, Ill bite and try to have an actual, proper response to all of this. But first...



Now, before I get started, I'm just going to point this line out, because what follows in terms of your critique reads like you're just parroting what you've seen on Youtube. That may not have intentionally been the case, but I do honestly want to ask you to seriously ask yourself: are these your opinions, or are they the opinions of people on Youtube that you've co-opted as your own? Genuinely ask yourself if you've let other people colour your views, because this:



...makes me think so.



So, the thing is....Luke, in Legends, second guesses himself all the time. There is a very real, very significant part of his life post-ROTJ where he doesn't know what he's doing with his life, doubts whether or not to refound the Jedi Order, and then, when he does so, he blames himself when Kyp Durron falls to the Dark Side and Gantoris gets killed, and almsot shuts the whole thing down.

So this whole idea that the film destroys the character of Luke is pretty unfounded.

More accurate would be to say that the film destroys your idea of what Luke should have become. And tbh that's more your issue than a problem with the film.



Er....Dunno if you caught it, but he did do something. In Luke's mind, he caused the problem in the first place, because he doubted Ben, doubted himself, and for just a brief moment, the Dark Side took him and convinced him killing Ben was the only way. And that was enough to cause everything to fall apart.

So yeah, Luke went into hiding and ran away, because he blamed himself. And given that Ben was one of his first students and his nephew, the expectations were super high. So, yeah, after losing their son, Luke couldn't bear to face Leia or Han.

This is all 100% plausible and true to character. Luke doubted himself pretty much every step of the way in the original trilogy, too. Its been his biggest weakness.



Er....nope. He's never really consistently virtuous or honorable. The entire first act of ROTJ is about saving him from the repercussions of his shady dealings. And, yes, he throws his lot in with the Rebellion for all of five minutes for the Battle of Endor. That's not really a sign that he's changed forever and is going to settle down forever.

He tries the domestic life with Leia for a while, and he chafes under it. And then losing Ben is too much for either Han or Leia to bear, and their relationship breaks under the strain.

This, to me, just sounds like another instance of you have a pre-concieved notion of what Han's story should be. So, again, that's on you. 'They didn't write the character the way I wanted them to' isn't a valid criticism of the film.

Also, Legends Han is utter garbage and is pretty much completely meaningless. And even then he still goes around doing shady stuff for the New Republic. So this idea that he should be this honorable, noble, virtuous guy all of a sudden is completely unfounded.



See Rise of Skywalker.



See Empire Strikes Back.



Oh no! She beat a ~70 year old man who hasn't held a lightsaber in years and has literally been living as a hermit on an island in seclusion! How OP!

Oh no! She can use the Force without training. Noone in Star Wars ever does that. Like Anakin flying a podracer, or reading cards he can't see with no training. Or Luke calling his lightsaber to him in the Wampa caves with his training being all of 'being zapped by a probe droid while waving a lightsaber around'.

Or Ezra Bridger using the Force to push troopers/boxes without training.

Or Baby Yoda lifting a space rhino. Or healing a dude. Or choking a dude. All while being at the developmental stage of a pre-speaking toddler.

*cough*

As for her piloting. You know that speeder on Jakku? She built that herself. She kept the AT-AT she lived in powered and operable. By herself. She's scavenged starships and military equipment for her entire life to stay alive, by herself.

Also worth mentioning is that she was a child (ten at the oldest) when she was abandoned, so not only did she clearly learn fast, but she's had at least nine years of scavenging experience. That's not just collecting scrap pieces, but also figuring out which parts are valuable, what parts operate which section of what ship, how certain components fit together and hwo they behave and interact with one another.

So she knows a fair bit about piloting by necessity of what she does to make a living and survive. But it's also worth mentioning that she apparently actually taught herself to fly as well in those years.

And yet she still nearly crashes the Falcon while trying to escape. Several times in fact.

If you think she's not struggling throughout the movie, then you're just not paying enough attention.



Having been a former admin on the site and having RPed here for....too many years, I can categorically say that's not true. And that's not due to lax standards on the site - the characters and writing here have always been of an amazing quality. Or at least, they have been in recent memory. (When we were all like 13 and newly come over from the old LucasArts RP boards for KOTOR2, different story, of course. >.>)

What I might suggest, however, is that based on your post, that your version of what you think Rey is wouldn't be allowed.

But that's an entirely different thing altogether.



See Rise of Skywalker.



Yeah! How dare they use comedy to cut through the treacle of an otherwise dark and serious moment! No film would ever make that kind of mistake bef-

*looks at pretty much every Marvel movie in the past 15 years*

Nevermind.

As for Hux? Whatever made you think he was a competant threat to begin with? He's a military commander whose key defining moment was spitting while screaming about the death of the Republic. He's a fanatic who thinks he's a credible rival to Kylo Ren within the First Order....but the only person who actually believes that is him.



Why? Finn's story was half finished at best. All that would have accomplished is that he would have died meaninglessly. A pretty unsatisfactory fate for a guy who was kidnapped and brainwashed as a child. No, Finn needs to survive, because he needs to discover that value of being alive, and what it means to be free and be his own person. Otherwise he's just gone from being a soldier in the First Order to being a soldier in the Resistance.



It's very hard to take you seriously when you use buzzwords like 'virtue signalling'. What was it virtue signalling about?

Hell, let's go further? What's your issue with Rose? You don't actually explain any of your points, it's just 'urgh this was unnecessary' or 'I don't like how this character turned out, it conflicts with my own pre-concieved notions'

Those aren't valid criticisms, that's just you saying you don't like something without backing it up with sound reasoning.

Also, see Rise of Skywalker.



Star Wars has always been about being a merchandising cash cow from day one. Complaining that Disney is trying to cash in on Star Wars is a completely pointless argument, because that's what franchises like this are supposed to do and always have done.

Also, George Lucas wanted the Sequel Trilogy to be about a microbiotic battle about midichlorians.

So, yeah, I'll take Disney's version anyday.

You're such a nerd.
 

Minuteman75

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Brandon Rhea

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After a discussion with admins and mods, we're gonna go ahead and lock this.

It was a necro-post from a year and a half ago about a movie from two years ago rehashing two year old arguments with nothing new to add on either side. The debate over The Last Jedi generally has nothing new to be added to it and frequently descends into toxicity, name-calling, dogwhistles, etc.

We're not interested in having that on the site.
 
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