Public Rules Proposals

Yuan

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I suppose my relatively simple counter-argument to "it's already too difficult for non-FS to beat FS" is that the Mandalorians have won almost every single engagement they've had against the Sith this entire TL. I'm not saying that that's exclusively because of the current rule system, but it's difficult to make the argument "non-FS are underpowered" when they're constantly winning.

Oy vey... *Rubs forehead*

The reason why the Mandolorians were overpowered this TL and why they washed over the sith like a tidal wave is because 99% of this site's experienced, skilled, and regular PVPers FLOCKED to the Mandalorians. The Mandalorians were seriously unbalanced from the get-go of this TL. Logically they should have started as a small resistance movement in an occupied territory, but from the start they had a high member base, and they moved faster than the other factions, grew faster, and were more aggressive. This is because they had most of the members with highest activity, and because they had most of the members with the most PVP skill. It was not the site mechanics that caused the mandos to wipe out the sith in PVP. The members who joined the mandos would have had the highest kill counts on the site no matter what faction they joined.

This always seems to happen. One faction (usually the newer or cooler ones, the ones "supposed" to be the underdogs) ends up being significantly more popular than the others and it inevitably has way more activity and attracts way more veterans than any of the others, and that faction will end up curb-stomping the galaxy. Last TL it was the sith. This TL it was the Mandos.

If faction balance is what you're on about, don't change site mechanics. Just create a rule that says that Phoenix, Darasum (now Darasaurus I guess?), Sreeya and a handful of other veterans are not allowed to be in the same faction this time.

I'm not b*tching. I don't really mind that that happens. I like having a big target to aim at. Granted I've never been able to get my plans off the ground. That's mainly cause I work too much. But since I recently quit my job, this next TL might be different.

The sith of last TL, were largely untouchable except by the jedi, and that was under current levels of force strength. That was because the sith had a disproportionate number of the veterans and the PVPers. If you go and make the force even stronger, and the Vets and PVPs flock to a FS faction next TL, it's going to be game over from the get-go.
 

Wit

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Oy vey... *Rubs forehead*

The reason why the Mandolorians were overpowered this TL and why they washed over the sith like a tidal wave is because 99% of this site's experienced, skilled, and regular PVPers FLOCKED to the Mandalorians. The Mandalorians were seriously unbalanced from the get-go of this TL. Logically they should have started as a small resistance movement in an occupied territory, but from the start they had a high member base, and they moved faster than the other factions, grew faster, and were more aggressive. This is because they had most of the members with highest activity, and because they had most of the members with the most PVP skill. It was not the site mechanics that caused the mandos to wipe out the sith in PVP. The members who joined the mandos would have had the highest kill counts on the site no matter what faction they joined.

This always seems to happen. One faction (usually the newer or cooler ones, the ones "supposed" to be the underdogs) ends up being significantly more popular than the others and it inevitably has way more activity and attracts way more veterans than any of the others, and that faction will end up curb-stomping the galaxy. Last TL it was the sith. This TL it was the Mandos.

If faction balance is what you're on about, don't change site mechanics. Just create a rule that says that Phoenix, Darasum (now Darasaurus I guess?), Sreeya and a handful of other veterans are not allowed to be in the same faction this time.

I'm not b*tching. I don't really mind that that happens. I like having a big target to aim at. Granted I've never been able to get my plans off the ground. That's mainly cause I work too much. But since I recently quit my job, this next TL might be different.

The sith of last TL, were largely untouchable except by the jedi, and that was under current levels of force strength. That was because the sith had a disproportionate number of the veterans and the PVPers. If you go and make the force even stronger, and the Vets and PVPs flock to a FS faction next TL, it's going to be game over from the get-go.
This really seems like you’re letting personal complaints color the truth. Sure, the Sith were strong last TL, but they took months of hard work and smart moves to get to that position. Part of why the Jedi didn’t attack then was because they didn’t know what they were doing. Same for the Mandos, they were built up to be the fun faction they are and so even more people flocked to it.

A faction isn’t active and successful because it is full of “vets”, it’s the other way around. And if you actually go and look at all those vets you’ll see most of them had non mando characters as their mains.

A genuine question I have is have you actually tried participating in a PvP as a low level FS character? Or any FS character for that matter? A lot of your arguments come across as what you fear happens instead of what we know to actually happen. We literally have the issue of FS characters going tech heavy because the Force is so needed.
 

Phoenix

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Oy vey... *Rubs forehead*

The reason why the Mandolorians were overpowered this TL and why they washed over the sith like a tidal wave is because 99% of this site's experienced, skilled, and regular PVPers FLOCKED to the Mandalorians. The Mandalorians were seriously unbalanced from the get-go of this TL. Logically they should have started as a small resistance movement in an occupied territory, but from the start they had a high member base, and they moved faster than the other factions, grew faster, and were more aggressive. This is because they had most of the members with highest activity, and because they had most of the members with the most PVP skill. It was not the site mechanics that caused the mandos to wipe out the sith in PVP. The members who joined the mandos would have had the highest kill counts on the site no matter what faction they joined.

This always seems to happen. One faction (usually the newer or cooler ones, the ones "supposed" to be the underdogs) ends up being significantly more popular than the others and it inevitably has way more activity and attracts way more veterans than any of the others, and that faction will end up curb-stomping the galaxy. Last TL it was the sith. This TL it was the Mandos.

If faction balance is what you're on about, don't change site mechanics. Just create a rule that says that Phoenix, Darasum (now Darasaurus I guess?), Sreeya and a handful of other veterans are not allowed to be in the same faction this time.

I'm not b*tching. I don't really mind that that happens. I like having a big target to aim at. Granted I've never been able to get my plans off the ground. That's mainly cause I work too much. But since I recently quit my job, this next TL might be different.

The sith of last TL, were largely untouchable except by the jedi, and that was under current levels of force strength. That was because the sith had a disproportionate number of the veterans and the PVPers. If you go and make the force even stronger, and the Vets and PVPs flock to a FS faction next TL, it's going to be game over from the get-go.

This really doesn't have anything to do with what I just said. Your argument in your last post was "non-FS are underpowered." I disagreed with you and presented proof to the contrary. If an entire faction - that has many more people than just myself, Sreeya, and Dara so you probably shouldn't oversimplify - is capable of winning most of its fights, then it must not be the case that non-FS are anywhere near as hugely underpowered as you're implying.

Furthermore, I'm not proposing any of this to "balance the factions." You're the only person that's brought that up now. The factions in the next TL will probably look wildly different than they do now. I am tired of seeing FS use tech because it gives a perceived advantage.
 

Yuan

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Would anyone like to engage in a mock pvp battle with me? I'll use a dummy lvl-1 sith acolyte, you can use a dummy lvl 1... well anything else that's not FS. I'll use nothing but the lightsaber and the force. You can use any gentech that would be acceptable at start-up. Obviously no ships because lvl 1 FS can't do anything against ships. I can show y'all what I am on about, or y'all can show me where I am gravely mistaken. All in good fun, this is simply a test. I'll even do it with Phoenix, an old pro who has killed me in PvP before.

Also, the only reason why I brought up faction imbalance is because your retort to my argument that the force is already powerful enough was "But the mandos have killed a bunch of sith!" My counter argument is "Well that's because the mandos could have killed a whole bunch of whatever the hell they wanted this TL. Their prey of choice just happened to be sith."

And again, I'm not knocking the vets for this. Y'all are friends and want to RP together. That's logical. Y'all have similar styles and goals in your RPing too. So it's logical that y'all would be drawn to one another in the RP. I'm not complaining. I'm not saying it's unfair. I'm not saying that there is some sort of conspiracy. My comment about y'all not being allowed on the same faction was intended as a joke. All I'm saying is, in baseball, the team that winds up with the ace pitcher and a bunch of strong batters is probably going to end up being the best team in the league. The chips just fell where they may, and that's how it ended up. Doesn't mean they need to change the rules of baseball.
 

Wit

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Oy vey. So the issue isn’t FS vs NFS balance but some faction getting a bunch of “vets” and becoming too strong? I’ve seen a few comments in this thread that seem to stem from issues people experienced with their factions and not really anything to do with the Force. The fact that you’re asking for a mock fight to understand what’s unbalanced about the Force and we’re giving examples should say something.

Also, just so you know, most of the kills the mandos have came from non-vets and low level characters at that. I don’t think Sree or Phoe have almost any kills with their mandos.
 

Yuan

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Dar, I believe has 5 or 6.

Yes, but I believe all of your examples are false and inaccurate. That's why I welcome the opportunity for someone to do this experiment with me to illustrate what they are talking about.
 

Wit

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Dar, I believe has 5 or 6.

Yes, but I believe all of your examples are false and inaccurate. That's why I welcome the opportunity for someone to do this experiment with me to illustrate what they are talking about.
The onus of proof lies with you. Point out which examples are false and why, otherwise why should we even bother with what you think.
 

Yuan

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I believe the onus of proof lies with the ones trying to push for altering the law already in place. I am for keeping as is. And I'm tired of going back and forth, from point to point, on and on. It's exhausting and it just levels out to be a ridiculous argument. You have a hypothesis, I have an opposing hypothesis, lets experiment and analyze the data. I don't mind being proven wrong, but I'm not going to be proven wrong by conjecture and opinion, unless the majority of the site feels the same.
 

Wit

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I believe the onus of proof lies with the ones trying to push for altering the law already in place. I am for keeping as is. And I'm tired of going back and forth, from point to point, on and on. It's exhausting and it just levels out to be a ridiculous argument. You have a hypothesis, I have an opposing hypothesis, lets experiment and analyze the data. I don't mind being proven wrong, but I'm not going to be proven wrong by conjecture and opinion, unless the majority of the site feels the same.
I too am tired of this back and forth. We’ve put forward our arguments, and from reactions it seems to be there are people who do agree with what we are saying. Probably because they have participated in actual PvPs and witnessed this disparity. You don’t believe it, good for you, but I see no point in going through a mock fight just to prove something to one person. The point did get across to people and that’s good enough. The fact that it is getting discussed and is now on the table is enough for me. One person disagreeing makes little difference.
 

Sreeya

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@Yuan I don't give a crap what gripes you have with what rules, but I will 100% put my foot down on absurd suggestions like dictating that certain players can't join certain factions together. This site will NEVER, EVER try to dictate where ANY player can join or not join vets or not. That is NEVER going to happen, so you can stop that line of thought right now.

If you have no posts to make other than trashing and targeting vets, I suggest you stop posting here. Further replies that take potshots like that will be deleted as you're not even contributing to a healthy discussion at this point. Come back with something constructive that isn't insulting to specific folks, where you're LITERALLY CALLING PEOPLE OUT BY NAME, or get out of this thread.
 
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Painus

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I'm not sure about other people, but I personally think that if you've had no stake in the TL or don't participate much at all, your opinions on which factions were stacked with vets or caused the detriment of the TL hold no merit whatsoever. The Sith's FL was Phoe, the Jedi had Malon, Dev, and Orbit, the Mandos had Sree.... Not exactly seeing things highly imbalanced here. Most of these vets that apparently cause a significant imbalance rarely even PvP'd this TL compared to previous ones, so why specifically target them? It seems vindictive for no reason but to air your grievances with someone.

The Mandos were so successful because they had the best hype train and people created characters because they were fun. The Sith were stacked last TL because their story was awesome. People will naturally gravitate towards the most interesting faction every TL, and whining that one faction dominated the others because it had more active members seems childish to me.
 

Yuan

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@Yuan I don't give a crap what gripes you have with what rules, but I will 100% put my foot down on absurd suggestions like dictating that certain players can't join certain factions together. This site will NEVER, EVER try to dictate where ANY player can join or not join vets or not. That is NEVER going to happen, so you can stop that line of thought right now.

If you have no posts to make other than trashing and targeting vets, I suggest you stop posting here. Further replies that take potshots like that will be deleted as you're not even contributing to a healthy discussion at this point. Come back with something constructive that isn't insulting to specific folks, where you're LITERALLY CALLING PEOPLE OUT BY NAME, or get out.


Sreeya, you completely misunderstand.

I was in no way calling anyone out.

My comment about dictating that vets couldn't be in the same faction was intended in an incredulous fashion. Like saying "You might as well tell the sky not to be blue." Or some such idiom.

The point that was made was the idea that force powers should be strengthened. I made the counter argument that force powers were strong enough and two different people pointed out that the mandalorians slaughtered the sith this TL and that was evidence that the force powers were not strong enough.

My counter to that was that the mandos did well because of their popularity. They attracted not only large numbers of players in general, but large numbers of high quality players as well. That's why they did so well.

You can't deny the fact that the factions you join and eventually take the lead of usually do quite well Sreeya. You have a skill for visualizing, building, and leading factions. It's wonderful. I'm not calling you out on that, I'm complimenting you on that.

Pho and Dar are both fairly regular PvPers and their skills show. I've been killed by Phoenix before. I bear him no ill will. On the contrary, I hold them in high regards. I even asked him immediately after if my new sith character could become an apprentice of his character who killed my first one, lol.

My point in pointing y'all out was to illustrate the fact that the Mando faction got a lot of attention from quality veteran players and that, along with the efforts of numerous other players both new and old (the mando's won the popularity contest this TL, lol) is a major reason why the Mandos did so well this TL and why they were able to wipe out the sith so easily.
 

Yuan

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I'm not sure about other people, but I personally think that if you've had no stake in the TL or don't participate much at all, your opinions on which factions were stacked with vets or caused the detriment of the TL hold no merit whatsoever. The Sith's FL was Phoe, the Jedi had Malon, Dev, and Orbit, the Mandos had Sree.... Not exactly seeing things highly imbalanced here. Most of these vets that apparently cause a significant imbalance rarely even PvP'd this TL compared to previous ones, so why specifically target them? It seems vindictive for no reason but to air your grievances with someone.

The Mandos were so successful because they had the best hype train and people created characters because they were fun. The Sith were stacked last TL because their story was awesome. People will naturally gravitate towards the most interesting faction every TL, and whining that one faction dominated the others because it had more active members seems childish to me.

Wow! People! Y'all are reading WAY too deep into my argument. ALL I was saying was that I don't feel that force powers need to be strengthened because the Mandos killed a bunch of sith this TL. I never said anything about detriments to the TL. My only point was that the Mandos killed a lot of sith because they had numerous quality RPers who advance quickly and move decisively, that is all. If anything it was intended as a compliment to the Mandos.
 

Yuan

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The reason why the Mandolorians were overpowered this TL and why they washed over the sith like a tidal wave is because 99% of this site's experienced, skilled, and regular PVPers FLOCKED to the Mandalorians. The Mandalorians were seriously unbalanced from the get-go of this TL. Logically they should have started as a small resistance movement in an occupied territory, but from the start they had a high member base, and they moved faster than the other factions, grew faster, and were more aggressive. This is because they had most of the members with highest activity, and because they had most of the members with the most PVP skill. It was not the site mechanics that caused the mandos to wipe out the sith in PVP. The members who joined the mandos would have had the highest kill counts on the site no matter what faction they joined.

Okay, so I've been reading back through my posts to see what I said that pissed so many people off, and I think maybe this is it here. So I probably didn't phrase this very well for what I intended to say. It was midnight last night and I had been at work all day. I wasn't doing a very good job here expressing my argument. I used some exaggeration to try and emphasize my point, and it may have come across like I was complaining about the mandos and the people who were playing them. THIS WAS NOT MY INTENT.

I apologize.

My only INTENDED message was that the mandos did super well because, as Painus said, they had the best "hype train" and they drew in so many veteran as well as new members.
 

Wit

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As a I said earlier, almost all vets have almost no kills to their names this TL. Most of the mando wins were by non vets and I have seen the same people win as mandos and lose as FS characters. But I do agree with Painus, I personally don’t think you’ve seen or participated in enough PvPs this TL to comment on the state of the power balance. The fact that you ask for someone to fight you to explain what the imbalance is more than proves the point.
 

Yuan

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As a I said earlier, almost all vets have almost no kills to their names this TL. Most of the mando wins were by non vets and I have seen the same people win as mandos and lose as FS characters. But I do agree with Painus, I personally don’t think you’ve seen or participated in enough PvPs this TL to comment on the state of the power balance. The fact that you ask for someone to fight you to explain what the imbalance is more than proves the point.

You are incorrect sir. I want to do a mock battle so that I can illustrate MY points in a way that you can plainly see. But, that's fine. I will wash my hands of this and take a big step back because I have apparently already misstepped and pissed some people off for something that is actually completely unrelated to this discussion.

My only concern is that if we beef force powers next TL, we are going to find the galaxy getting pwned by jedi and sith for the whole TL. But, maybe I'm wrong. I'm not perfect, or omniscient by any means.
 

Green Ranger

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In the words of Yuan, I, personally, am rather turned off by all of the above. I have seen sits where death is regulated like this, and it was super detrimental to the site. On that site you literally needed permission from the writer to do anything to their character, and it was boring af. While your suggestion isn’t as extreme, putting limits on PvP isn’t the answer. You started off by talking about there being rules and structure now that didn’t exist before and suggest more rules and structure which we don’t need.

If a character is dying then it is because the writer knowingly entered a fight, aware of the risks involved. The percentages of fights that end in death was a reflection of PvP culture, which is already changing. I have seen more defeats end in maiming and capture than death in the last four or five months than ever before. It’s nowhere like the old days when people got surprise ganked in threads they didn’t expect pvp in, PvP is it’s own entity which you only enter at your own risk.

As for adding dice into the result, I would not want luck to play any sort of role in how my character ends up. If I lose then it should be a discussion between the participants to find a comfortable ending for both and one that drives the story forward.

Hey, if both players can come to an agreement, then that's great! I think that that should absolutely take precedence. I didn't make it clear - again, 2AM, rambling, etc. etc.) but I think that if the players can come to a decision about the fate of their characters, then that should absolutely be honored, in the same way that I think that if the players agree to stipulations before the match begins, then they should too be honored - so if you want to go into a thread knowing that you're at the complete mercy of your enemy if you lose, then....sure, there's nothing preventing you from having an agreement with the other participants beforehand.

I think that kind of planning and communication between all parties involved in great - when it works. My idea would only kick in when it doesn't.
 

Wit

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You are incorrect sir. I want to do a mock battle so that I can illustrate MY points in a way that you can plainly see. But, that's fine. I will wash my hands of this and take a big step back because I have apparently already misstepped and pissed some people off for something that is actually completely unrelated to this discussion.

My only concern is that if we beef force powers next TL, we are going to find the galaxy getting pwned by jedi and sith for the whole TL. But, maybe I'm wrong. I'm not perfect, or omniscient by any means.
I understand, but I believe all of your points are false and inaccurate. So thanks but no thanks, kind sir.
 

Wit

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Hey, if both players can come to an agreement, then that's great! I think that that should absolutely take precedence. I didn't make it clear - again, 2AM, rambling, etc. etc.) but I think that if the players can come to a decision about the fate of their characters, then that should absolutely be honored, in the same way that I think that if the players agree to stipulations before the match begins, then they should too be honored - so if you want to go into a thread knowing that you're at the complete mercy of your enemy if you lose, then....sure, there's nothing preventing you from having an agreement with the other participants beforehand.

I think that kind of planning and communication between all parties involved in great - when it works. My idea would only kick in when it doesn't.
There actual has been a marked increase in this sort of mind set, a lot of threads nowadays end with some mutually acceptable outcome. I think there was a cultural shift that needed to take place where we move away from always going for the kill and it’s slowly but surely happened. Not saying dice isn’t a good option, after a point maybe it is the easiest way to end a thread but from a personal point of view I find ending PvPs on the roll of a dice might be a bit inorganic.
 

Gamov

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I'd like to take a moment to call back to an earlier point/concern I raised in this thread. Specifically that regarding site culture.

To be point blank, there is a rudeness factor that underpins this site that, speaking from a personal point of view, has been a growing deterrent to my interest here. I need not seek out past evidence or examples (though I easily can if such are required/requested), but this has been a pervasive issue, both off-site and on, and in one page of conversation in this thread alone, we literally see a site owner (of all people) and a moderator proclaim that they "don't give a crap about what gripes" someone has, and that if someone hasn't been active then their opinion has "no merit".

How are either of those sentiments being constructive? They're being dismissive. There's no other interpretation you can glean from comments such as those. They contributed nothing to the conversation but to "smack down" a member for voicing an opinion.

If the site is going to change or improve in any meaningful way, the first step is to learn basic respect for the opinions of others, and be less prone to flying off the handle at perceived slights.

Now before anyone can pull my own behavior out of the dust bin to use against me, yes I have been snarky and bitchy myself in the past. But it was about the time I received my first actual reprimand (somewhere near the end of the last TL when I was prohibited from participating in battles/PvP due to my behavior) that I understood I was taking things here far too seriously. If I could be so easily goaded and whipped into a rage by something as silly as RP... I was doing it wrong.

Roleplaying is a hobby. Hobbies should be entertaining, something you do to unwind and relax. Not something that breeds frustration and brings out the worst in you. Discuss things that need to be changed, that's fine. But the key word is 'discuss', not verbally curb stomp others and outright dismiss their opinions with the most vitriol you can muster without physically vomiting acid on your keyboard as you type your response.
 
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