PvP: A Shift in the META

[Phoenix]

PVP: A Shift in the META​

Welcome back to another installment of PvP: You Didn't Know this was a Series. This has been an announcement the staff has been contemplating and discussing for some time, but over the last few months there has been a major shift in the way that PvP is handled, and it has become not only un-Star Wars, but harmful to PvP in general. Some of you who have received rulings from me recently may have already experienced the first wave of this, and for the sake of transparency and clarification, this is a lengthy announcement about how things have changed. These are themes seen among every level of member on this site from veterans to newbies (and myself included), so it's a good reminder for everyone. As a clarifier: this is not changing the rules. Just a shift back toward enforcing what the rules always should have been.

Your HEMA training... doesn't mean much​

The title implies what this is talking about, but I'm going to unbox it a bit. At the end of the day, fights in Star Wars are not real life fights. While some of the moves might be inspired by real things, there has been a mindset of hyper-realism that has set in to rob PvP of its Star Wars nature. This is going to end.

So what does that mean? The most obvious repercussion of this is that if you're relying on split second timing or hundredths of a second for your attack to work, it probably won't. The time of landing your own strike while your opponent is swinging and hitting him 0.15 seconds before he hits you is over. People in Star Wars do full swings of their lightsabers, not the small movements often seen in HEMA. Just because it works in your HEMA doesn't mean it carries over into a galaxy far, far away.

Your character's not that good...​

On the one hand, the split second timing and hyper-realism doesn't not seem to have carried over into the precision of combat. Just because you write that your hit will land when it is absolutely most advantageous to you, doesn't mean that that will actually happen. In combat, fine motor skills aren't nearly so fine and just because it can be done on the gun range doesn't mean it will always be so flawlessly executed with your adrenaline pumping. Just because you say your attack will land the instant your opponent's misses so they have 0 seconds to react... doesn't mean you have that level of precision.

So you think you can ignore all the incoming fire at you, turn, and land a headshot at 40 meters? Are you a level 3 gunslinger? 4? No? Your character's not that good...

You think you can use the Force to blast your enemy back while falling backwards and blocking a lightsaber strike before flawlessly rolling back to your feet? Your character's not that good...

You want to block a Force blast at point blank range after you were just wholeheartedly choking your enemy, deflecting their gunshots, and leaping backwards onto a table? Your character's not that good...

I'm sure that you all get what I'm saying by this point, but the number of actions that are performed every second and the precision with which it's done (often to within tenths of a second) is just not viable in the middle of combat. Take it easy. Your character's not that good...

But I'm cheeky... right?​

Sorry... not so much. Perhaps more problematic than anything else, the lack of actual dueling and the rise of "cheap" and "dirty" tricks has sapped PvP of any resemblance to Star Wars. I know I'm personally guilty of this as well, but I can only imagine there's a reason we never see the incredible finesse moves that have become so prevalent in PvP that are designed to be an "insta-win."

This will bring an end to the days of activating a saber/grenade/blaster on the belt or heating up/pulling on/deactivating a saber in someone's hand or twisting their helmet around their head. No more pulling on their ear with the Force to rip it off their head to try to get an instant incapacitation or knock the saber out of their hand in the 0.15 seconds that it leaps from their belt to their hand. There's a reason that these things are only even attempted by level 4 characters in canon... get there and then maybe we'll talk. The days of the one-shot finisher have come to a close (to the sound of thunderous applause?).

It's Just a Flesh Wound!​

This is something that seems to have been forgotten, but is worth repeating: not all wounds are lethal. I've noticed that the concept of a grazing wound, flesh wound, or non-debilitating injury seems to have faded out of existence in PvP. We all should be taking damage in our fights, and we also shouldn't be pushing for every injury we land to end the fight. We seem to have collectively lost that concept in part because of the move towards hyper-realism where every move has to dismember, and even a second's stumble will end the fight. A one second stumble isn't enough time for your enemy to completely capitalize on you. A slight advantage, but if they want to use it to end the fight... well, they're not that good.

Q&A​

Well that was fun, wasn't it? A little humor? Maybe not? Okay then, moving along. On a serious note, I think it's a good reminder for everyone (myself included) that this is Star Wars, not *fill in the blank other media.* With that being said, I'm going to try something here that I've never done before, and hopefully won't come to regret (don't make me regret it). I'm going to open this thread up to questions about how rulings are done. Some ground rules out of the gate: I'm not going to re-review a ruling for you, I'm not going to give you a pseudo-ruling, etc, but if there's some component of how PvP is done that you don't understand, this would be the place to ask it.

 

[Rimrald]

Does this then mean that the potential for combat with blasters outside of ~30 meters will be viable? With the intent of cutting back on the hyper tuned in gunslingers who can dodge blaster bolts or FS’s who can just side step bolts. We’ve seen the viability of longer ranges in the films so would you say, with this brief in mind that it will make more sense on the site now?

 

[Phoenix]

It could, but it depends on what ranges you're talking about. I will say this: casually sidestepping a blaster shot is not going to be a thing especially if you're wanting to return fire. It would be much more of either already being in cover or diving out of the way to avoid it, not casually take one step to the side and returning fire like it's no big deal

 

[LA]

Will film logic be used that differs from the real world in judgements? If so, what kind, and how will judges decide when it applies?

Will PvP rulings be used to try to unshift the meta from its hyper-competitiveness? If so, how?

(Hyper competitiveness meaning instant win moves, dirty tricks, and attacks that are all designed to kill or maim.)

 

[Phoenix]

Yes, it will be enforced in rulings. The list of moves in the announcement (though it isn't necessarily all-inclusive) will no longer be valid maneuvers, which will be reflected in the rulings.

 

[Ulysses]

I've often wondered whether the staff team have considered a presumption of survival rule - that is, in any grey areas, it's the character who is at immediate risk of death that gets the benefit of the doubt?

In a similar vein @Phoenix you mention that star wars characters "aren't that good" - however they do often survive improbable situations to fight another day; they just don't necessarily achieve their objective that time round.

I guess what I'm asking is - is the flip side to the clawing back of insta-death a bit of leeway to emerge from smoking rubble with bruised egos but otherwise ok in the long run? (Hence encouraging indulging in weaknesses rather than denying them at every turn for fear of immediate loss?)

 

[Phoenix]

I've often wondered whether the staff team have considered a presumption of survival rule - that is, in any grey areas, it's the character who is at immediate risk of death that gets the benefit of the doubt?

In a similar vein @Phoenix you mention that star wars characters "aren't that good" - however they do often survive improbable situations to fight another day; they just don't necessarily achieve their objective that time round.

I guess what I'm asking is - is the flip side to the clawing back of insta-death a bit of leeway to emerge from smoking rubble with bruised egos but otherwise ok in the long run? (Hence encouraging indulging in weaknesses rather than denying them at every turn for fear of immediate loss?)

That's what the "flesh wound" section is primarily about. Characters might take damage without being completely killed/mortally wounded/losing a limb, when in reality they likely would. There's some room for that. As for characters surviving and "emerging from the rubble" as you call it, that will depend in large part on the thread, who you're fighting, what they agree to, and the circumstances of the attack

 

[Lucid]

Do you feel that the reports system should be used more in coming days to make sure that the meta-shift is appreciated? @Phoenix

 

[Rimrald]

To piggy back off of Lucid’s question, in the coming weeks as people get more in tune with the shift in what’s acceptable; so long as the OOC remains respectful. Will reports be weighed against the gain of PvP credits (traditionally the thinking is report = no credits) or will it serve as an instruction tool per say?

 

[Sreeya]

Going to reports doesn't automatically mean no credits. Toxic behavior is what leads to it. There are plenty of respectful pvp oocs that go to reports.

 

[Phoenix]

Do you feel that the reports system should be used more in coming days to make sure that the meta-shift is appreciated? @Phoenix

If there’s a blatant violation then yes. As with all things in PvP it should start with discussion and if an agreement can’t be come to then there should be a report. Rulings will enforce what’s been posted above. I don’t think that a report should be used more necessarily, but this does slightly change the grounds for reporting.

 

[Lucid]

If there’s a blatant violation then yes. As with all things in PvP it should start with discussion and if an agreement can’t be come to then there should be a report. Rulings will enforce what’s been posted above. I don’t think that a report should be used more necessarily, but this does slightly change the grounds for reporting.

Completely understandable.

However my concern was that with many of the newer generation of players having grown up in the era of hyper-realism and no damage at any costs, that discussion could prove to be problematic since with the style of PVP the site is trying to shift back to many things are subjective. In no way am I suggesting overuse of the report function however until things are cemented in the new meta ruling or at least admin opinion would be very valuable to defining the new meta through practical application and precedent.

 

[Phoenix]

Completely understandable.

However my concern was that with many of the newer generation of players having grown up in the era of hyper-realism and no damage at any costs, that discussion could prove to be problematic since with the style of PVP the site is trying to shift back to many things are subjective. In no way am I suggesting overuse of the report function however until things are cemented in the new meta ruling or at least admin opinion would be very valuable to defining the new meta through practical application and precedent.

It could end up being an issue, but really only time will tell. Hopefully people can read this announcement and apply it logically as they would with any other rule, but there will always be those who don’t