Dark Side Corruption and You

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Green Ranger

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((Reposting from the Force Powers announcement as a new thread/guide.))

I've had a few PMs about the Light Side and Dark Side and how the idea of Force alignment fits in to this new system. This is going to be a tricky thing to explain, so bear with me, but this is basically my argument as to why the idea of Force alignment is flawed, and how to look at it in a more lore-accurate way.

A lot you you have probably gotten the idea of Force alignment from videogames, such as Knights of the Old Republic and Star Wars: The Old Republic, where choices, actions and even opinions will directly effect on a scale how deep within the Dark or Light Side you are. For those unfamiliar with this system, I'll do a quick example below:

Light Side: |----------|----------| : Dark Side
(Neutral/'Gray')​

The idea of such a system is basically that choices, actions, ideas and opinions will give certain dark or light side points, which will move your character's alignment further towards Dark, Light, or the neutral ground in between. This has historically been used as a simplified way of both handling character alignment as well as Force affiliation. It's effective as far as video games go, but in RP it has some shortcomings due to its simplicity.

For example, let's say you're 90 points Light Side aligned, an exemplary individual in the new timeline who has proved time and time again that they're a stunning example of Jedi teachings, and unmatched in their devotion to charity, self-sacrifice, and putting the needs of others before your own. Now, let's say that, according to Jedi teachings, the Sith Lord that's been haunting you your entire life, killed your Master and brought untold destruction to the galaxy, lies at your feet, defeated and broken.

Now, according to Jedi teachings, since Jedi were historically rather unforgiving of their Sith enemies, redemption's not an option, so they've got to be put to death. All good, right? Well, not quite. See, ending the life of another being, Sith or not, is still pretty dark - I mean, keep in mind you're straight up murdering an unarmed opponent in this scenario. So, in spite of Jedi teachings, you take a massive hit to your Force alignment as a result.

But here's where it gets even weirder. See, because you've got 90 points to your Light Side alignment, the...let's say...40 points of Dark Side points for straight up killing someone, still leaves you at 50 Light Side points. In short, you shrug off the effects of a heavily Dark Side act with no repercussions whatsoever. You just performed a Dark Side act that would make Palpatine cackle maniacally, and you walk away completely untouched by the Dark Side's influence, except that maybe channeling Light Side powers is slightly more difficult than before...at least until you give a couple of homeless people a shiny credit or two. This is basically the equivalent of Anakin Skywalker murdering those Tusken Raiders in Attack of the Clones in a fit of rage, then going back to Obi-Wan and explaining that it's all good because he saved Padme's life earlier so his Light Side points are still high enough to negate straight up murdering a whole society. I don't think I need to tell you how ridiculous that is, and also how inaccurate to canon it is.

It also simplifies all characters to being on a Light=good, Dark=evil equation, which is overly simplistic. Jedi can be evil, and Sith can have good motivations. Whether one is good or evil doesn't directly correspond to their affiliation in the Force. To use another Prequel reference, think of Anakin Skywalker again - if Star Wars actually adhered to such a system, then realistically Anakin couldn't (not wouldn't, but literally be unable to) fall to the Dark Side after defending Palpatine against Mace Windu.

So in short, it's a flawed perspective when approaching the Force, and Alignment is not the same as Dark or Light Side affiliation.

So, what's a better way to look at the Dark Side?

The more reasonable, and Canon-accurate way to approaching how Dark or Light one is in the Force, is to treat it entirely separately from alignment, or rather, to treat Dark Side corruption as a separate scale altogether. Probably the best example of how to view this is, in my opinion, the D&D mechanic of taint, which I've linked to for those curious. Now, I'm not saying this is an exact parallel by any means, but it might be useful to look through that resource to help understand where I'm coming from, but I'll try to explain it in regards to how it relates to the Force.

In regard to the question of what is taint, I'll quote the above source:

Taint is the lingering corruption of places and objects by unfathomable evil. We are not talking about the evil created by an unhallow spell or the foul taste to the air a paladin can detect when he senses a vampire.... this is something deeper, something more profound and utterly overwhelming. A weapon used to slaughter thousands of innocents, a forest grown on land soaked with the blood of an evil god, a book bound in the flesh of an archfiend for its own twisted purposes.... these are all examples of tainted items and locations.

On Iourn, all of the Great Dark is tainted to some extent. It has always been a place where evil has permeated the very soil, but the presence of the Enceinte has intensified and concentrated this taint. Almost everyone and everything in the Great Dark will be tainted to a greater or lesser extent. But that does not mean they are actually evil.

Being tainted is seldom a good thing. It is debilitating to the body and the mind. Certain creatures and certain classes can turn taint to their advantage, but they are few and far between. On the most part, even characters of an evil alignment do not want to be tainted. This is worth bearing in mind.

Now, there's some names in there you probably won't recognize, and some examples that don't apply to Star Wars, but looking past those, you can see the strong parallels between Taint and the Dark Side. It is corrupting and insidious. It is far deeper than just being evil. It is a power that grows stronger in locations, people and objects that have been heavily touched by its presence. And it is separate from one's morality - even the most righteous and noble hero can be corrupted by it. It has Dark Side written all over it, really. Going further down that page, we can also see that it corrupts body and mind in different ways, is intensely alluring and dangerous to use, is incredibly difficult to break free of, but, also - for those who immerse themselves in it, Taint grants powerful benefits, especially to those who go on to willingly study and practice it.

One's taint score is determined separately from their alignment, much like Dark Side Corruption is in canon. Look at Luke Skywalker in ROTJ, momentarily falling to the Dark Side to protect his sister from Darth Vader. Noble intentions, sure, but on the Force Alignments scale, it's impossible for him to fall in such a way.

But if we handle Corruption independent of alignment, then suddenly it fits. Luke's got good intentions, but he still falls - so he is partially corrupted by falling to the Dark Side. He's still a good guy, but there's a lingering effect on him from touching the Dark Side in such a way. Another good example of Corruption is Order 66, and the attack on the Jedi Temple. Defiling a temple of the Light Side like that (not to mention straight up murdering children) gets you some massive Corruption, so it makes sense that by the time of Mustafar, Anakin was showing visible signs of the Dark Side's hold on him, which he wasn't before then. Since Taint/Corruption effects both body and mind, you can also argue that Knightfall was a means for Palpatine to turn Vader to the Dark Side more than anything that happened against Mace Windu - by the time he was done killing countless Jedi and defiling a temple of the Light Side, he was so corrupted that his irrational behaviour towards Padme and Obi-Wan on Mustafar was a result of the Corruption of the Dark Side. So again, handling the Dark Side like taint, rather than alignment, fits better with what we know from canon.

Now, onto the elephant in the room, and that's Gray Jedi.

In this instance, I'm referring to Force Users who use both Light and Dark sides of the Force equally, rather than the canonical term of an unorthodox Jedi who has left the Order over philosophical disagreements. And that's kind of my first point about them.

I know that some of you are planning on making a Gray Jedi, whether it's an independent character or part of an order - first of, by no means take this as an attack on your creative ideas. I want to make it abundantly clear before I start on this speel, so do please keep that in mind when reading this.

The thing is...Gray Jedi like that? As in, 'Dark and Light alike are equally my ally'? There's...not really all that much solid proof in canon to really back up any claims that it's an actual thing. And that's in Legends canon - in the new canon there's, as far as I know at least, absolutely zero support for such an ideology. For the most part, it's heavily built on fan-based speculation, but there's little evidence from published sources - hell, the name Gray Jedi in itself is a loose definition at best, and examples of Gray Jedi who use both Light and Dark are severely lacking in Legends lore - most examples cited are still practitioners of the Light Side that simply aren't recognized by the Jedi Council. To cast further doubt on the validity of such a niche, we have prominent characters in Legends lore as testimony - for example, Kyle Katarn, who said that "Abilities are not inherently good or evil, it's how you use them.", a statement that is further backed up by characters such as Plo Koon (A Jedi Council member in a period of strict and almost unprecedented adherence to orthodoxy, remember) using a variant of Force Lightning, a power that is about as Dark as Dark can get.

So! Keeping all of that in mind, as well as the ideas of the Dark and Light Sides of the Force (of which there is a lot more written about) to infer an answer - in regards to the question of 'how does a neutral or gray side to the Force fit in with these new rules?'

Now, I hate to say, but: it really just doesn't fit in at all. And I know that's a heavy blow to some characters and faction ideas being thrown around, but that's really the hard truth of it. Up until now, site rules have sort of allowed wiggle room enough to somewhat sort of make it passable, but really there's not much of a case for it anymore. But there is more to it than that. As you've probably seen from the Force Powers guide, while we're allowing much more free roam in regards to use of the Force, there are some pretty strong distinctions made between the Light and Dark Sides of the Force. Introducing the idea of Grays into that not only removes any inherent flavour from using one side or the other, but it also overcomes an restrictions or penalties as well - using both sides equally gives you an an even bigger toolkit than Jedi or Sith already have with none of the shortcomings, giving an unfair inherent advantage to a group that isn't strongly supported by publications to begin with. Additionally, from a story perspective, it also essentially makes your character immune to falling to the Dark Side or being redeemed, as well as the internal struggle between Light and Dark. That lack of consequences severely limits what you can write about, and for me personally, is something that I would consider severely detrimental to the longevity of your character.

Now, I'm not saying that you can't be an unorthodox Jedi, or that you aren't allowed to toy with elements of both the Dark and Light Sides, but the distinction and struggle between Light and Dark will need to be recognized and adhered to. There's still opportunity to play around with a group of Jedi who try to harness the Dark Side, but it can't be in the vein of using both sides equally. You'll need to seriously consider how you plan on approaching the idea, and you'll need to be very clear both in explaining any sort of pitch in the vein of a Gray Jedi.

This expectation of adherence will apply to everyone, of course - if we see evidence of any character, in any faction, freely dancing between Light and Dark sides arbitrarily or using powers that are clearly opposed to their affiliation without good cause, then the staff does reserve the right to take action if necessary.
 
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Mr.BossMan

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This has helped me immensely.

Looking back now I wish you posted this last timeline, that way I could have this knowledge when Anthoni fell and was redeemed-ish. Great guide.
 

Baobhan

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The big monkey dude in starwars rebels is super grey (bendu).

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Bendu

So there's your precedent if anyone wants it for greys. It's definately there in non legends canon, hope this helps anyone who wants to go that route. Hope I'm not overstepping my bounds or anything... >.<
 
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Elijah Brockway

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We also had The Father from TCW, who did basically the same thing. Maintained balance without ever really taking a side.

So we for sure have two (2!) examples, rather than one, of beings that are really neither light nor dark, but at the same time, they're very abnormal beings and very rare. So there's also that.

I don't know if it really requires an edit of the Force rules or not.
 

FinnSimmons

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The big monkey dude in starwars rebels is super grey (bendu).

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Bendu

So there's your precedent if anyone wants it for greys. It's definately there in non legends canon, hope this helps anyone who wants to go that route. Hope I'm not overstepping my bounds or anything... >.<
In the end it is up to the admins to decide but I am not sure how serious we should take an animated TV show made for children.
 

Elijah Brockway

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It is definitely canon (and not that badly written, either).

But again.

Two extremely abnormal beings who are both identified as "Force Wielders" rather than normal force sensitive members of the galaxy, who belong to no discernible species that we know of, are the only ones who don't have to subscribe to the usual dictate of either being in the light side or the dark side, which is what we see with everybody else who is at least Force Sensitive in the Star Wars universe (in canon, not Legends).

I don't honestly think that provides an avenue for everybody else on here - who only plays the "normal" force sensitives when they do - to do the whole "I'm neither light nor dark!" thing.
 

Valen Pelora

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I absolutely agree, they are aberrations and far outside the norm. It's difficult keeping Legends and what is now canon strait but I think you are right that all the "grey" force users and organizations got taken out.
 

Elijah Brockway

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The only times this site has ever really "ignored" canon (in recent memory, so from the last timeline [specifically when I joined] to now) is when it involves obviously overpowered uses of the Force or crazy technology that wouldn't be feasible in an RP setting where most every character is supposed to be on a roughly level playing field.

Other than that, there's been a lot less "ignoring canon" and a lot more "trying to explain canon in an RP feasible manner." Beyond that, while they might be "kids shows," it's definitely true that TCW and Rebels are canon, have provided useful insights into the ways things work in nucanon, and should be taken into account here on SWRP (for what can be taken into account, considering the whole "around a millenium prior to TPM" thing).
 

Green Ranger

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The mortis shit i just ignore for so many reasons.

But yes, I'm aware of Bendu. I also haven't factored him in because so far all we know is he uses both apparently. At least, according to him. Theres no real confirmation around anything he does so far - does he actually use both/neither, or is it just his own personal belief, like Jolee Bindo still being a Jedi at heart? Is he being honest with Kanan? What is the actual philosophy that drives him to use both? And how do the Dark and Light Sides relate to such a philosophy?

Basically, my policy regarding Bendu is a wait and see approach - until we have more concrete information about his philosophy, I personally don't want to factor him just yet since theres just...very little to go by just yet.
 

Baobhan

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Fair enough, i just thought i would bring it up :) Seemed relevant, and like an avenue which could give characters some canon justification for taking the middle road so to speak.
 

Marf

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This is so great Boli, exploring the lengths of Dark Side corruption has been my favourite thing to write this timeline.

@Green Ranger
 

Undine

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I know this post is over a month late, but I just wanted to add my two cents. As far as the Father and Bendu are concerned, neither have displayed abilities in either the light or dark side of the Force. Despite the limited information about them or their abilities, I think it's safe to assume that if a force sensitive wanted to remain neutral within the Force, they would have to consider both the light and dark sides as a form of taint. Using dark side abilities such as Force Lightning or Force Drain has an irreversible effect on the wielder, it's fairly safe to say that using light side oriented abilities would have similar effects and thus any being seeking neutrality within the Force would actively avoid pursuing them. In this regard, being a Grey Jedi would limit what Force abilities a character could develop. However, since most Force abilities, including many of my personal favorites, don't actually lean towards the light or the dark, sensory/alter abilities in particular, if done right a character could in theory hold their own against a Jedi or Sith. As far as philosophy goes, it seems to be more of a personal nature relating to the specific characters in question, rather than anything passed down throughout the ages, which would also help explain the rarity of such individuals.​
 

Green Ranger

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I mean, you're essentially using gameplay mechanics from old, de-canonized sources to support your claim (ie sense/alter being 'neutral' has roots in Star Wars D20 iirc), so we have to be careful in our assertions like that since, at least afaik, there's no real canon consensus on whether a power can be neutral or how it works IIRC. Which goes back to my point of so-called greyness relying on a lot of assertions that still have no foundation in canon.
 

Undine

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I was referring more to things such as telepathy or mind trick, both dark and light siders use these abilities, and neither of these abilities which lean strongly in the direction of being light or dark. Draining the life essence of another being, sentient or not, is an obvious usage of the dark side, and I can't imagine any light sider using such an ability. I think it's safe to assume then, that using such an ability would lead to a dark side taint, both to the user and the victim. None of that revolves around game mechanics or even anything to do with Star Wars really, as there are similar abilities, if not the exact same, in almost every magic system across most modern fantasy. I think it's safe to assume on these matters since such a large majority of fantasy would view certain types of abilities to go hand in hand with the light and dark.

Raising the dead, corrupting souls, and twisting the physical forms of beings into something horrific can very clearly be considered to be of a darker nature, while healing, cleansing, and other forms of magical or spiritual purification are classic examples of the light. Understanding how the greyer aspects of the Force work on a fundamental level is one thing, which I'd guess works much the same as the Force as it is currently explained. However determining how it works on a philosophical level should be left up to the individual, all characters are different, they all have different philosophies and practices, why should Grey Jedi or neutral Force users be any different?​
 

Green Ranger

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I was referring more to things such a telepathy or mind trick, both dark and light siders use these abilities, neither of which leans strongly in the direction of being light or dark.

Doesn't it? Kylo Ren's method of forcefully invading the mind of a person is telepathy, but it sure isn't neutral. Similarly, mind tricking someone to (to use a classic example) drop their weapons and jump off a ledge in Nar Shaddaa isn't neutral.

FTR I'm not arguing that certain powers aren't inherently light or dark (though I subscribe to the Katarn school of thought on that - intent and application defines light/darkness in most cases), I'm arguing that 'core powers' or neutral powers as they existed in the old canon and RPGs don't really have any basis in fact as far as the new canon is concerned.
 
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