SPOILER THREAD: The Last Jedi

[Soup]

Can we all just take a moment and try to comprehend how Kylo Ren was able to trick SNOKE. The guy that was casually toying with Rey who is supposed to be rivaling Kylo in general. I just find it kind of odd that Kylo fooled Snoke into thinking he had fully given in to the dark side.

8/10 Just below Attack of the Clones.

 

[Brandon Rhea]

It's the same way that the Emperor didn't see Vader's betrayal coming. Their arrogance and self-assuredness blinds them to the betrayal in their own midst. Snoke, as powerful and as wise as we can at least assume him to be at this point, felt everything that Kylo was feeling but was too arrogant to see who those feelings were being directed towards.

 

[MattBloggs]

Can we all just take a moment and try to comprehend how Kylo Ren was able to trick SNOKE. The guy that was casually toying with Rey who is supposed to be rivaling Kylo in general. I just find it kind of odd that Kylo fooled Snoke into thinking he had fully given in to the dark side.

As Brandon said. There was, for me anyway, a clear parallel with Vader and Palpatine. When I watched the film, I almost felt like Rian Johnson was deliberately repeating that theme, what with Kylo being Vader's grandson.

As to your other point, I don't quite follow what you mean.
Kylo was still in the dark side, he was simply doing what the Sith used to do.. Betray their master and take power. He wasn't acting selflessly, he was using an opportunity to rule the galaxy. Which is why he offers Rey to join him in ruling over everyone. About a minute later he chokes Hux.

I didn't see any indication that Kylo had any intention of returning to the light side.
Betrayal is the way of the Dark Side, especially with a Master/Apprentice relationship.

 

[Brandon Rhea]

He had the capability of turning towards the light while around Rey, just as Rey had the capability of turning towards the dark while around Kylo. Rey is light personified: hope, optimism, perhaps a bit naive. Kylo is darkness personified: chaos, anger, cynicism. But in one another's presence, they balance each other. They represent the balance of the Force, the necessity of both light and darkness. For example it took the cynicism of Kylo's darkness for Rey to give up her naive optimism that her parents were out there and that they were important people. Just as it took Rey's hope in the goodness of Ben Solo to get him to turn on Snoke. And in the midst of all that, there was perhaps the best duel in Star Wars history where the two of them worked in perfect harmony.

Everyone went back to their corners after that, but it showed that Rey and Kylo have influence over one another just as light and dark always influence one another and act in some sort of unison. That influence will likely continue in Episode IX, in some form, though arguably Kylo has now had 2 chances to turn back to the light and shouldn't get a third chance.

Together in those moments they represented what's possible without the Sith, who were a corruption of the natural balanced state of the Force because the Sith introduced too much darkness to the ecosystem.

Blood relation or not, they are the legacy of Anakin Skywalker.

 

[Soup]

Though I get the point that was made with the whole Vader/Kylo and Palpy/Snoke, but it still seems odd to me. I've heard numerous times that Palpatine was always ready for betrayal; that's just how the Sith work after all. Snoke also kind of seemed ready for betrayal, but it also seemed like he was more ready for Kylo to completely fail. I can see how Palpatine was fooled because Vader was literally fighting Luke at that moment and Palpatine probably felt assured that Vader had made up his mind. He may have not even bothered to check given the circumstances. Snoke on the other hand didn't really have any reason to fully believe thay Kylo was completely with him. Snoke was reading his thoughts, or at least emotions, and knew exactly what steps he was taking to kill Rey, though he was the one that got killed. I don't see how Snoke could be blind Kylo's intentions, yet know his every move. Also, I think Snoke should have sensed the Force being used to move the object that was right next to him.

As to your other point, I don't quite follow what you mean.
Kylo was still in the dark side, he was simply doing what the Sith used to do.. Betray their master and take power. He wasn't acting selflessly, he was using an opportunity to rule the galaxy. Which is why he offers Rey to join him in ruling over everyone. About a minute later he chokes Hux.

I didn't see any indication that Kylo had any intention of returning to the light side.
Betrayal is the way of the Dark Side, especially with a Master/Apprentice relationship.

It was stated multiple times in the movie that Kylo still had conflict within him. Snoke also knew of this.

 

[Brandon Rhea]

Also, I think Snoke should have sensed the Force being used to move the object that was right next to him.

By that logic Sidious should have sensed the immense torment and conflict within his apprentice, who was standing 2 feet away from him. But that goes back to arrogance and overconfidence. While Sidious did have the Contingency in the event of his death, he believed he had foreseen what would transpire on the Death Star and had no idea that Vader was going to betray him.

Same logic applies to Snoke. Yes, he messed up big time. That's not a flaw in the movie, though. It's very in keeping with the saga and its villains.

 

[Soup]

I suppose you're quite right. I just really get worked up when certain characters mess up in such a way. But in the end it's just the downside of sentience: all of those things like arrogance and overconfidence. I'm always glad to have people correct me when I'm rather blind in a subject, so I thank you two. ^-^

 

[shinobi_no_mono]

I did not like it. Here is a small analysis (plot-wise) of why I deem it to be a bad movie
The empire (First Order) leaves hyperspace with a fleet of multiple star destroyers and a warship ( don't know if that is the name, it was "Kriegsschiff" in German, my friends insisted on watching the German version, that could have worsen the movie by a lot, therefore I won't critizise how they speak) What the Resistance and the order do next does not make any sense whatsoever. It starts with the warship firing on the desolate station on the planet. Would they have chosen to destroy the only cruiser the Resistance had present most of the troops surviving this Initial attack would have to return to the planet were they could then be hunted down. The frigates could have later been found by the scanner (I don't know how they called that device) that is capable of following tracing a ship even when in hyperspace and destroyed.

next point: When Poe destroyers the defenses of the warship the warship launches a small amount off TIE fighters. why not more? Or why do the star destroyers don't launch their fighters. And when the bombers come, why don't the star the destroyers do something. Or in the long time of the weapon recharges, why do the Star destroyers not engage in combat with the cruiser of the resistance? Why are they even there? And don't let me start with the bombers. Those things were suicide machines .

How did they breath in there, with a big hole in the floor? And then Snoke does not kill Hux, for Sith are very merciful I guess? Now forward to the resistance. Poe gets stripped of his rank (I liked that, it seemed like a military was capable for some time.) And the empire leaves hyperspace. The resistance gets ready to fight them but Kylo shoots a rocket through the hanger shield (We really needed this kind of technology, a shield defying rocket). And when he sees the bridge he gets readdy to fire, but he can't do it because he simply is not a real sith and therefore someone else does it. All off the dudes dye, and Leia to, but no. After the last movie, she learned how to learn the force. And although we saw her freeze, wich would be deadly itself and render her at least blind since the eyes loose much heat very quickly. But in the end, she is going to be fine. Admiral Ackbar dies before he can proclaim that everything is a trap and some violet haired woman gets the command. I thought that to be pretty odd. Just imagine how much cooler it would be if Leia had died but Ackbar had lived and gotten the command. We would see a fan beloved character in the position instead of this no_name. I will post much more but it’s late and I still have much stuff to do for tomorrow (who does not like Mondays)

 

[Orbit]

Idk, I didn't have a problem with Snokes death but I just feel like it was a lot of wasted potential. He seemed like a really powerful dude and almost like one of the powerful force beings the movies ever had. I feel like they could have cut out the Rose and Fin plot and turn into more about Snoke training Kylo and also Luke actually training Rey.

 

[Arcangel]

I did not like it. Here is a small analysis (plot-wise) of why I deem it to be a bad movie
The empire (First Order) leaves hyperspace with a fleet of multiple star destroyers and a warship ( don't know if that is the name, it was "Kriegsschiff" in German, my friends insisted on watching the German version, that could have worsen the movie by a lot, therefore I won't critizise how they speak) What the Resistance and the order do next does not make any sense whatsoever. It starts with the warship firing on the desolate station on the planet. Would they have chosen to destroy the only cruiser the Resistance had present most of the troops surviving this Initial attack would have to return to the planet were they could then be hunted down. The frigates could have later been found by the scanner (I don't know how they called that device) that is capable of following tracing a ship even when in hyperspace and destroyed.

next point: When Poe destroyers the defenses of the warship the warship launches a small amount off TIE fighters. why not more? Or why do the star destroyers don't launch their fighters. And when the bombers come, why don't the star the destroyers do something. Or in the long time of the weapon recharges, why do the Star destroyers not engage in combat with the cruiser of the resistance? Why are they even there? And don't let me start with the bombers. Those things were suicide machines .

How did they breath in there, with a big hole in the floor? And then Snoke does not kill Hux, for Sith are very merciful I guess? Now forward to the resistance. Poe gets stripped of his rank (I liked that, it seemed like a military was capable for some time.) And the empire leaves hyperspace. The resistance gets ready to fight them but Kylo shoots a rocket through the hanger shield (We really needed this kind of technology, a shield defying rocket). And when he sees the bridge he gets readdy to fire, but he can't do it because he simply is not a real sith and therefore someone else does it. All off the dudes dye, and Leia to, but no. After the last movie, she learned how to learn the force. And although we saw her freeze, wich would be deadly itself and render her at least blind since the eyes loose much heat very quickly. But in the end, she is going to be fine. Admiral Ackbar dies before he can proclaim that everything is a trap and some violet haired woman gets the command. I thought that to be pretty odd. Just imagine how much cooler it would be if Leia had died but Ackbar had lived and gotten the command. We would see a fan beloved character in the position instead of this no_name. I will post much more but it’s late and I still have much stuff to do for tomorrow (who does not like Mondays)

On the bombers, the hole would likely be covered with shielding, similar to how the hangars of big ships are shielded, with shields that hold the atmosphere inside while allowing physical objects to pass through, as we have seen in just about every Star Wars movie. So that answers those 2 points.

 

[Soup]

I did not like it. Here is a small analysis (plot-wise) of why I deem it to be a bad movie
The empire (First Order) leaves hyperspace with a fleet of multiple star destroyers and a warship ( don't know if that is the name, it was "Kriegsschiff" in German, my friends insisted on watching the German version, that could have worsen the movie by a lot, therefore I won't critizise how they speak) What the Resistance and the order do next does not make any sense whatsoever. It starts with the warship firing on the desolate station on the planet. Would they have chosen to destroy the only cruiser the Resistance had present most of the troops surviving this Initial attack would have to return to the planet were they could then be hunted down. The frigates could have later been found by the scanner (I don't know how they called that device) that is capable of following tracing a ship even when in hyperspace and destroyed.

next point: When Poe destroyers the defenses of the warship the warship launches a small amount off TIE fighters. why not more? Or why do the star destroyers don't launch their fighters. And when the bombers come, why don't the star the destroyers do something. Or in the long time of the weapon recharges, why do the Star destroyers not engage in combat with the cruiser of the resistance? Why are they even there? And don't let me start with the bombers. Those things were suicide machines .

How did they breath in there, with a big hole in the floor? And then Snoke does not kill Hux, for Sith are very merciful I guess? Now forward to the resistance. Poe gets stripped of his rank (I liked that, it seemed like a military was capable for some time.) And the empire leaves hyperspace. The resistance gets ready to fight them but Kylo shoots a rocket through the hanger shield (We really needed this kind of technology, a shield defying rocket). And when he sees the bridge he gets readdy to fire, but he can't do it because he simply is not a real sith and therefore someone else does it. All off the dudes dye, and Leia to, but no. After the last movie, she learned how to learn the force. And although we saw her freeze, wich would be deadly itself and render her at least blind since the eyes loose much heat very quickly. But in the end, she is going to be fine. Admiral Ackbar dies before he can proclaim that everything is a trap and some violet haired woman gets the command. I thought that to be pretty odd. Just imagine how much cooler it would be if Leia had died but Ackbar had lived and gotten the command. We would see a fan beloved character in the position instead of this no_name. I will post much more but it’s late and I still have much stuff to do for tomorrow (who does not like Mondays)

Well Leia didn't necessarily learn to use the Force. I saw it more as the Force being all like 'No, she will live because plot.' I feel it was the Force itself that saved her, like how the Force is making Kylo and Rey equal despite Rey not being trained with a lightsaber, not being trained much with the Froce, and having only recieved two of the three lessons that Luke said she would have starting at dawn.

I still think Leia surviving was kinda not cool. Her death would have had an impact. Just imagine Luke being told that not only Han had died, but also that Leia had too been killed by the First Order. He would have been at least internally devastated.

Also, random thing here, it would have been cool if Anakin and Obi-Wan had shown up as Force ghosts as well. Maybe Obi-Wan first, then Yoda, and finally Anakin. I feel it would have made a bigger impact if all three showed up and talked to Luke.

 

[Phil]

Just a heads up, @shinobi_no_mono, there are no Sith in this movie. Darth Vader and Darth Sidious were the last. Snoke, Kylo Ren and any others that came after are simply wielders of the Dark Side.

Also, if I didn't say it before... I can't remember, but... those bombers have to be without a doubt the slowest bomber ships I have ever seen... in a space opera... ever, and the most fragile.

 

[Soup]

I must agree with the bomber thing. I feel the Y-Wings were more effective. Sure the B-Wing bombers seemed to be able to drop a bigger load, bu why bother when your ships can't get to their destination.

 

[Andrewza]

One assumes these bombers where built to attack ships. When maybe just maybe they where built to attack ground targets.

 

[shinobi_no_mono]

The resistance does not have the resources for conventional warfare

 

[Andrewza]

And. That does not mean those bombers where not built for that style of warfare. Rember the resistance uses republic ships and uses what they got.

 

[Zach]

Poe is a terrible commander and led his people to die for a needless purpose. Rose's sister was the real hero, stepping up to accomplish a nearly impossible task that really only prolonged the survival of the resistance troops long enough to get away during that whole movie-long chase.

Also,

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Darth Vader is Luke's father.

 

[Andrewza]

Poe is lucky he was only demoted. If he was not the best living pilot he would of been detained to the brig

 

[Phil]

The resistance does not have the resources for conventional warfare

They can afford to get X-Wings and keep them maintained, as well as other ships they had, as well as arm their own soldiers. but not some Y-Wings?

They're still clearly enough of a threat to warrant The First Order's attention, especially after they blew up their base/planet.

 

[TheRevanchist]

I may be yelled at for this, while I enjoyed it, it's in the SW universe after all, I felt that rey is becoming a Mary sue who doesn't need any training, every other force user has been trained and she comes along and nah she doesn't need that, what would other older force users know.
Next movie she'll single handedly kill every member of the new order, and every sith, but thats my pessimistic view.