An Unofficial PvP Commentary

Phoenix

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See link here. While it’s an old thread, it’s a good one. Sometimes I would recommend going to read old PvP threads if you want to learn. I picked this from a time before the current PvP meta of pedantry.

I wanted to put this here because I wanted to give an example of a good PvP. I would encourage anyone interested in PvP to read this thread, and take note of a few things.

  1. The number of “edit” tags. There were very few posts in the thread “edited” after being posted. The reason I point this out is because this fight wasn’t about “argue with your opponent until they edit to comply with what you want.”
  2. The number of IC posts made each day. There are 72 IC posts made in 10 days. That’s an average of 7.2 posts made per day. Now why do I point this out? Because there’s no way that you can make it through that many posts per day if you’re spending 10 OOC posts arguing each IC post.
  3. The complete lack of an OOC. I think this one is self-explanatory. There were 72 IC posts without ever even making an OOC thread.
  4. The story aspects still worked into the PvP. While there’s a fight going on, the characters are still building a fascinating story. It's not about "grab a stupid kill" or fighting just for the sake of a fight. It’s about creating a narrative, not just wracking up another kill for stupid reasons.
  5. The willingness to “go with” what your opponent posted. No arguing about this tiny detail or that tiny detail. No “you don’t have the tiny amount of time you need to do that.” No “you didn’t perfectly address this attack so I’m going to auto hit you.” No “you can’t do that many things at once.” Whatever the other person wrote, the opponent worked with it. If you’ve PvPed at all, just read this thread and think about all the places that people would normally argue about timing or concentration or stamina. It’s become the norm and that’s for the negative. You won’t find any of that here.

I point this out because this is an incredible PvP that’s both fun to read and an example of what every single one of us should be striving toward for our PvPs. Often times there’s announcements about what not to do, but I thought maybe it would be helpful to show a what should you do.

Additionally, it’s an interesting look into exhaustion and concentration. In this fight, they’ve been going on for several minutes before the first mention of tiring (posts 33-34). I point this out not as a hard and fast rule, but to demonstrate that two Force powers isn’t enough to exhaust someone. And when the characters start to feel exhausted, it shows up in their actions. They aren’t as spry after being wounded and physically taxed. By the end of the fight, they're huffing and puffing, struggling to make attacks, etc.

This single thread gives examples of almost everything you need to know about PvP. Shared time, Force powers, attitude, story implementation, and probably more that I'm not listing. For those of you who ask for examples of good PvP, here it is.

Edit: I added a few more comments in the post below.
 
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sayso

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Extremely well-made post, hope you don't mind if I put in my two cents in.

There are two main reasons why people argue over small details: 1. PVP can lead to a character death and no one wants to lose a character that they worked hard on. 2. It's natural for wanting to "win", improve your character, and etc. These are relatively sound reasons for wanting to argue in OOC, however, you can just avoid character death by NOT PVPing and you can improve your character through story threads; you can even implement a limited extent of PVP or even PvE in your thread.

One of the main points of PVPing is to gain benefits to your character. You can't receive a reward without taking a risk of some sort; "The only way to find true happiness is to risk being completely cut open" - Chuck Palahniuk. If you choose to PVP you essentially agree to run the risk of losing your character, items, or whatever. So if you really care about your character so much to the point that you argue about the tiniest of details, then just do not participate in PVP, or create a second character to PVP with. The only scenario that I think is some-what acceptable to argue over tiny details is during special PVP tournaments, but usually, there is a moderator who will be watching/reffing the PVP anyways.

Despite all of this, no one should be necessarily be afraid of PVP. I think many newcomers, including myself, are afraid of losing our hard-work. However, I don't think it is healthy for one to constantly avoid something. Besides, you will never know if you happen to enjoy PVPing. It never hurts to create a more simple second character and test out PVP. "Be brave. Take risks. Nothing can substitute experience." - Paulo Coelho
 

Phoenix

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Extremely well-made post, hope you don't mind if I put in my two cents in.

There are two main reasons why people argue over small details: 1. PVP can lead to a character death and no one wants to lose a character that they worked hard on. 2. It's natural for wanting to "win", improve your character, and etc. These are relatively sound reasons for wanting to argue in OOC, however, you can just avoid character death by NOT PVPing and you can improve your character through story threads; you can even implement a limited extent of PVP or even PvE in your thread.

One of the main points of PVPing is to gain benefits to your character. You can't receive a reward without taking a risk of some sort; "The only way to find true happiness is to risk being completely cut open" - Chuck Palahniuk. If you choose to PVP you essentially agree to run the risk of losing your character, items, or whatever. So if you really care about your character so much to the point that you argue about the tiniest of details, then just do not participate in PVP, or create a second character to PVP with. The only scenario that I think is some-what acceptable to argue over tiny details is during special PVP tournaments, but usually, there is a moderator who will be watching/reffing the PVP anyways.

Despite all of this, no one should be necessarily be afraid of PVP. I think many newcomers, including myself, are afraid of losing our hard-work. However, I don't think it is healthy for one to constantly avoid something. Besides, you will never know if you happen to enjoy PVPing. It never hurts to create a more simple second character and test out PVP. "Be brave. Take risks. Nothing can substitute experience." - Paulo Coelho

I can say that character death will not be as common next TL when it comes to PvPs (not to say it won't ever happen), which we hope will help PvP be more about building story than just having people wrack up kills. You're right. Part of the issue with PvP is that the mentality behind why people are doing it has changed, and not for the better, which makes people feel like they have to argue every little thing
 

Wit

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But keep in mind that some characters should partake in at least some PvP. You can’t be a bounty hunter or a sith assassin and get development without actually fighting people. It’s not about avoiding PvP, it’s about having the right mentality when going in. If you go in to have fun, are cordial in the OOC, and on the whole not a dick you’re gonna come out of even a loss with your character still alive.

The focus should be on changing mentality, not just avoiding pvps altogether.
 

Sreeya

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I had no idea you posted this. I'm so freakin flattered T__T

Also I'm ashamed to admit I've become much more competitive and anal since then. I'm going to work on fixing that and going back to making pvp actually fun and story driven. I can't believe this was me.
 

Caught in Strangereal

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I love this post Phoenix because what you described is what I hoped to be getting from PvP. Really though as many people point out it's the mentality we carry into PvP that helps shape it into what experience we want. I had a interesting experience with the Mandalorian tournament pvp where I asked my partner (@Rom mentioning you because you were awesome) for a lot of advice and the one thing that stuck at me was a few times I asked if I should make a OOC and repeatedly I was told no.

That pvp was the smoothest and quickest moving PvP I done and the most fun I had doing a PvP. Now that could be biased by the fact that I was on the winning side but still I think it was because most of my brain power was spent expecting the next course of action IC rather than dreading the next wave of ooc post. I think why was because of well mentality. Both sides were easy going and trying to have a good time crafting a fun story of a competitive tournament rather than "win". That's the problem I notice is the focus on winning and looking like a cool badass.

If you go into a PvP and go to the extents of arguing to exhaustion and unnecessarily doubling down with each post to force a victory and not even be willing to accept a few scratches you should rethink about why you PvP imo. Each time we run the gauntlet of PvP we need to assume we will lose. We will get our asses kicked and that winning is not guaranteed. Because falling down and getting back up is just as much of a compelling story as winning. A character who had scars from being captured and tortured or has a cybernetic limb has a whole new depth and experience that can help you have so much fun with writing the character. You can have a lot of depth and make them so much more real if you embrace that part than even a loss in a pvp can be turned into a epic story.

Hell even if you do die you're contributing to story. The plucky fng who picked a fight with the wrong person, the menacing crime lord who beat someone to death with a shoe, The bar brawl that erupts into a fiery scandal that leaves a lot of good people dead and leaves a scandal for the survivors. If your character dies in any of that you leave a compelling story in it's wake. After all we are all working together to craft a combined story. After all you're not just telling the story of how your character is the main protagonist that conquers all but rather the story of everyone involved.

Damn I type a lot when I get passionate.

TL;DR:
Play for fun not to win, rolling with the punches gives you a ton of narrative potential, and the site doesn't revolve around your character it revolves around everyone's character
 

Phoenix

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A couple of additional comments as well.

I think it would benefit everyone if PvP was treated with a similar mentality of cPvP. The "let's make a good story out of this" and "let's do some cool stuff" combined with a hint of competition is a much better mentality to have. Almost every single round of combat in this thread would have been contested with our current mentality, but none of them were at the time.

Also, when thinking about timing, there are multiple times when things are referred to as coming "seconds later" or "this would happen within seconds." If people wrote that today, most opponents would go on to say "well I interrupt your whole plan in the first half second." That type of timing is ridiculous. Look at actual lightsaber fights in SW. People aren't constantly trying to stab one another between the time that a saber is ready to strike and when it actually hits. Remember your character's not that good. I think in this entire thread there were only one or two actual interrupt attacks in 72 posts. Not every round needs people trying to interrupt. In fact, most rounds shouldn't have that. Work with what your opponent wrote and their timing.

Finally: taking hits. This is a great example of how to take a hit without it being an instant KO. It's also a great example of not trying to force your opponent to be dead/KO after one hit. Still RPing out appropriate damage, but not instantly trying to force your opponent to be completely debilitated.

PvP in the nuTL is going to be a lot more like this, so everyone should probably start getting used to it. If you report a thread, unless it is an absolutely egregious action taken by your opponent, I have a feeling you're not going to get your way. Even if you're technically correct about something. This is Star Wars, not HEMA.
 

Rev

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I'll agree with Sreeya and say it's certainly flattering to read the sentiment from such an old post. That you remember it and still bring it up shocks me.

To build off what you said I don't think Sreeya and I ever planned a fight or expected an outcome. I've always played my characters with a belief they could die in any post by making the wrong decision, but ultimately individually and collectively character and story growth should take precedent.

I always viewed the movies fights like a huge theatric, no one ever just died without meaning or it being for a deeper story. From Old Ben nodding before Vader cuts him down to Order 66. It all had a bigger meaning than kill the Jedi because it's shocking. There was an earlier PvP her and I did I believe was our first ever RP and she could have let this same character fall to his death but instead pulled him up to a rooftop. Which would have given her +1 kill but who knows where her character would have ended up.
 
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