The Force Awakens - Thoughts and Reactions (SPOILERS WITHIN)

Flamjetxx

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I'm just saying that you don't see people today picking up a katana and swinging it around without hurting themselves, and then beating a, albeit wounded, samurai with it. I just don't see it being reasonable.

*And I realize there is a fine line right now regarding what is canon vs what can be used to argue a point (especially since all I've seen of Disney Canon are the movies and the Clone Wars tv show; limited imo). So obviously, I will default to the opinions of who knows canon better than I do. I'm jut kind of frustrated at how this is all been portrayed, because it seems like they are trying WAAAY too hard to do this whole underdog kind of thing that Luke did with Darth Vader, but even Luke trained with Yoda and Obi-Wan (eg. the strongest teachers of his era) when he beat Vader. I think they could have easily went about it FAR better than they did in the movie, and it is disappointing to me.
 

Logan

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I'm just saying that you don't see people today picking up a katana and swinging it around without hurting themselves, and then beating a, albeit wounded, samurai with it. I just don't see it being reasonable.

*And I realize there is a fine line right now regarding what is canon vs what can be used to argue a point (especially since all I've seen of Disney Canon are the movies and the Clone Wars tv show; limited imo). So obviously, I will default to the opinions of who knows canon better than I do. I'm jut kind of frustrated at how this is all been portrayed, because it seems like they are trying WAAAY too hard to do this whole underdog kind of thing that Luke did with Darth Vader, but even Luke trained with Yoda and Obi-Wan (eg. the strongest teachers of his era) when he beat Vader. I think they could have easily went about it FAR better than they did in the movie, and it is disappointing to me.
There's no real indication that Kylo is extensively trained. For all we know he's a child swinging a weapon around and uses intimidation to do most of his work.
 

Flamjetxx

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There's no real indication that Kylo is extensively trained. For all we know he's a child swinging a weapon around and uses intimidation to do most of his work.
Although the new boss (I can't remember his name) says to finish Kylo's training, which though it doesn't imply he is extensively trained, but it CAN be interpreted easier as that he has completed a better deal of his training since the boss figure says finish rather than continue. He also has the ability to freeze a blaster bolt in place and to completely stop an opponent from being able to move, which I imagine to be a far more complex ability than a beginner would be capable of. And although that also doesn't relate to his skill with a lightsaber, it is highly doubtful. All speculation aside, he was able to slaughter his entire class of Jedi (while trained by Luke), which implies that he was capable enough to beat his equals, and since it was literally Rey's first time wielding a lightsaber, he can't possible be on the same level playing field as far as skill goes.

Just some opinions though.
 

Ser Gregor

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Slaughter=/=fight his class in a straight duel. He likely butchered them when they were vulnerable.

Also, Kylo doesn't even know how to properly make a lightsaber. He's shown to be proficient in the force, it's never shown he is all that capable in a duel. In fact the movie gives the distinct impression that he's an immature and unrefined person.
 

Brandon Rhea

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but even Luke trained with Yoda and Obi-Wan
Neither of whom were shown giving Luke any sort of lightsaber training. It was all about the Force. Even when Luke did use his lightsaber during that one training session with Obi-Wan, it was about using the Force rather than using a weapon. He learned how to use a lightsaber by using a lightsaber in combat with real opponents. And Rey is already WAY more skilled with melee combat than Luke was in the beginning - she was shown kicking those two dudes asses with her quarterstaff when they tried to take BB-8. It's clear she has skills, honed over a lifetime of hardship on Jakku.

Also, Rey was on the defensive almost the entire fight with Kylo. He was the one controlling it for the most part. It wasn't until Rey embraced the Force that she was able to fight back, and that's the whole point of being a Jedi. Finding that power within and using it to defend yourself and others is the whole point of Star Wars, for that matter.

Lightsaber duels are about the emotional context that they take place in. The actual sword fights are cool, but they're really not important to the movie. So ultimately, who cares?
 

Andrewza

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all so i assume all stormtroopers get training in close quarter combat. I all ways felt that this notion only a Jedi can swing a glow stick to be just stupid. Not like Fin or Rey defected a blaster bolt
 

Green Ranger

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all so i assume all stormtroopers get training in close quarter combat. I all ways felt that this notion only a Jedi can swing a glow stick to be just stupid. Not like Fin or Rey defected a blaster bolt

I absolutely loathed the EU explanations around it as well, where it was all 'oh the saber behaves weirdly so you need to be able to use the Force or it's just too hard,' or perhaps the even worse notion that some titles endorsed that suggested that a lightsaber needed to be powered by the Force to a certain extent to even work.

I just prefer the explanation that in a galaxy of blasters, running around with a sword is just stupidly impractical for most people.
 

Marcus

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Although the saber would be different, with no weight to the blade basically and then any slight touch of ANY edge could burn or maim yourself.

That said, I agree that general use should not be restricted to the prequel-like training regiment.
 

Cainhurst Crow

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I absolutely loathed the EU explanations around it as well, where it was all 'oh the saber behaves weirdly so you need to be able to use the Force or it's just too hard,' or perhaps the even worse notion that some titles endorsed that suggested that a lightsaber needed to be powered by the Force to a certain extent to even work.

I just prefer the explanation that in a galaxy of blasters, running around with a sword is just stupidly impractical for most people.
Well, yeah. Unless you can deflect blaster bolts, there's 0 reason to use a saber vs a blaster. Especially blasters that can shoot put a massive ring that knocks people out near instantly. :P

I'm just saying that you don't see people today picking up a katana and swinging it around without hurting themselves...

Yeah, you actually do. Go on YouTube and you'll see a ton of them. Honestly it's not that hard to swing around a sword, and it's probably easier to use a saber then a sword cause you can swing it like a bat and still cut stuff. It's not common anywhere nor any age that just picking up a sword gets you killed or maimed, as the expanded universe would try and make you believe.

Whether you can beat an experienced swordsman however is unlikely, nor any martial artist. Finn even loses to a storm trooper who was better at close quarters combat while wielding a saber which shows that.

But a man whose been shot in the gut isn't going to be able to put up a good fight. And given he did as well as he did as well as taking a saber slash before fighting rey, he did as good as he could. Even obi wan was down after just 2 stabs of a saber, and he's probably a way better duelist then kylo.
 
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Brandon Rhea

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The idea that the lightsaber are weightless was a product of Episode I, and the films have moved away from that. During the original trilogy, George Lucas explicitly told the actors that lightsabers are meant to be heavy. During the prequels, he did a total 180 and said that they're light/weightless. J.J. Abrams went back to lightsabers having weight and being heavy. So the notion that you need to be trained with a lightsaber because they are a weightless has, thankfully, gone out the window.
 

Noire

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I actually think that would have made for a better movie. To add to this, I think that "Starkiller Base" should have been mentioned as being worked on. Then it should have been first revealed and tested in VIII, but it would not yet be operational. It would be worked on and then used in IX to attack the Republic, which would have been well enough established by then for the attack to be upsetting for those watching the movie.

I'm still iffy on having the Base even be a thing in the first place, but I agree that that would be a better set up as the narrative could then have the opportunity to establish worlds that the audience cares about.
 

VVVVVV

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Slaughter=/=fight his class in a straight duel. He likely butchered them when they were vulnerable.

Also, Kylo doesn't even know how to properly make a lightsaber. He's shown to be proficient in the force, it's never shown he is all that capable in a duel. In fact the movie gives the distinct impression that he's an immature and unrefined person.
Yep, good points. Also it seems pretty clear that the Knights of Ren were with him for the slaughter. It's very possible that he had never been in a straight duel before Finn and Rey fight him on Starkiller Base.
 

Shoggoth

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Alright, these are my thoughts. Only read if you want a more negative opinion before going in.

Before I start to dig into Episode VII, I just want to say that overall I think it was a better movie than the prequels, and that the trilogy overall has the potential to be very entertaining and even to redeem Star Wars, perhaps. I went in with pretty much no expectations, having only seen the original trailers when the movie was announced, and only mildly outraged that they were going to disregard the work of dozens of authors who contributed to the expanded universe so they could suck a little (a lot) more cash out of the cow.

However, I felt like we were thrown into a conflict that was literally the exact same as the one in A New Hope. Even the opening crawl made me feel that way. In fact the whole movie felt derivative. Rey is literally Anakin from Ep 1, down to (practically) being a slave to an alien merchant on a desert backwater. The only kind of character development we see for Finn is that he has a problem carrying out his orders... He felt like the token Disney character, because there was nothing realistic about the story arc he's had whatsoever. I know that they teased a little with Rey's past but I really felt like they underdeveloped the protagonists.

In my opinion, the whole thing about Poe's death was really lazily executed... The tie fighter they were in sank into the sand and exploded, Finn looked around to see where he was and couldn't find him, and then he miraculously reappeared in a fighter halfway through a battle on another planet.

The new Death Star seemed like a really arbitrary plot device that didn't even have the dramatic build up of the old one. It felt like JJ Abrams needed an excuse for the current threat of the Imperials and just shoehorned in a bigger, badder Death Star for the sake of having one... I mean, the Republic and a whole system of planets got blown up in a five minute seen and only received a few references about the evil power of the First Order in the rest of the film.

I'm starting to feel bad focusing on all the movie's negative aspects, but I feel like my biggest complaint is that JJ Abrams barely made a Star Wars movie here. If we didn't have the few familiar concepts he left, the old characters and the Jedi and the Force that makes Star Wars what it is, it felt like JJ Abrams made up a new universe for his movie. Scanning the backgrounds I found maybe two or three aliens from the series in the whole thing (a Sullustan and what I thought might be a Gran in one of the cantinas), and considering the hundreds and hundreds of worlds and creatures that he could have chosen from to make the whole thing feel a little more authentic to the fans, he just ignored everything that existed previously to turn out some pretty shoddily designed aliens for the background sets.

But anyway, I really liked the effects, the aliens Han captured for those two rival groups (no idea why there wasn't even an attempt to throw an alien in the crowd there), the one at the watering hole on Jakku, the character design, and I thought Kylo Ren and the other general of the First Order along with the Supreme Leader all have the potential to be very interesting... As does the trilogy, if it stops being so derivative. I'd like to see some more references to the Galaxy I know and love but I'm not expecting many.

@Caine Yeah, I was pretty disappointed. I think the other movies could be better but maybe I am just keeping my hope alive.

I very much agree. Though I think you gave the pre-sequels a bad name here may it be in blind Jar-Jar hate or just personal dislikes it doth not matter. My point is: The force awakens, felt so incredibly rushed, everything happened so fast, there was little to no character development and alot of things that could have been done so much better story-wise if it weren't for the constant action. It was like we never had time to breathe during the movie. at least in the pre-sequels you have the ongoing lie about palpatine being a nice and kind senator, proving at the end to be Darth Sidious, you also had the clone army that was being built under the senate's nose by the order of Darth tyrannus. Yes even in the pre-sequels you had more meat on the bone so to speak. More creative solutions. In the force awakens you kind of already know the outcome and the story. I guess the constant action and the lack of dialogue in all honesty is due to our present day society being built on constant entertainment, making JJ Abrams fear that people will get bored and that he wont make enough money. Its not only Star wars that has now suffered because of that, but i digress. Other than the serious lack of story and character development.. I loved the vibe of the movie, and alot of the scenes were damn right spectacular and goosebump-inducing. But it was pretty much what i feared it was going to be. I just hope they set things straight in the up-coming two.

.....And btw, Kylo Ren feeling "seduced by the light side" ?

wat.
 

Flamjetxx

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Well, i am really hoping that there is more Solid details as extent of training/reasoning behind one duelist being the victor over the other, because for some inexplicable reason it just bothers me the implication that the underdog wins just because they are the good guy/their decision to make Rey win their first duel against Kylo (which I feel is the pure attempt to mimic the OT to completion). I mean, these movies are giving wuite a few mixed signals imo, lol.

I am just afraid that they pulled out all the stops on this first movie, allowing the villain to be defeated, utilizing All of nostalgia, introducing and subsequently defeating the newest weapon that inexplicably came into existance, killing off Han Solo, and revealing Luke all in the same movie... What do they have left for the next movies? I am afraid the sequals are going to kind of suck... I mean, I feel no desire to have Kylo rematch Rey, because when she knew nothing of the Force, she was able to defeat him regardless of his limitations. This movie didn't really seem to set up for the sequals, because they accomplished everything that was established tha needed to be done in the first place.

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On a separate topic, I am really excited about the RP aspect of the content they released, because of what they revealed about the Force and what not. Ex: The new Force ability that was shown at the openning scene, where Kylo stops a bolt of energy in mid fire, and then allows it to procede long after it was too late to do anything.

How is this force power going to be portrayed in RP? It seems rediculously OP imo. It is almost unfair though, because I was hoping that the lack of Force abilities available to the new Timeline will put Force Users on a closer playingfeild to the rest of the Galaxy, and try to help RPers try to RP their Jedi/Sith less like a God and more like a gifted normal human being, like the movies try to make it seem.
 

Shoggoth

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Well, i am really hoping that there is more Solid details as extent of training/reasoning behind one duelist being the victor over the other, because for some inexplicable reason it just bothers me the implication that the underdog wins just because they are the good guy/their decision to make Rey win their first duel against Kylo.

Very true.
What do they have left for the next movies?

The wierd Yoda esque yellow-goggle-lady mentioned something about luke training a "new set of jedi" for like a fraction of a second, before they quickly moved back to some shooting scenes.
 

Jake

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@Shoggoth
I dig your name. My writing is so hopelessly littered with references to the Cthulhu mythos that it's untenable. As for the prequels, my big problem is in the setting and internal incoherencies. I was young when they came out but they still entertain me endlessly.

@Flamejetxx I dont think the new timeline will take out all the EU powers, though I could be wrong. What I do hope is that it will deal more with the mystical aspect of the Force and move away from the video game flavor it has kind of acquired.

@Green Ranger The only explanation that I like for that is that Jedi can use lightsabers practically because their precognitive powers let them deflect blaster bolts.
 

Flamjetxx

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I love that there is optimism for the Disney Star Wars Movies, and I cannot wait to see the new movies regardless of good or bad plots (I must have faith that they actually know what they are doing, and that I'm just a whiny baby about this whole thing, haha).

PS. @Shoggoth I love your take on the movie, because is was indeed entirely too focused on the action scenes over the actual story, but I'm hoping it is just because the plot was on autopilot while following the OT Plot, and I hope they focus more on the new story line/developing the characters. I'm going 5o be honest, I left the theater not knowing the names of the main characters introduced apart from Fin. That cannot be too good of a sign, lol.

Thanks guys for this, my optimism can be considered restored.
 

Flamjetxx

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The idea that the lightsaber are weightless was a product of Episode I, and the films have moved away from that. During the original trilogy, George Lucas explicitly told the actors that lightsabers are meant to be heavy. During the prequels, he did a total 180 and said that they're light/weightless. J.J. Abrams went back to lightsabers having weight and being heavy. So the notion that you need to be trained with a lightsaber because they are a weightless has, thankfully, gone out the window.
That reminds me, how are we going to go about the lightsabers carrying weight or not? I know it is off topic a bit, but it makes me curious, and it is still VAGUELY relevant.
 

Jake

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Physically I dislike the notion that lightsabers are heavy, as the only thing that should potentially weigh anything is the hilt.
 
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