Any Creationists?

[Ols]

Ultimately, whether or not a creator exists, and how it all came to be is moot. Until something happens to prove one way or another, we can argue until the cows come home. Thus, it's this part that I'm going to pick up on.

Indeed.

Alright, that's fair enough. This is, as you said earlier, largely down to personal perception. But, ponder on this, for a moment.

Life exists. We agree here, right? I'd be very surprised if we don't, to be honest.

I can't be sure. If we're going into this, all I can actually be sure of is that I have cognitive thought. The rest of this could all be a wondrous illusion, and there is no way to prove it is not. You might say that you to are capable of cognitive thought, but as far as I know that just might be your programming, if you will.

I agree my thought process "lives" in some format or another. More than that, we can't be sure.

You cannot create something out of nothing. Again, I'd be surprised if we disagree.

No, you can't. Not in the sense that you need the same amount of reactants as products in a chemical reaction, if you see the analogy.

Life had to start somewhere. Agree?

Thus the following problem arises - There was a time when life was not life (pre-life, if you will). At this point, what would (or could) one day be life, is no different from the rock/gas/sludge next to it.

My "life" started somewhere. Assuming that all the scientific facts we are aware of are true, then there is still no reason that the universe, for want of a better term, had a given starting point. We don't know what happened before the big bang. We can only speculate. This is also assuming that "time" (if you take it as an entity rather than a human concept) is linear, rather than circular, and both are illogical. If time is linear, then that means that, as we are living in a given portion of it, it must have started at a given point. But because of the nature of time there had to be time before that, so again, a paradox. If time is circular, then it's in a cycle, but what determines how a given cycle continues, and when it gets back to the beginning, again a paradox.

So in that sense there is no way of being sure when anything started. It's all speculation, even if we assume that life is real and we are all free thinking beings.

@Sin: You're saying matter just came out of nowhere? It's just existed all of the sudden, and then exploded? You call that logical?

No. We don;t know where that came from. There might have been a trillion year existence on a whole plane we don't understand before that. We don't know.

And all matter did come from the big bang, all coming from nuclear fusion...that's how elements are made.

 

[Incubi Priest]

@Sin: eh, still seems contradictory in my book. Not saying you're wrong or anything, I'm just saying that it seems contradictory

(damn, they need to make a shorter word for that lol)

 

[Demiurge]

Then say "conflicting".

 

[Sovereign]

@Sin: You're saying matter just came out of nowhere? It's just existed all of the sudden, and then exploded? You call that logical?

Uh, before matter there was energy.

 

[Incubi Priest]

conflicting
contradictory

Eh, its till a bit to long. I was talking about a 4 letter word or so.

 

[Demiurge]

@Sin: And that's another point where we disagree.

Since you've changed your point, I'll answer it again: And where did the energy come from? It's the same flaw: It had to come from somewhere.

 

[Kit]

Indeed.



I can't be sure. If we're going into this, all I can actually be sure of is that I have cognitive thought. The rest of this could all be a wondrous illusion, and there is no way to prove it is not. You might say that you to are capable of cognitive thought, but as far as I know that just might be your programming, if you will.

I agree my thought process "lives" in some format or another. More than that, we can't be sure.



No, you can't. Not in the sense that you need the same amount of reactants as products in a chemical reaction, if you see the analogy.



My "life" started somewhere. Assuming that all the scientific facts we are aware of are true, then there is still no reason that the universe, for want of a better term, had a given starting point. We don't know what happened before the big bang. We can only speculate. This is also assuming that "time" (if you take it as an entity rather than a human concept) is linear, rather than circular, and both are illogical. If time is linear, then that means that, as we are living in a given portion of it, it must have started at a given point. But because of the nature of time there had to be time before that, so again, a paradox. If time is circular, then it's in a cycle, but what determines how a given cycle continues, and when it gets back to the beginning, again a paradox.

So in that sense there is no way of being sure when anything started. It's all speculation, even if we assume that life is real and we are all free thinking beings.

I'm taking that as a general (though somewhat guarded and reluctant) agree.

So, continuing! :CHappy:

Basically, we agree that you can't make something out of nothing, in the same way that 0+0=0 and not 1.

And that life had to have a start at some point (even with cyclical time).

So, where did that life come from? What was it that caused x amount of matter to slowly become a living organism over time (and then evolve and so on) and y amount of matter to simply remain as rocks, gases and so on?

In that we agree that there is no way to make something out of nothing, how was life made out of not-life? It's like having a sealed beaker of water (that's been treated to remove every living organism in it) and then having bacteria appear in it. It just doesn't happen.

In this respect, and continuing the sum analogy, not having a something to change one of the 0's into a 1 is illogical, if you are expecting a one to come out at the end.

Creation of the universe completely put to one side, in this respect, having a creator force is the only reasonable answer. Probably. :D

 

[Incubi Priest]

@Sin: And that's another point where we disagree.

Um...energy was around before matter. I'm pretty sure that is a fact.

 

[Demiurge]

He changed his post. It originally said "life is illogical" or something to that effect. Those may not be the exact words, but they're close to it. That why I responded the way that I did.

 

[Sovereign]

It had to come from somewhere.

We don't know yet.

 

[The Balance]

I'm not really sure what to believe, but as of now I think God made the processes we call evolution.

and @ Kupo, just being the devils advocate here, the only life we can prove is our own. Like descartes said, "I think therefore I am."

 

[Demiurge]

We don't know yet.

And you never will know, believing in evolution. Paper doesn't simply "exist", and neither do cars or concrete sidewalks. Matter, energy, objects, ect. - nothing simply exists without having been created.

 

[Sovereign]

@Sin: And you never will know, believing in evolution. Paper doesn't simply "exist", and neither do cars or concrete sidewalks. Matter, energy, objects, ect. - nothing simply exists without having been created.

Slow down.

The Big Bang and Evolution are two different theories.

One is about the origin of the specie.

The other is about the creation of the universe.

We actually know how matter was formed, we just don't know about energy yet. But we might eventually.

 

[Kit]

and @ Kupo, just being the devils advocate here, the only life we can prove is our own. Like descartes said, "I think therefore I am."

In which case you wouldn't mind if I hunted you down and punched you in the face right? I mean, it's not a real punch, since you don't technically know I exist... :D

Of course, using that logic, nothing truly exists. We may as well just be brains floating in jars. If that.

 

[The Balance]

In which case you wouldn't mind if I hunted you down and punched you in the face right? I mean, it's not a real punch, since you don't technically know I exist... :D

Of course, using that logic, nothing truly exists. We may as well just be brains floating in jars. If that.

Depends if your strong or not. >.>.

Ya, I;ve thought of that and its really creepy.

 

[Incubi Priest]

Ok Sin, I won't lie...

I created the energy. I know, I know, its a shocker but its true.

 

[Demiurge]

Slow down.

The Big Bang and Evolution are two different theories.

One is about the origin of the specie.

The other is about the creation of the universe.

We actually know how matter was formed, we just don't know about energy yet. But we might eventually.

My apologies, I just hear the two terms used often. I don't believe in the Big Bang, and even if it did happen, God was behind it. But knowing how something formed isn't the same as knowing how it came to be formed. What made the matter form? And what formed the energy? And what formed that which formed the energy? And how did any of it get there in the first place? Something had to be behind it.

 

[Regret]

My apologies, I just hear the two terms used often. I don't believe in the Big Bang, and even if it did happen, God was behind it. But knowing how something formed isn't the same as knowing how it came to be formed. What made the matter form? And what formed the energy? And what formed that which formed the energy? And how did any of it get there in the first place? Something had to be behind it.

Science.

 

[Sovereign]

What made the matter form?

Energy.

When something is really hot, it makes atom go extremely fast. When they go extremely fast, they collide with each other and form matter.

And what formed the energy?

Leo, apparently.

And what formed that which formed the energy?

See the above post.

And what formed the energy?

And how did any of it get there in the first place? Something had to be behind it.[/QUOTE]

What do you mean, "how it got here?"

By the way, you're always challenging science when you're not even challenging your own beliefs. They are thousands of scientific documents explaining the theory of the Big Bang in great lengths. Using advance technology, like the Hubble Telescope, we can actually take a peak at the early stage of the universe. While science was working its butt off, religion kept repeating the same old argument: "God Made Everything"

Look here, I'm actually agnostic, but I don't dismiss all the work of science because God supposedly made everything.

 

[Demiurge]

@: I am ghost: That's not an answer. Science is "The collective discipline of study or learning acquired through the scientific method; the sum of knowledge gained from such methods and discipline." In short, science is knowledge or understanding. So far, science has failed to answer.

@Sin: I'm dismissing that it all happened on it's own, not that it happened. God has set things in motion before, so if the Big Bang happened (still a theory) God was behind it.

By the way on your account, your answer "Leo, apparently" should be "I haven't the slightest clue".