Public Rules Proposals

Yuan

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Hey guys! So as you can see Here the site is getting ready to go under some renovation under the guidance and leadership of @Brandon Rhea. I for one am excited to see what is coming next. I think the former mods and leaders who have given their all to run the site thus far did an excellent job of it, but we know they have worn themselves out keeping us happy and are past-due for some much-needed rest. A fresh look at the site operations may be just what we need. Brandon has expressed interest in getting some feedback from the members on the rule changes that they think should happen, and since the staff are still busy working out the plan behind the scenes, I thought I would make this thread where we can post our ideas for rule changes!

So, in order to keep things organized and make sure as many people as possible can make their suggestions heard, here's how I'd like to do this. I would like this thread to be for the posting of ideas only. No discussions. Each member who desires can post their proposal and then readers can like the post if they agree that it is a good idea. Proposals that receive large numbers of likes will show that there is significant interest in the proposal and it bears further discussion in another thread. Here's the format I'd like to see:

Proposal Type: Rule Addition, Rule Amendment, Rule Removal

Rule In Question: What rule do you think should be changed? (A link to the page in the rule section where the rule appears may be helpful)

Proposal: A description of your proposal. Try to keep it reasonably brief while still carrying your point across. Try not to make a TLDR, lol.

I'll make the first post as a humorous example.
 
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Yuan

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Proposal Type: Rule Addition

Rule In Question: Mooks

Proposal: So, I was thinking it would be good to make basic NPCs easily obtainable for the average joe player. Allow anyone, to obtain them whether they are faction or not. This will serve to help people crew the advanced ships and other vehicles everyone wants. It is always a bit rough getting the bodies necessary to fully staff an advanced ships, especially if your character is not faction. It will also open up new doors in RPs. One RP site I used to be a part of had it set up where PCs could automatically claim a certain number of Mook NPCs at each character level and this would give characters and groups the ability to cover their manpower needs in story and in their item/vehicle acquisitions. It may not seem like a big thing, but it is very useful, or so I have found in the past.
 

KinkyPrawn

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Proposal Type: Rule Amendment

Rule In Question: Legends

Proposal:
I think it would help out a bit to be more forgiving with Legends articles, for example concerning force powers, lore, etc. A good example I can think of is the Rakatan Infinite Empire. A lot of lore originates with them and their advancements in technology, not to mention the interactions they had with the Purebloods and Tatooine. There's also the origin of the Mandalorians which is a lot more colourful than what's currently listed in canon.

Of course things that conflict with canon may be left out as well as those super over the top stuff, but the things that give origin and better description to what's currently canon could make a fine addition to the collection imo.
 

Insoulent

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Uh I’ll try not to spam post, but I got a lot of ideas, so I’ll try and not clutter it too much.

Proposal Type: Rule Amendment

Rule In Question: Character/Tech/Lore/Planet Approvals

Proposal: Character profiles will require two other members to approve the sheet - and the mod will simply move the character to the approved section once everything is cleared. Mods will still have final word if they find any issues with the character however.

Tech/Lore/Planets would require three or more, as these could potentially have more impact to a story and faction. Same as character approval, mods still have final word on final edits. Also, a bonus: I think we should award members who expand the site lore, I don’t know how or with what exactly just something I think we could brainstorm on.

I think members should have a bit more responsibility around the forum, and gives an opportunity for members to interact with one another and decide for themselves what they want to role play and write with, while making a mod’s job a little easier(I think).

Quick to the point: Make the Admins focus on general storycrafting, board maintenance, as well as welcoming and helping new members. Aim for about 6 of these, as well as involving faction leaders in the storycrafting as they should know what’s going on in their factions and others to keep a tight and cohesive site story.

Mods should focus on making sure the approval boards are running smoothly, and handling any problems in threads (PvP or just general OOC disputes). Responsibilities of mods would be shared equally regardless of the board - meaning character/tech/lore mods would all be the same role and have the same job in every approval sub forum. Aim for about 8 of these, maybe 10 for good measure?


Lol TLDR....


Proposal Type: Rule Addition/Forum gameplay

Rule In Question: War/Style of Play/Writing

Proposal: The shortest way to explain this, is I think the site should completely overhaul the way we do battles and turn it into a type of “turf war”, with the Galactic Map divided into sections that the factions will fight over. But the idea can get a bit more...complex. The whole idea is to turn the War and battle threads into an overarching game with rules, goals, and special bonuses. But still, it’s a game and should be fun - and we should look for ways to minimize problems and complaints and encourage writers to cooperate with other writers.

The map would be divided into sections of sectors that would have specific benefits and key planets (capitols) which have a unit bonus to the factions owning them. For example: owning Hutt territory would benefit the faction’s weekly “credit” flow, while owning Corellia could give you elite pilot NPCs available in every battle while you have the sector, quick examples but could be anything. Some sectors might even offer a bonus fleet or tank, or special NPCs. Maybe even unlock a special type of technology for the faction that owns it???? (INVISIBILITY CLOAKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) They could be as passive or as game breaking as we could imagine.

To initiate a battle, the faction leadership would only have to give the approval to members willing to do the writing, just run by the general area you would want to go after and get the blessing of the faction leader. The sectors would have some lore and local NPC leaders that the staff would focus on creating and writing throughout the war, as well as keeping the lore constant and up to date depending on the events that transpire.

Engagement for sectors would be either diplomatically influenced in the sector capitol (closed staff GM’d thread), followed by establishing at least one base, space station, or temple on any planet of the faction’s choosing in that sector (limit 2). Failing the initial diplomatic mission would put a bounty on every PC involved in the thread.

Opposite of that is taking over through brute force by successful assassination of sector (NPC) leadership (GM’d by staff) as well as two open battle threads (at least one win), but would still give other factions the chance to stop another faction. Losing both battles would keep the sector neutral though the faction could install/appoint their own NPC leadership write up for future chances to regain the sector. No bounty is given via successfully assassinating a neutral NPC leader in a brute force campaign.

To make it even more complex, the way you take that sector, could also change how other factions interact with it in the future. If taken by force, an opposing faction would only have to win one battle in the sector capitol to take the entire sector over for their faction. A faction that loses a territory gained by brute force will be unable to attack the same sector until it is taken over by another faction. Any sector taken by brute force can also be diplomatically converted (1 closed/nonGM thread) after 21 OOC days of the last battle thread. This will then treat the sector as a “diplomatic acquired” sector, instead of just a brute force takeover.

Any sector taken over through diplomacy would have to lose three battles first, afterwards are given one final chance to protect their NPC sector leadership from being assassinated. If the leader survives assassination, the sector will simply return to the faction, while the assassin PC would get a bounty on their head regardless of success or failure. If NPC leadership is killed however the sector would go back to “neutral” and open to any faction.
 
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Ediwa

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Uh I’ll try not to spam post, but I got a lot of ideas, so I’ll try and not clutter it too much.

Proposal Type: Rule Amendment

Rule In Question: Character/Tech/Lore/Planet Approvals

Proposal: Character profiles will require two other members to approve the sheet - and the mod will simply move the character to the approved section once everything is cleared. Mods will still have final word if they find any issues with the character however.

Tech/Lore/Planets would require three or more, as these could potentially have more impact to a story and faction. Same as character approval, mods still have final word on final edits. Also, a bonus: I think we should award members who expand the site lore, I don’t know how or with what exactly just something I think we could brainstorm on.

I think members should have a bit more responsibility around the forum, and gives an opportunity for members to interact with one another and decide for themselves what they want to role play and write with, while making a mod’s job a little easier(I think).

Quick to the point: Make the Admins focus on general storycrafting, board maintenance, as well as welcoming and helping new members. Aim for about 6 of these, as well as involving faction leaders in the storycrafting as they should know what’s going on in their factions and others to keep a tight and cohesive site story.

Mods should focus on making sure the approval boards are running smoothly, and handling any problems in threads (PvP or just general OOC disputes). Responsibilities of mods would be shared equally regardless of the board - meaning character/tech/lore mods would all be the same role and have the same job in every approval sub forum. Aim for about 8 of these, maybe 10 for good measure?


Lol TLDR....


Proposal Type: Rule Addition/Forum gameplay

Rule In Question: War/Style of Play/Writing

Proposal: The shortest way to explain this, is I think the site should completely overhaul the way we do battles and turn it into a type of “turf war”, with the Galactic Map divided into sections that the factions will fight over. But the idea can get a bit more...complex. The whole idea is to turn the War and battle threads into an overarching game with rules, goals, and special bonuses. But still, it’s a game and should be fun - and we should look for ways to minimize problems and complaints and encourage writers to cooperate with other writers.

The map would be divided into sections of sectors that would have specific benefits and key planets (capitols) which have a unit bonus to the factions owning them. For example: owning Hutt territory would benefit the faction’s weekly “credit” flow, while owning Corellia could give you elite pilot NPCs available in every battle while you have the sector, quick examples but could be anything. Some sectors might even offer a bonus fleet or tank, or special NPCs. Maybe even unlock a special type of technology for the faction that owns it???? (INVISIBILITY CLOAKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) They could be as passive or as game breaking as we could imagine.

To initiate a battle, the faction leadership would only have to give the approval to members willing to do the writing, just run by the general area you would want to go after and get the blessing of the faction leader. The sectors would have some lore and local NPC leaders that the staff would focus on creating and writing throughout the war, as well as keeping the lore constant and up to date depending on the events that transpire.

Engagement for sectors would be either diplomatically influenced in the sector capitol (closed staff GM’d thread), followed by establishing at least one base, space station, or temple on any planet of the faction’s choosing in that sector (limit 2). Failing the initial diplomatic mission would put a bounty on every PC involved in the thread.

Opposite of that is taking over through brute force by successful assassination of sector (NPC) leadership (GM’d by staff) as well as two open battle threads (at least one win), but would still give other factions the chance to stop another faction. Losing both battles would keep the sector neutral though the faction could install/appoint their own NPC leadership write up for future chances to regain the sector. No bounty is given via successfully assassinating a neutral NPC leader in a brute force campaign.

To make it even more complex, the way you take that sector, could also change how other factions interact with it in the future. If taken by force, an opposing faction would only have to win one battle in the sector capitol to take the entire sector over for their faction. A faction that loses a territory gained by brute force will be unable to attack the same sector until it is taken over by another faction. Any sector taken by brute force can also be diplomatically converted (1 closed/nonGM thread) after 21 OOC days of the last battle thread. This will then treat the sector as a “diplomatic acquired” sector, instead of just a brute force takeover.

Any sector taken over through diplomacy would have to lose three battles first, afterwards are given one final chance to protect their NPC sector leadership from being assassinated. If the leader survives assassination, the sector will simply return to the faction, while the assassin PC would get a bounty on their head regardless of success or failure. If NPC leadership is killed however the sector would go back to “neutral” and open to any faction.
I like the idea of helping staff, but I don't support your war system suggestion. We don't need more and more restrictions, the focus should be freedom and immersion.
 

Insoulent

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Who doesn’t want to give the staff less work????? Glad you liked that idea at least.

And while I disagree that my battle idea would limit freedom or immersion, I think it encourages both, I’m glad you at least read it and hopefully understood it all. I’m running on almost 36 hours of awake time so I ramble on.

To get to my point - I just feel like battles and the War is always just background noise for the most part and battles get to a point of “get this over” after a while because there’s no incentive for a win outside the faction prestige. At least this gives them a “tangible” prize and goal to aim for in their battles.

My system would definitely require more member participation and initiative, but that brings forth solid community members and hopefully builds friendships from common interests/faction goals as well as frees Faction leadership to focus on missions packs, events and other stuff like that for the members to enjoy.

Also I should note not every member has to participate in the War aspect, you’d still be free to write and collab with anyone just like how it was before - just some sectors in space would simply be up for grabs in a territory game.
 

KinkyPrawn

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Who doesn’t want to give the staff less work????? Glad you liked that idea at least.

And while I disagree that my battle idea would limit freedom or immersion, I think it encourages both, I’m glad you at least read it and hopefully understood it all. I’m running on almost 36 hours of awake time so I ramble on.

To get to my point - I just feel like battles and the War is always just background noise for the most part and battles get to a point of “get this over” after a while because there’s no incentive for a win outside the faction prestige. At least this gives them a “tangible” prize and goal to aim for in their battles.

My system would definitely require more member participation and initiative, but that brings forth solid community members and hopefully builds friendships from common interests/faction goals as well as frees Faction leadership to focus on missions packs, events and other stuff like that for the members to enjoy.

Also I should note not every member has to participate in the War aspect, you’d still be free to write and collab with anyone just like how it was before - just some sectors in space would simply be up for grabs in a territory game.
I do get an idea of what you're trying to do, but it will naturally open up its own can of worms. Personally I like how the battle/war system works. You can get some sweet AT through the stuff with rewards, you get creds and you get promotions. And for a guy like me that loves those money, tech and flexing abilities that works pretty nice. My issue is with how PvP is handled but the system for invasions is pretty easy to work with in my opinion.
 

Gamov

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My suggestion isn't so much a rule as it is a mechanic of the current system, but here goes.

Proposal: 'Rule' Removal

'Rule in Question: Level System

Proposal: Quite simply, scrap it all together. I will admit that I was quite enthusiastic about this system when it was first announced, but in practice I found myself caring very little for it. First and foremost among my complaints about the system is I feel it stymies player creativity. I get the desire to curb characters starting out with obscene assets/notoriety out of the gate, but isn't that the job of the Character Mods? To comb through character sheets in search of inconsistencies and absurdities? Having the level system does half the work for the Mods already, and (from what I've seen at least) the default response on a number of character sheets has been "Level 1 characters can't do/own X thing. Fix that and tag me when you're done."

Not only is that, frankly, lazy, but it almost wholly detaches the Character Mod from the process of helping writers to bring their characters up to snuff with the site's story and lore. In fact, I would wager that character creation seems less about actual creation (as a result of the level system), and more about making sure you don't accidentally tick off a 'no-no' in the creation process to help speed approval.

Mind you, I do not speak on this issue from a position of ignorance. I am a former character mod myself (from well before we had a level system), and I personally welcomed the opportunity to engage with new members in open dialog on how to improve their characters. I actually even made a couple friends (who no longer frequent the site, sadly) as a result. Granted, the level system is not the sole cause of disconnect between mods and members (nor am I specifically calling any one individual out, to be clear), but the current level system just seems to promote a certain degree of laxness by constraining what avenues players can explore for their characters.
 

Sreeya

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My suggestion isn't so much a rule as it is a mechanic of the current system, but here goes.

Proposal: 'Rule' Removal

'Rule in Question: Level System

Proposal: Quite simply, scrap it all together. I will admit that I was quite enthusiastic about this system when it was first announced, but in practice I found myself caring very little for it. First and foremost among my complaints about the system is I feel it stymies player creativity. I get the desire to curb characters starting out with obscene assets/notoriety out of the gate, but isn't that the job of the Character Mods? To comb through character sheets in search of inconsistencies and absurdities? Having the level system does half the work for the Mods already, and (from what I've seen at least) the default response on a number of character sheets has been "Level 1 characters can't do/own X thing. Fix that and tag me when you're done."

Not only is that, frankly, lazy, but it almost wholly detaches the Character Mod from the process of helping writers to bring their characters up to snuff with the site's story and lore. In fact, I would wager that character creation seems less about actual creation (as a result of the level system), and more about making sure you don't accidentally tick off a 'no-no' in the creation process to help speed approval.

Mind you, I do not speak on this issue from a position of ignorance. I am a former character mod myself (from well before we had a level system), and I personally welcomed the opportunity to engage with new members in open dialog on how to improve their characters. I actually even made a couple friends (who no longer frequent the site, sadly) as a result. Granted, the level system is not the sole cause of disconnect between mods and members (nor am I specifically calling any one individual out, to be clear), but the current level system just seems to promote a certain degree of laxness by constraining what avenues players can explore for their characters.
How do you recommend power balances in pvp? It's not a character mod's job to babysit players through the entire progress of their character and to ensure that down the line no one is calling their chars a god. Say you have a scenario where a character looks perfectly fine when profile is posted. A week after that they claim their character is super powerful and can do xyz things and be a god. How would you track that? With a level system you can see exactly how much a character has been written and how much in use it has been and there's a semblance of justification for why a character is powerful. In the past, we had characters be powerful....just because. There was no rhyme or reason to it, no method to it.

What you're suggesting would work well in a site without pvp, which this isn't. With that said, please suggest a system that can abolish the level system, keep fairness in character strength and do so without overburdening character mods. It's a hobby job, and it should never become this tedious and horrible thing that takes up a tremendous amount of time. I'd love to see some alternatives.
 

Gamov

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How do you recommend power balances in pvp?
I'll try to keep my comments on this brief, as my opinions on PvP are well known by now, but suffice it to say, I don't think the site needs to be a PvP site. Simple as that.

To be perfectly frank, I think the PvP focus has done nothing but hurt membership here since it became more prevalent two (or was it three?) timelines ago. The community did not support the idea at large then, and as a result the 6th timeline was thrown into chaos. It leveled out some after a while, but not without losing a fair number of formerly active members in the process.

I've been roleplaying for years, well over a decade by now, and in that time I've been to dozens of sites, almost none of which had PvP as their focus. In fact, PvP was a term I seldom encountered in roleplay until I came here. In my very humble opinion, the only 'system' which needs to be in place isn't a system at all, but a site culture. One that doesn't promote members competing among themselves for prestige or levels.

That said, I've said my piece on this subject. I don't expect my opinions will change anything, but I felt it prudent to at least touch on the subject as I feel this site-wide 'burnout' everyone is currently feeling is due to more than simply an uninspired timeline. The simple fact is, membership is down, 'burnout' is sky high, and I believe both can be directly correlated to a rule heavy, PvP focused system that works for some but not all.
 

Sreeya

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I'll try to keep my comments on this brief, as my opinions on PvP are well known by now, but suffice it to say, I don't think the site needs to be a PvP site. Simple as that.

To be perfectly frank, I think the PvP focus has done nothing but hurt membership here since it became more prevalent two (or was it three?) timelines ago. The community did not support the idea at large then, and as a result the 6th timeline was thrown into chaos. It leveled out some after a while, but not without losing a fair number of formerly active members in the process.

I've been roleplaying for years, well over a decade by now, and in that time I've been to dozens of sites, almost none of which had PvP as their focus. In fact, PvP was a term I seldom encountered in roleplay until I came here. In my very humble opinion, the only 'system' which needs to be in place isn't a system at all, but a site culture. One that doesn't promote members competing among themselves for prestige or levels.

That said, I've said my piece on this subject. I don't expect my opinions will change anything, but I felt it prudent to at least touch on the subject as I feel this site-wide 'burnout' everyone is currently feeling is due to more than simply an uninspired timeline. The simple fact is, membership is down, 'burnout' is sky high, and I believe both can be directly correlated to a rule heavy, PvP focused system that works for some but not all.

I invited you to suggest a solution that works with what we have and your response is to shut the door or to just abolish another system. That doesn’t seem very collaborative. We’ve done a huge site survey and the latest results is that people prefer pvp remain a part of the site, but not have it be a focus. This surprised us, as it made us realize that very, very few people want to get rid of it entirely. Most are happy we have it, but they'd rather it take more of a backseat - and this is a sentiment I 100% agree with. And we made announcements with plans and events to focus on just that. As a result, none of our most recent events have been mandatory death enabled.

You’re right, your opinions won’t be heard when you shut the door on it when you are asked to provide a solution. So far you’ve suggested nothing constructive except to say “get rid of x and y”. That doesn’t actually offer any type of system or suggestion, it reads mainly as a complaint.

I will ask you again - tell me a system that can allow for pvp (not as the main focus) to exist in harmony without a level system. I don’t want the topic to be about whether we should have pvp or not as that’s a separate topic. I want you to tell me how to have a good system that works with pvp as a part of it. I liked your point about site culture, so can you elaborate on that? What is a way to make that work? How can you account for what characters have more prestige - say they can own more land or something, or they're more powerful, etc.
 
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Sreeya

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Uh I’ll try not to spam post, but I got a lot of ideas, so I’ll try and not clutter it too much.



Quick to the point: Make the Admins focus on general storycrafting, board maintenance, as well as welcoming and helping new members. Aim for about 6 of these, as well as involving faction leaders in the storycrafting as they should know what’s going on in their factions and others to keep a tight and cohesive site story.

Mods should focus on making sure the approval boards are running smoothly, and handling any problems in threads (PvP or just general OOC disputes). Responsibilities of mods would be shared equally regardless of the board - meaning character/tech/lore mods would all be the same role and have the same job in every approval sub forum. Aim for about 8 of these, maybe 10 for good measure?

I'll let discussion on the other topics continue before I weigh in, but I like this one. The issue is that sometimes members are uncomfortable with staff doing storycrafting. However, when we leave it entirely up to members, there's a lack of any real direction. What do you suggest as a good balance between staff involvement/member involvement? Who should own what? Who should drive and lead what? Because we tried the staff led story route, it didn't work. We tried the member led story route, also fizzled out. I'm not entirely sure what the right answer is without overburdening staff or members, so would love to hear thoughts on what could be a balance.
 

Gamov

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I invited you to suggest a solution that works with what we have and your response is to shut the door or to just abolish another system. That doesn’t seem very collaborative. We’ve done a huge site survey and the latest results is that people prefer pvp remain a part of the site, but not have it be a focus. This surprised us, as it made us realize that very, very few people want to get rid of it entirely. Most are happy we have it, but they'd rather it take more of a backseat - and this is a sentiment I 100% agree with. And we made announcements with plans and events to focus on just that. As a result, none of our most recent events have been mandatory death enabled.

You’re right, your opinions won’t be heard when you shut the door on it when you are asked to provide a solution. So far you’ve suggested nothing constructive except to say “get rid of x and y”. That doesn’t actually offer any type of system or suggestion, it reads mainly as a complaint.

I will ask you again - tell me a system that can allow for pvp (not as the main focus) to exist in harmony without a level system. I don’t want the topic to be about whether we should have pvp or not as that’s a separate topic. I want you to tell me how to have a good system that works with pvp as a part of it. I liked your point about site culture, so can you elaborate on that? What is a way to make that work? How can you account for what characters have more prestige - say they can own more land or something, or they're more powerful, etc.
Reading my earlier response, I do see how I came across as somewhat combative. And I realize that my comments on this subject tend to carry a certain air of animosity about them. It's not my intent to be uncooperative, as I would genuinely like to see the site move towards a fairer system that would not only encourage more activity from current members, but attract newcomers as well.

So in that respect, I do apologize for the tone of my previous response.

That said, however, I suppose I would find myself in agreement with the rest of the site that would like to see PvP take a backseat, rather than do away with it all together. I recognize that PvP is a play style some people like. But it seems the level system is currently skewed to reward that particular play style above all others.

What I would like to see is a level playing field. One where a PvP thread doesn't necessarily net one any additional perks or bonuses just by virtue of being 'higher risk' than any other thread. Is PvP higher risk? Obviously. Does that mean one should be given a reward just because of it? Not necessarily.

Now, I realize the plot system is another tool for non-PvP players to accrue some bonuses for themselves, but when you compare the workload required for a non-PvP player to attain the same bonuses as a PvP player, it seems fairly lop-sided. All the PvP player needs to do is win a PvP event or two, whereas the non-PvP plot takes several threads - some of which require staff DMing or PvP themselves, depending on the nature of the plot.

What I would really like to see is a site where all efforts are awarded equally, regardless of whether it's PvP or not. And to expand on the subject of the site's culture, I did see where an effort has been made to curb this 'insta-win' mentality that had taken over PvP. An effort which I applaud. Yet this effort seems to have come too little too late, as the real crux of the issue with PvP is in how it effects factions, and by extension, the flow and direction of the story.

It is no secret that the site has a very dedicated group of PvP players. And that these players tend to gravitate together into one or two factions from the outset of each timeline. With the current system, as has been the case in the last two timelines, one faction gains an insurmountable lead thanks to having an over abundance of PvP players in its ranks. This is something which was even joked about in the Discord channel (when I was still in it), with many admitting that X faction was losing because it lacked PvP players.

I personally believe that what is needed to prevent this kind of power imbalance is a mix of player sandboxing, and staff promoted events. I personally enjoyed the events which led up to the close of the 5th timeline. Sure the battles were set beforehand, but players were allowed to participate in a truly freeform way, whether they took part in the official main threads, or broke off to write their own private threads. It was a grand time, in my opinion, and one which I would gladly participate in again.

But I believe we can appease both PvP and non-PvP players alike with events like this by mixing freeform with predetermined story telling.

For example, let's say we have an event involving the battle for Coruscant with the Sith vs. the Jedi. Let's say the staff decide that Coruscant will fall to the Sith, but let's also say that the fates of the heroes in that battle are not guaranteed. Coruscant may fall, yes, but does the Jedi Grandmaster escape to rebuild the Order? Do the Jedi launch a successful strike team to assassinate the new would-be Sith Emperor before being driven off the planet? Sure the fate of Coruscant is decided, but what if the Sith win a Pyrrhic victory in the process by losing their leader? Or what if both sides lose their leaders?

What story might the community build out of that? Who would rise to assume control of the Jedi or Sith? Could the Jedi mount a successful counterattack while the Sith lick their wounds and squabble over a new leader? Or will something entirely unexpected come of it? Who knows.

This would prevent any one faction from becoming overly powerful by mere virtue of having attracted the most PvP players, while also providing structure and direction for the story that relies on equal commitment from both the members and staff. Staff to write crucial 'waypoints' in the story, and members to decide how the story will branch from there.

Overall, I miss the early days from when I first joined the site. Long before character levels or PvP or battle systems. Call me old fashioned, but things are far too complex as they are now. The rules are an exhausting laundry list that I doubt anyone can recall from memory, and I personally find sub-accounts tedious. That's more a matter of personal opinion though than a real complaint. Unless others find sub-accounts as irritating as I do?

Either way, the long and short of my opinion is we need to stop rewarding PvP simply because it's PvP. In the grand scheme of things, it's nothing more than a preferred play style, the same as templates and layouts for a character sheets. To promote one over the other isn't really giving others a fair shake. Let people play how they wish, so long as it's an even playing field where one play style doesn't have certain advantages over all others.
 
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GABA

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@Gamov

You bring up a good observation about PvP regarding the niche it has created for specific members on the site and I absolutely see how in plots there is a lopsided observation to it. Personally, what I would like to see is that PvP doesn't become niche next TL, but another story element but with boundaries to make sure members don't go too overboard with it. I think its important as it is Star *wars* and battles do happen, but I also don't want to see it so one sided that people avoid it all together because of some of the issues you have mentioned.
 

Yuan

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I had intended for this to be a thread for ideas to be posted, not for conversation on said ideas. That being said it seems to be functioning just fine as a conversation, so.... Carry on.


I'd like to weigh in on @Gamov and @Sreeya 's conversation, because I have some ideas that could potentially be relevant to just what y'all are talking about.

I should start by saying that I am a supporter of PVP. I love it... Even though it has never gone particularly well for me on this site, lol. I would be very disappointed if it went away. That being said, I understand that there are a number of members who are not fans of it and avoid it at all costs. I can understand this as well, as PVP has the potential to blow up into a rather unpleasant experience should misunderstandings and disagreements arise. So, I agree with the sentiment that PVP should stay, but that it should not be pushed as much. Also, I feel that non-PVPers should not be limited in their effect on the site and overall story. I do think, though that we should keep the level system so as to continue to measure combat potential for PVPers and Fame/Noteriety level for non-PVPers.

How do we level the playing field though? That may be where I could shine some light.

My suggestion is "CHALLENGE THREADS".

I'm borrowing this from a large and successful site I was a member of long ago. On that site, members could request "Challenge Threads" for their characters. These threads were significantly more difficult than your average thread and could result in character death (not required for us, read further down), but the rewards were equivalently higher, and the members involved could have a greater influence on the site story by doing these threads (they had site events as well, much like our own, but challenge threads could be requested at any time). The beauty of the Challenge Thread (I think) is that it could take several different forms for us:

Combat Challenge (PVNPC): This could be a death-enabled, DMed thread where the member takes their character on a quest to achieve a major story goal or acquire some major prize where combat would be highly likely and death waits around every corner. I think we are fairly familiar with this sort of thing, but this would give members the opportunity to enter into that sort of highly challenging story without requiring PVP for any sort of bonus or influence. For example, a mandalorian killing a sith was a pretty big boon this TL. But why make the Mando members hunt down sith PCs for that bonus? Have them request a Combat Challenge and give them an exceptionally strong NPC sith to take down and then reward them for the job well done!

Combat Challenge (OPEN): We all know the open pvp threads around here. Someone's feeling strong and itching for a fight, so they make one of these and the PVPers come running. Usually they had to switch the thread to ASK after a few characters joined or else the thread would turn into a big old messy melee and take forever. We could leave this sort of thing in play and use it in the following way. The member requests the Open Thread and starts it, and then PC resistance could come in from a willing challenger to provide the challenge for the instigator. If no PC resistance comes in within the first 72 hours of the thread being started, or maybe the first 3 posting rounds, then a DM on standby will jump in to provide appropriate NPC resistance. For example, take last TL. The sith created a powerful fleet and (towards the end of the TL) started rolling around the galaxy, jumping here and there, and just blasting the holy hell out of any planets they chose (looking at you @Sreeya and @Phoenix, lol). They virtually always did this in OPEN threads, so if someone had the means, they could have jumped in and tried to stop them. But, no one had the means. So, that sort of thread would fall into the CHALLENGE OPEN category in my scenario. So, the sith would request the thread, they would begin their approach and prepare to attack, and if no PC forces jumped in to stop them, a DM would jump in with NPC forces to put up a fight. I mean, logically, surely some of those planets would have had navies or defense forces that would have had to have been dealt with, right? Yes, the sith fleet was pretty ridiculous at that point, but there should have been at least some resistance they would have had to push through. So, this would ensure that even if some character or faction became so unbalanced as to curb stomp whomever they wanted on the site, they would still face challenges and setbacks.

Non-Combat Challenge (PVP/PVNPC): This is something a little new that I thought up. Consider, if you will, the United Protectorate that was created this TL. This is a group of characters that are strictly political, and economic, certainly not combat-oriented. Now, if a senator wanted to push a major bill through the senate (like, say forming the GAR or something) it wouldn't make much sense for that senator to pick up their blasters or laser sword and start hacking their way through a sea of bodies to accomplish their goal, right? But it would be challenging. It could be dangerous, and it could result in repercussions if they failed. A senator that fails in such an endeavor could be ridiculed and could lose recognition and influence in the senate. Perhaps they would lose allies or even the support of the planet or system which they represent. This could be reflected in a loss of credits which could decrease their level, but not result in character death. Basically, by entering into one of these threads you are gambling your character's influence and position, but not the character themselves. Perhaps this would be an enjoyable challenge for those members who dislike combat?

Espionage Challenge (PVNPC): So, say you have a character who wants to infiltrate something. Steal something highly valuable from a prominent figure or force in the galaxy or perhaps launch a guerrilla campaign against such an existence? This would be the espionage challenge. A character would have to carefully maneuver through threads like this. Not necessarily focused in combat, but could devolve into such a state if the player isn't smart about it. Take the Mando's bombing of sith bases earlier on in this TL? Maybe they face the appropriate challenge of accomplishing such a task even if they aren't faced with PC sith standing in their way? This would be a cool kind of puzzle-type thread where the member has to pick their way carefully through the story lest dangerous repercussions result. Perhaps an espionage thread that goes bad could result in death, or perhaps it could result in a Penalty Thread where the character is caught and imprisoned and then they have to do a thread to escape their captors? Perhaps these penalty threads (which could be death enabled or not) could involve PCs from the opposing faction that the member was trying to sabotage (or not, either way)? If they fail that thread, then their character is still trapped. This could be a useful tool in those threads involving stealing another factions assets or infiltrating another factions base, etc.




We could make other variations of the Challenge Thread if we thought of more uses for it, but those are some of the ones that come to my mind. The beauty of it is, there are variations in there that don't involve PVP, and even don't involve combat, at all! This still recognizes meaningful PVP or meaningful combat, but also opens doors for non-PVP players or even non-combat players to have a greater impact on the story and gain some of those bonuses that have thus far been reserved for PVP. Also, I think we should abolish the bonus for general PVP. If my rouge character in the outer rim kills @KinkyPrawn 's rouge character in the outer rim, why would that matter? Did Han Solo become famous for gunning down Tobias Beckett in the sparsely inhabited desert of Savareen, or killing Greedo in a cantina on Tatooine? No, Solo became famous for swindling nearly everyone in the galaxy. You could say his notoriety came more from story than combat.

My proposed system requires a lot of DMing. And that could put a lot of strain on the mods. So, I would propose another solution from an old site I was on once upon a time. We could establish a list of members who are pre-approved by the staff to DM for Challenge Threads. We had these on this other site. They were not mods. They differed from other members in no way except that they had been recognized by the staff for their prowess at DMing and thus were approved to DM important threads that otherwise would require mod attention.


So... Yeah... this is long. But in a nutshell, this system would enable mini-events for members of all playing types to take part in anytime and anywhere they choose, and could potentially give members of all playing types the opportunity to have an impact on the overall site story and benefit from the bonuses that have been available only through PVP thus far. It's not perfect, I'm sure, and would likely need some refining and hashing out... But maybe it's a start?
 

Yuan

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I suppose you could say that this is kind of a refinement of the plot system we already have in place, just with a more pronounced method of influencing the site as a whole and recognizing non-PVP actions.
 

KinkyPrawn

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I had intended for this to be a thread for ideas to be posted, not for conversation on said ideas. That being said it seems to be functioning just fine as a conversation, so.... Carry on.


I'd like to weigh in on @Gamov and @Sreeya 's conversation, because I have some ideas that could potentially be relevant to just what y'all are talking about.

I should start by saying that I am a supporter of PVP. I love it... Even though it has never gone particularly well for me on this site, lol. I would be very disappointed if it went away. That being said, I understand that there are a number of members who are not fans of it and avoid it at all costs. I can understand this as well, as PVP has the potential to blow up into a rather unpleasant experience should misunderstandings and disagreements arise. So, I agree with the sentiment that PVP should stay, but that it should not be pushed as much. Also, I feel that non-PVPers should not be limited in their effect on the site and overall story. I do think, though that we should keep the level system so as to continue to measure combat potential for PVPers and Fame/Noteriety level for non-PVPers.

How do we level the playing field though? That may be where I could shine some light.

My suggestion is "CHALLENGE THREADS".

I'm borrowing this from a large and successful site I was a member of long ago. On that site, members could request "Challenge Threads" for their characters. These threads were significantly more difficult than your average thread and could result in character death (not required for us, read further down), but the rewards were equivalently higher, and the members involved could have a greater influence on the site story by doing these threads (they had site events as well, much like our own, but challenge threads could be requested at any time). The beauty of the Challenge Thread (I think) is that it could take several different forms for us:

Combat Challenge (PVNPC): This could be a death-enabled, DMed thread where the member takes their character on a quest to achieve a major story goal or acquire some major prize where combat would be highly likely and death waits around every corner. I think we are fairly familiar with this sort of thing, but this would give members the opportunity to enter into that sort of highly challenging story without requiring PVP for any sort of bonus or influence. For example, a mandalorian killing a sith was a pretty big boon this TL. But why make the Mando members hunt down sith PCs for that bonus? Have them request a Combat Challenge and give them an exceptionally strong NPC sith to take down and then reward them for the job well done!

Combat Challenge (OPEN): We all know the open pvp threads around here. Someone's feeling strong and itching for a fight, so they make one of these and the PVPers come running. Usually they had to switch the thread to ASK after a few characters joined or else the thread would turn into a big old messy melee and take forever. We could leave this sort of thing in play and use it in the following way. The member requests the Open Thread and starts it, and then PC resistance could come in from a willing challenger to provide the challenge for the instigator. If no PC resistance comes in within the first 72 hours of the thread being started, or maybe the first 3 posting rounds, then a DM on standby will jump in to provide appropriate NPC resistance. For example, take last TL. The sith created a powerful fleet and (towards the end of the TL) started rolling around the galaxy, jumping here and there, and just blasting the holy hell out of any planets they chose (looking at you @Sreeya and @Phoenix, lol). They virtually always did this in OPEN threads, so if someone had the means, they could have jumped in and tried to stop them. But, no one had the means. So, that sort of thread would fall into the CHALLENGE OPEN category in my scenario. So, the sith would request the thread, they would begin their approach and prepare to attack, and if no PC forces jumped in to stop them, a DM would jump in with NPC forces to put up a fight. I mean, logically, surely some of those planets would have had navies or defense forces that would have had to have been dealt with, right? Yes, the sith fleet was pretty ridiculous at that point, but there should have been at least some resistance they would have had to push through. So, this would ensure that even if some character or faction became so unbalanced as to curb stomp whomever they wanted on the site, they would still face challenges and setbacks.

Non-Combat Challenge (PVP/PVNPC): This is something a little new that I thought up. Consider, if you will, the United Protectorate that was created this TL. This is a group of characters that are strictly political, and economic, certainly not combat-oriented. Now, if a senator wanted to push a major bill through the senate (like, say forming the GAR or something) it wouldn't make much sense for that senator to pick up their blasters or laser sword and start hacking their way through a sea of bodies to accomplish their goal, right? But it would be challenging. It could be dangerous, and it could result in repercussions if they failed. A senator that fails in such an endeavor could be ridiculed and could lose recognition and influence in the senate. Perhaps they would lose allies or even the support of the planet or system which they represent. This could be reflected in a loss of credits which could decrease their level, but not result in character death. Basically, by entering into one of these threads you are gambling your character's influence and position, but not the character themselves. Perhaps this would be an enjoyable challenge for those members who dislike combat?

Espionage Challenge (PVNPC): So, say you have a character who wants to infiltrate something. Steal something highly valuable from a prominent figure or force in the galaxy or perhaps launch a guerrilla campaign against such an existence? This would be the espionage challenge. A character would have to carefully maneuver through threads like this. Not necessarily focused in combat, but could devolve into such a state if the player isn't smart about it. Take the Mando's bombing of sith bases earlier on in this TL? Maybe they face the appropriate challenge of accomplishing such a task even if they aren't faced with PC sith standing in their way? This would be a cool kind of puzzle-type thread where the member has to pick their way carefully through the story lest dangerous repercussions result. Perhaps an espionage thread that goes bad could result in death, or perhaps it could result in a Penalty Thread where the character is caught and imprisoned and then they have to do a thread to escape their captors? Perhaps these penalty threads (which could be death enabled or not) could involve PCs from the opposing faction that the member was trying to sabotage (or not, either way)? If they fail that thread, then their character is still trapped. This could be a useful tool in those threads involving stealing another factions assets or infiltrating another factions base, etc.




We could make other variations of the Challenge Thread if we thought of more uses for it, but those are some of the ones that come to my mind. The beauty of it is, there are variations in there that don't involve PVP, and even don't involve combat, at all! This still recognizes meaningful PVP or meaningful combat, but also opens doors for non-PVP players or even non-combat players to have a greater impact on the story and gain some of those bonuses that have thus far been reserved for PVP. Also, I think we should abolish the bonus for general PVP. If my rouge character in the outer rim kills @KinkyPrawn 's rouge character in the outer rim, why would that matter? Did Han Solo become famous for gunning down Tobias Beckett in the sparsely inhabited desert of Savareen, or killing Greedo in a cantina on Tatooine? No, Solo became famous for swindling nearly everyone in the galaxy. You could say his notoriety came more from story than combat.

My proposed system requires a lot of DMing. And that could put a lot of strain on the mods. So, I would propose another solution from an old site I was on once upon a time. We could establish a list of members who are pre-approved by the staff to DM for Challenge Threads. We had these on this other site. They were not mods. They differed from other members in no way except that they had been recognized by the staff for their prowess at DMing and thus were approved to DM important threads that otherwise would require mod attention.


So... Yeah... this is long. But in a nutshell, this system would enable mini-events for members of all playing types to take part in anytime and anywhere they choose, and could potentially give members of all playing types the opportunity to have an impact on the overall site story and benefit from the bonuses that have been available only through PVP thus far. It's not perfect, I'm sure, and would likely need some refining and hashing out... But maybe it's a start?

I like the ideas, and I also like the fact that there is an option for PvP for those that want it. The only thing that bothers me about your ideas, Yuan, is the same reason I avoided PvP for entire months this TL: Death-Enabled.

I like the aspect of PvP and as Gaba said, it's STAR WARS. The only thing that irks me is the mandatory death enabled to be able to accomplish anything in the site. It's also what kept me from making a mando this entire TL. It felt like it had made a group that didn't care about other characters or players, it only cared about getting another lightsaber and a noth on the helmet.

I feel that if we could have a system that doesn't force character death down our throats so much would go down a lot smoother...that sentence sounded weird...but it would make these things a lot more inclusive to new players and help people develop their skills. I wanna do PvP but I know I won't survive fir a second against almost anyone on the site. It's also why I'm extremely hesitant to use DM's, because it has a good chance to go very south for me in threads. Nefieslab has given me a very good example of that xD

TL;DR, make a chiller pvp system. I know Gaba is working on that new system of hers and I'm dying to see where it goes and how it plays out. But on top of that I'm suggesting either changing the mentality of PvP on the site or making death disabled DMing and PvP a bit more significant. Or perhaps both.
 

Sreeya

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I’m all for death disabled pvp all around. But how do you account for taking characters out of power or to ensure that characters can’t lose a fight and just come back and continue the same problems they did before? No one wants to have their character die and death enabled results in sense of accomplishments in killing that big bad mean Sith Lord or killing a Jedi master to demoralize the Jedi. Just like you see in movies. Like how do you capture that if no one ever dies and losing a battle carries less weight?

When we rolled out battle of coruscant or even some battles in this timeline that had death disabled, it fizzled out after a few rounds. In death enabled? People track that shit from beginning to end and get hyped about what’s gonna happen. Again, if there’s a way we can capture this with death disabled I’m all for it. I’ve just never seen it pulled off.
 

Yuan

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If that's the issue, I would draw attention to the Non-Combat PVP option I had posted. Equivalent credit deductions, leading to character level drop and demotion as far as site-influence and story-influence as opposed to straight character death. People love their characters and put a lot of work into them. They're afraid to lose them. I get that. So offer an alternative in the form of a big step backwards in character development and advancement. Right now if your character dies, you lose half of your earned credits. So make that happen without the death and suddenly the character becomes that disgraced former-general or former politician, or former bounty hunter, striving to claw their way back to the top after their miserable defeat.
 
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