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Tsunami

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Just so you are aware - How are you accurately throwing a grenade 25m into a doorway (you cant see). Its just not logical Please grab a weighty ball, close your eyes and throw it 25m into the place you want it. Aside from 25m being a hell off a throw with a grenade its just not realistic - please turn off this aim bot you seem to have on @Nefieslab The shooting is fine but if you also think that you are accurately firing into the doorway from smoke. Again, you are wrong. Finally, if you were going for the hattrick, the frag grenade is set on a manual det so I've not set it off as of yet.

Ediwa - Love your plan dude its bad ass. Just so you are aware, though - My character talked about us moving to the sides of the room so while the knock out gas might be of use it's un-likely that you'd be getting a clear LOS on us with your rifle. Equally, I'm assuming that you used two of the gas canisters because the room is larger than the effective radius of the canister?
 

Nefieslab

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Just so you are aware - How are you accurately throwing a grenade 25m into a doorway (you cant see). Its just not logical Please grab a weighty ball, close your eyes and throw it 25m into the place you want it. Aside from 25m being a hell off a throw with a grenade its just not realistic - please turn off this aim bot you seem to have on @Nefieslab The shooting is fine but if you also think that you are accurately firing into the doorway from smoke. Again, you are wrong. Finally, if you were going for the hattrick, the frag grenade is set on a manual det so I've not set it off as of yet.

It's not aim bot dude - just because there's now smoke doesn't mean that the hallway isnt still the exact same hallway he just shot down, he still knows the direction of the doorway and the walls of the hall will channel it in the right direction - it's like bowling with the bumpers up on the lane

As for the distance of the throw- why not?

30m is the maximum I can find that good recruits can accurately throw a grenade under ideal conditions (I.e not being shot at and not needing to worry about staying in cover) - I cut that by 5m due to wearing medium armour but didn't cut it anymore because a level 1 is said to be better than a recruit, Tomic isnt under fire and is out if cover for the throw

Even if you've only got one of two double doors open that's still roughly 2m area to land in (based on the hallway being 4m wide) so that means its not exactly like dropping it accurately within an inch as you seem to be suggesting - its throwing a grenade down a known area, with bumpers to help guide it, to land within an area not unlike that of a 6 foot tall man laying down

Smoke doesn't erase memories of a very forgiving terrain my friend
 

Nefieslab

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Oh and the shots arent meant to be accurate as in hitting a hand or a head - they're meant to be suppressing fire sorry if that wasnt clear
 

Tsunami

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It's not aim bot dude - just because there's now smoke doesn't mean that the hallway isnt still the exact same hallway he just shot down, he still knows the direction of the doorway and the walls of the hall will channel it in the right direction - it's like bowling with the bumpers up on the lane

As for the distance of the throw- why not?

30m is the maximum I can find that good recruits can accurately throw a grenade under ideal conditions (I.e not being shot at and not needing to worry about staying in cover) - I cut that by 5m due to wearing medium armour but didn't cut it anymore because a level 1 is said to be better than a recruit, Tomic isnt under fire and is out if cover for the throw

Even if you've only got one of two double doors open that's still roughly 2m area to land in (based on the hallway being 4m wide) so that means its not exactly like dropping it accurately within an inch as you seem to be suggesting - its throwing a grenade down a known area, with bumpers to help guide it, to land within an area not unlike that of a 6 foot tall man laying down

Smoke doesn't erase memories of a very forgiving terrain my friend

It doesn't erase memories. However you are still required to AIM a grenade at where you are throwing. Here Look at not only the fact they are HOOFING these grenades, but the fact that they are 1) Aiming them UPWARDS for distance, and 2) Not many of these things are getting even close to 25m, the one that does is not cause to believe that they can all be thrown that far, all the time, by any tom, dick and harry.

The further you throw a grenade, the less accurate it is. Your throwing, blind, into a doorway, In a hallways that limits height, at the maximum range that is possible (you've found) perfectly landing in the spot you picked. No.

As for your shots how much is the delay between these bursts?
 

Ediwa

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Just so you are aware - How are you accurately throwing a grenade 25m into a doorway (you cant see). Its just not logical Please grab a weighty ball, close your eyes and throw it 25m into the place you want it. Aside from 25m being a hell off a throw with a grenade its just not realistic - please turn off this aim bot you seem to have on @Nefieslab The shooting is fine but if you also think that you are accurately firing into the doorway from smoke. Again, you are wrong. Finally, if you were going for the hattrick, the frag grenade is set on a manual det so I've not set it off as of yet.

Ediwa - Love your plan dude its bad ass. Just so you are aware, though - My character talked about us moving to the sides of the room so while the knock out gas might be of use it's un-likely that you'd be getting a clear LOS on us with your rifle. Equally, I'm assuming that you used two of the gas canisters because the room is larger than the effective radius of the canister?

The time is shared. When the smoke was thrown the gas was deployed. A big hole on the roof could get line of sight in my opinion, since it's high up, what was it, five meters?

I'm not sure the gas's range would double, but obviously they won't drop exactly to the same place.
 

Nefieslab

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It doesn't erase memories. However you are still required to AIM a grenade at where you are throwing. Here Look at not only the fact they are HOOFING these grenades, but the fact that they are 1) Aiming them UPWARDS for distance, and 2) Not many of these things are getting even close to 25m, the one that does is not cause to believe that they can all be thrown that far, all the time, by any tom, dick and harry.

The further you throw a grenade, the less accurate it is. Your throwing, blind, into a doorway, In a hallways that limits height, at the maximum range that is possible (you've found) perfectly landing in the spot you picked. No.

As for your shots how much is the delay between these bursts?

And again, this ain't an unreasonable amount of precision considering the factors I gave above - none of which you've defeated in an argument to my satisfaction, you've just said "you can't" essentially and linked something

It's not blind- it takes time for smoke to emerge, the hallway remains exactly the same and smoke doesn't erase memories or cover the entire hallway.

It's not impossible to make the distance- you can throw a grenade accurately up to 30m, I'm throwing 25m - showing me someone NOT throwing it that far doesn't mean it's impossible - by that logic showing someone stalling a car would mean no one can drive a car properly

The landing zone - isnt small. The landing zone is not measured in inches or around a corner or up a flight of stairs, it is down a known hallway and is measured in feet enough that its width is literally larger than my height - please stop trying to suggest a straight line is hard.

As for the bursts? Check the tech write up for my gun (I'm out at the minute) but it's a 2 round burst weapon like my rifle. Usually this means two bolts are shot at essentially the same time from each trigger pull - it's a little bit fuzzy how soon after since the ruling from @GABAdactyl
 

Tsunami

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And again, this ain't an unreasonable amount of precision considering the factors I gave above - none of which you've defeated in an argument to my satisfaction, you've just said "you can't" essentially and linked something

It's not blind- it takes time for smoke to emerge, the hallway remains exactly the same and smoke doesn't erase memories or cover the entire hallway.

It's not impossible to make the distance- you can throw a grenade accurately up to 30m, I'm throwing 25m - showing me someone NOT throwing it that far doesn't mean it's impossible - by that logic showing someone stalling a car would mean no one can drive a car properly. @GABAdactyl

You are going off the same factual evidence (Yours has not been supported btw. You've just said "I can find") I have provided. There is video proof of a number of SOLDIERS who are in near perfect conditions, being unable to throw a grenade the distance that you are proposing you can throw so accurately. The by your logic, the fact that something can be done everyone can do it... So I assume that means me and Crystal can Usain Bolt our way out the hallway with the diplomats. Other than the fact it is insulting that you are talking to someone serving, telling you what your doing isn't how things work and despite the fact that I have provided you with evidence where as you have provided me with nothing but "I say so".

I don't have to defeat you argument to you satisfaction. Your argument is based on reading some people can throw a grenade 30m, some people can also run 100m in sub 10 seconds - Here I am telling you Unequivocally that while sure it does happen, its happening in near perfect conditions and not in the ones we are faced with currently. What you suggesting is not the norm.

I don't need to check the tech write up. I'm asking you how long between YOUR bursts are there. You fired two bursts of two rounds - How long is there between the first and second, so I can grasp time passing throughout your post.

As for you stating the smoke doesn't cover the entire hallway - "over the entire hallway."

I stated ;

Smoke filled the hall, it's green colour pushing outwards and upwards making sure that it would obstruct the vision of there enemy for a while.

Filled.



I'm so tired of arguing with you in this OOC. You have constantly simply stated that your shots are dead eye accurate and your ability to make things happen are superhero in nature. Something that we are not the only ones to notice.

I'm not reporting the thread again and bothering admins, it is embarrassing. If you wish to be fair, then you'll taper back the distance of your nade to be logical, then I will refuse to partake in this OOC discussion any longer, and you can do what is seemingly common of your threads and OOC discussions which is be such a snowflake and make PvP so miserable, that people just don't bother.

@Ediwa - Makes sense with the gas, was just checking buddy, cheers! I'm unsure of height vs width dimentions as @Algarus set them but I'm sure she can shed light on what she thought was possible visibility wise when she is about! :) I'll defer to that decision, but i'm cool with whatever.
 

Nefieslab

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You are going off the same factual evidence (Yours has not been supported btw. You've just said "I can find") I have provided. There is video proof of a number of SOLDIERS who are in near perfect conditions, being unable to throw a grenade the distance that you are proposing you can throw so accurately. The by your logic, the fact that something can be done everyone can do it... So I assume that means me and Crystal can Usain Bolt our way out the hallway with the diplomats. Other than the fact it is insulting that you are talking to someone serving, telling you what your doing isn't how things work and despite the fact that I have provided you with evidence where as you have provided me with nothing but "I say so".

I don't have to defeat you argument to you satisfaction. Your argument is based on reading some people can throw a grenade 30m, some people can also run 100m in sub 10 seconds - Here I am telling you Unequivocally that while sure it does happen, its happening in near perfect conditions and not in the ones we are faced with currently. What you suggesting is not the norm.

I don't need to check the tech write up. I'm asking you how long between YOUR bursts are there. You fired two bursts of two rounds - How long is there between the first and second, so I can grasp time passing throughout your post.

As for you stating the smoke doesn't cover the entire hallway - "over the entire hallway."

I stated ;



Filled.



I'm so tired of arguing with you in this OOC. You have constantly simply stated that your shots are dead eye accurate and your ability to make things happen are superhero in nature. Something that we are not the only ones to notice.

I'm not reporting the thread again and bothering admins, it is embarrassing. If you wish to be fair, then you'll taper back the distance of your nade to be logical, then I will refuse to partake in this OOC discussion any longer, and you can do what is seemingly common of your threads and OOC discussions which is be such a snowflake and make PvP so miserable, that people just don't bother.

@Ediwa - Makes sense with the gas, was just checking buddy, cheers! I'm unsure of height vs width dimentions as @Algarus set them but I'm sure she can shed light on what she thought was possible visibility wise when she is about! :) I'll defer to that decision, but i'm cool with whatever.

Right so its Remembrance Sunday here right now and I am still out after the service.

I will debate you further with evidence and citations when i am home - I trust that we can do that without further name calling?
 

Algarus

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@Tsunami Can you dial it down a bit? That was not nessicary. Come on man, let'sjuat talk it out. We aren't actually trying to kill each other rn. :/
 

Tsunami

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Right so its Remembrance Sunday here right now and I am still out after the service.

I will debate you further with evidence and citations when i am home - I trust that we can do that without further name calling?

I mean there is no discussion to be had - I've stated I don't agree with what you are doing, you've stated you agree with what you are doing. For that reason there is very little we can do without a report, of which once again I don't feel is warranted. If you wish to dial it down to something more logical, then great. If you do not, then that is your choice and that's fine too.

A debate vs what one person knows vs what one person has read and that doesn't make for an easy time. One is based off experience while the other is based off of TAM's and other aide memoires out there.

As long as @Algarus is happy with the roof situation being cool with the way she set out the room, then I will be good post.
 

Nefieslab

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I mean there is no discussion to be had - I've stated I don't agree with what you are doing, you've stated you agree with what you are doing. For that reason there is very little we can do without a report, of which once again I don't feel is warranted. If you wish to dial it down to something more logical, then great. If you do not, then that is your choice and that's fine too.

A debate vs what one person knows vs what one person has read and that doesn't make for an easy time. One is based off experience while the other is based off of TAM's and other aide memoires out there.

As long as @Algarus is happy with the roof situation being cool with the way she set out the room, then I will be good post.

Apologies for the curtness of previous replies - I'm at home now so free to type

So what I'm hearing is that you have decided that I am wrong, based on your experiences, which I cannot (and will not) judge or question. However, you will not be raising a report to dispute my post and will not engage in a debate now that I have access to my computer again

That about the gist of it?
 

Tsunami

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No I don't think we need to report anything... I'll leave it up to you. It is your post, I have argued my side, you have argued your side and both have there basis. Regardless of the heatedness of the convo there is no hard feelings with whichever you decide to do, and the punches will get rolled as they come.

I don't think the debate is healthy, it's inked outwardly and become toxic which isn't what I'm here to do or who I am - There are certain things that I am passionate about and have experienced which coupled with sheer stubbornness and a nature that fights when they are backed into a corner doesn't make me the easiest once I've engaged in such talks! So apologies on my end.

As said, happy with whatever you choose to do as long as we all happy with the roof situation we can post up and finish this thing by gloriously choking in this room we have so gloriously made our coffin.
 

Nefieslab

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No I don't think we need to report anything... I'll leave it up to you. It is your post, I have argued my side, you have argued your side and both have there basis. Regardless of the heatedness of the convo there is no hard feelings with whichever you decide to do, and the punches will get rolled as they come.

I don't think the debate is healthy, it's inked outwardly and become toxic which isn't what I'm here to do or who I am - There are certain things that I am passionate about and have experienced which coupled with sheer stubbornness and a nature that fights when they are backed into a corner doesn't make me the easiest once I've engaged in such talks! So apologies on my end.

As said, happy with whatever you choose to do as long as we all happy with the roof situation we can post up and finish this thing by gloriously choking in this room we have so gloriously made our coffin.

I'm fine with the roof stuff first of all - @Ediwa did hella fine with that plan

But yeah I'm not going to edit my post because I feel like I've looked over enough information to feel that its reasonable - you dont and that's fine, it's your decision if you want to report or not

If not then unless @Ediwa or @Algarus have issues then we can put it behind us
 

Algarus

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@Ediwa So reading the posts, I just want to ask some questions. From how I'm reading this, Jay blew up his charge right where he is standing, and is just pointing his barrel down into the hole, after throwing a smoke grenade down. I just want to point out some issues with this. First, Jay would need to either be at the point of the explosion, or move away. After that, there is a shit load of dust that is going to be going around blocking sight, so if he wants to toss that grenade, he can do that, but I'm going to say him being able to just shove his barrel through a 2 meter hole and the floor and aim bot two people is a little hard to believe. I just need a little clarify, given you never mention him moving at all from the position.

@Nefieslab Also, I'm a little at a loss for how you're ignoring a grenade going off despite running right into it. If you've already discussed this with Tsunami then I'd just need to know, given it's on a remote detonator, so it hasn't exploded as he was waiting for you to rush us. Other than that, I'll start working on my reply.

Lastly, I hope we don't have to have another argument like the one we have witnessed here, and we can keep on moving. :)
 

Ediwa

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@Ediwa So reading the posts, I just want to ask some questions. From how I'm reading this, Jay blew up his charge right where he is standing, and is just pointing his barrel down into the hole, after throwing a smoke grenade down. I just want to point out some issues with this. First, Jay would need to either be at the point of the explosion, or move away. After that, there is a shit load of dust that is going to be going around blocking sight, so if he wants to toss that grenade, he can do that, but I'm going to say him being able to just shove his barrel through a 2 meter hole and the floor and aim bot two people is a little hard to believe. I just need a little clarify, given you never mention him moving at all from the position.

@Nefieslab Also, I'm a little at a loss for how you're ignoring a grenade going off despite running right into it. If you've already discussed this with Tsunami then I'd just need to know, given it's on a remote detonator, so it hasn't exploded as he was waiting for you to rush us. Other than that, I'll start working on my reply.

Lastly, I hope we don't have to have another argument like the one we have witnessed here, and we can keep on moving. :)

Of course he wouldn't sit on the charge to suicide. Remember they are not simple smoke grenades. If the building is of a material that would leave a lot of smoke then write that into your post. :P
 

Nefieslab

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@Nefieslab Also, I'm a little at a loss for how you're ignoring a grenade going off despite running right into it. If you've already discussed this with Tsunami then I'd just need to know, given it's on a remote detonator, so it hasn't exploded as he was waiting for you to rush us. Other than that, I'll start working on my reply.

Because I haven't run at it - its several meters away from me
 

Algarus

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Because I haven't run at it - its several meters away from me
Sorry, I forgot to fix that. I meant to say that the grenade never went off because you didn't move towards it, so it wouldn't have gone off to begin with if I am correct.
 

Nefieslab

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Sorry, I forgot to fix that. I meant to say that the grenade never went off because you didn't move towards it, so it wouldn't have gone off to begin with if I am correct.

You are absolutely right I missed that it was a remote detonated one - edit made
 

Algarus

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You are absolutely right I missed that it was a remote detonated one - edit made
Thanks <3


Edit: I had a lengthy discussion with Tsunami. For now on, I'm going to be intermediating for him, so if you have issues just tag me and I'll get back with you guys. Me and him are actively chatting regularly, so updates should be swift.
 
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