Captain America: Civil War

[Johnnysaurus Rex]

I'm just glad this Civil War plot seems more or less different then the ones in the Comics, which I really do not like. Which, in this case...

Team Tony.

Yeah, here is hoping they don't turn Tony into a fascist like the comic. Which I supported the Registration side and was disappointing they made sure you really couldn't identify with them. In the movie version I am also supporting Tony's side of oversight and accountability so I hope they don't try and ruin his argument by having him dubious things... though he is having a 15 year old fight for him...

I must agree that the Avengers should be controlled.
However - I also find it odd that Black Widow in on the same side as Stark.

It's projected, from who Black Widow is and scenes from the trailers, she does switch sides or was on Tony's side as a spy.

 

[Phil]

Yeah, here is hoping they don't turn Tony into a fascist like the comic. Which I supported the Registration side and was disappointing they made sure you really couldn't identify with them. In the movie version I am also supporting Tony's side of oversight and accountability so I hope they don't try and ruin his argument by having him dubious things... though he is having a 15 year old fight for him...

Peter should not have put on the suit and become Spider-Man if he didn't want to fight in the first place.

 

[Korvo]

In the movie version I am also supporting Tony's side of oversight and accountability so I hope they don't try and ruin his argument by having him dubious things... though he is having a 15 year old fight for him...

If you think that's "dubious", just wait till I tell you a lil' somethin' about Batman...

 

[Mr.BossMan]

I'm super conflicted about whose side I'm on.

Character wise, I love Tony Stark far more than Captain America. Far more.

But I like captain america simply because he does have a point. Super Hero's can't be restricted just because people die.

Then again, super hero's need to be restricted because they have the power to do great harm.

Damn.

 

[Phil]

I'm sure it just depends on the scenario. If there was another alien invasion, the army and police wouldn't be able to stop it and I know for a fact The Avengers would not wait for them to figure that out. They did their best to reduce the casualties from Loki's Chitauri Invasion and Ultron's Sokovia Doomsday plan. If anything, the whole thing with Ultron should be the main reason this is going into effect, and why Tony is all for it.

I'm curious on how this will effect "Agents of SHIELD", since there is several Inhumans in SHIELD.

 

[Brandon Rhea]

They're both right, to a certain extent. Having government oversight over the Avengers is not a bad idea, as long as it doesn't tie their hands. The Avengers were, after all, originally a government-sponsored organization via SHIELD. So Tony is right in that sense. Steve is right in the sense that the agency that last had oversight over the Avengers turned out to be controlled by a secret Nazi death cult that was about to kill millions of people, so he's not wrong to distrust the government.

The most flawed of the arguments, from what we've seen so far, comes from Secretary Ross. He shows three examples to prove why there needs to be oversight: New York, Washington, and Sakovia. Of the three, only one is the fault of the Avengers - that would be Sakovia, which came about because Tony and Bruce made Ultron. The first two were not the fault of the Avengers. New York was going to happen with or without the Avengers. And in fact, the only reason the death toll was so limited was because Loki focused all of his forces on the Avengers, and the team was smart about it and used that to their advantage to keep the Chutari contained. And with Washington, if it wasn't for Cap and his team, Hydra would have killed millions of people.

So I totally understand that people feel scared. That makes sense. But Ross and other world leaders are exploiting that, Tony is going too far (probably due to his guilt over Ultron), and Cap is probably going about things the wrong way in order to save Bucky.

It'll be interesting to see how it all turns out.

 

[Mr.BossMan]

Ya.

Brandon you da man home skillet.

 

[Johnnysaurus Rex]

Peter should not have put on the suit and become Spider-Man if he didn't want to fight in the first place.

Yes, because teenagers always make the best decisions.

If you think that's "dubious", just wait till I tell you a lil' somethin' about Batman...

Which has been addressed in the comics numerous times and why the only Robin we do have in the live action films is older.

It'll be interesting to see how it all turns out.

Agreed, as long as they don't pull anything like they did in the comics. Tony, as I've said before, only has a point as long as he doesn't cross a line. Steve loses out if his selfish quest to save Bucky causes more unchecked destruction. Which judging from the trailers...

 

[Phil]

Yes, because teenagers always make the best decisions.

Irrelevant. He gained the powers, he decided to put on the suit and be a super hero. If he's got that far and possibly been doing stuff, then he's possibly mature enough(As mature as Spider-Man can be, mind you) that Tony would allow him to be on the team. Sometimes people get forced into situations where they can't be a kid anymore and just have to adult up. Not that I am saying Tony is doing it to Peter.

 

[Johnnysaurus Rex]

Irrelevant. He gained the powers, he decided to put on the suit and be a super hero. If he's got that far and possibly been doing stuff, then he's possibly mature enough(As mature as Spider-Man can be, mind you) that Tony would allow him to be on the team. Sometimes people get forced into situations where they can't be a kid anymore and just have to adult up. Not that I am saying Tony is doing it to Peter.

It's even more relevant given his age. Given that logic we should just allow gun toting teenagers to walk the streets as long as they "feel adult enough" or can handle the consequences.

Peter Parker had powers thrust upon him and the guilt of his Uncle's death propelling him into being a crime fighter. A decision he was not old enough to fully appreciate. This slapdash call to action has been a part of Spider-Man stories many times with the amount of times he just stops being Spider-Man, fails a given task, or even has someone die on his watch. All things that would be extremely traumatic for anyone regardless of age.

Regardless of powers or "maturity" there are laws that the Western world observes when it comes to acceptable ages for combat and government service (barring the obvious law violation of vigilantism). Fifteen is not that age. Peter Parker is not just a kid with a gun. He's worse than that. He's a kid who can lift ten tons, stick to walls, and jump several stories. I agree he should be given guidance and tutelage in these abilities (I supported the comics Superhero Registration), but not by Tony Stark. Tony Stark the alcoholic. Tony Stark the egotist. Tony Stark the guy who against all advice to the contrary pushed forward the invention of Ultron which was minutes away from destroying the world.

 

[Phil]

It's even more relevant given his age. Given that logic we should just allow gun toting teenagers to walk the streets as long as they "feel adult enough" or can handle the consequences.

This is a much different scenario and you know it.

Peter Parker had powers thrust upon him and the guilt of his Uncle's death propelling him into being a crime fighter. A decision he was not old enough to fully appreciate. This slapdash call to action has been a part of Spider-Man stories many times with the amount of times he just stops being Spider-Man, fails a given task, or even has someone die on his watch. All things that would be extremely traumatic for anyone regardless of age.

And some people move on and accept it. Does not mean it troubles them. I think you are putting far too much thought and concern into this with Peter Parker.

Regardless of powers or "maturity" there are laws that the Western world observes when it comes to acceptable ages for combat and government service (barring the obvious law violation of vigilantism). Fifteen is not that age. Peter Parker is not just a kid with a gun. He's worse than that. He's a kid who can lift ten tons, stick to walls, and jump several stories. I agree he should be given guidance and tutelage in these abilities (I supported the comics Superhero Registration), but not by Tony Stark. Tony Stark the alcoholic. Tony Stark the egotist. Tony Stark the guy who against all advice to the contrary pushed forward the invention of Ultron which was minutes away from destroying the world.

This isn't the army, it's a super hero group that has experimented humans, a God, an android, and several people using highly advanced technology. They probably are helping Peter more then any other group can, or before Hydra could find him and do Lord knows what. Also it's clear Tony feels guilty about it what he did, but I'm sure he is not the one calling every shot(Because of Ultron) and is probably just in charge of getting Rogers and his group under control. We don't even know if Peter is fully on Stark's side, same with Natasha as was discussed. I'll wait and see the film before I fully judge.

If anything, there needs to be something to explain why they even want Tony helping them after the whole Ultron thing, since apparently Banner is MIA.

 

[Nor'baal]

@Brandon Rhea is clearly a HYDRA Agent.

 

[Brandon Rhea]

I agree he should be given guidance and tutelage in these abilities (I supported the comics Superhero Registration), but not by Tony Stark. Tony Stark the alcoholic. Tony Stark the egotist. Tony Stark the guy who against all advice to the contrary pushed forward the invention of Ultron which was minutes away from destroying the world.

everyone: tony no
tony: tony yes

 

[Johnnysaurus Rex]

This is a much different scenario and you know it.

You're right. Which is why I clarify he is worse than that later on in my statement. Again, he is a kid with great power and responsibility (hyuk hyuk hyuk) thrust upon him. If that spider had bit anyone else you'd have a kid that could dodge bullets and punch through metal. Way worse than a kid accidentally getting a gun. You're right.

And some people move on and accept it. Does not mean it troubles them. I think you are putting far too much thought and concern into this with Peter Parker.

I'm really not, as I said it is a constant point brought up about the character in the various games, cartoons, and comics he is in. Peter Parker is a character defined by troubles, especially in his early years.

This isn't the army, it's a super hero group that has experimented humans, a God, an android, and several people using highly advanced technology. They probably are helping Peter more then any other group can, or before Hydra could find him and do Lord knows what. Also it's clear Tony feels guilty about it what he did, but I'm sure he is not the one calling every shot(Because of Ultron) and is probably just in charge of getting Rogers and his group under control. We don't even know if Peter is fully on Stark's side, same with Natasha as was discussed. I'll wait and see the film before I fully judge.

If anything, there needs to be something to explain why they even want Tony helping them after the whole Ultron thing, since apparently Banner is MIA.

It isn't the army but Tony's side is fighting for US GOVERNMENT oversight and regulation. I would love to see the pitch to them about putting a 15 year old on the front lines. I agree they are the best to train him, but last I checked "Let's fight these other super powered folks!" isn't training. Tony can feel guilty all he wants, but you yourself were bringing him as the one to get Peter involved, reflecting his poor judgement. (OH! Let's not forget the time he openly provoked terrorists and nearly got Pepper killed. I love that one.) So yeah, I agree they need to explain why consistent fuck up Tony Stark is being looked to as an authority on the matter. Especially when he recruits a teenager to his team!

 

[Tsunami]

I am on the team that doesn't have spider man on.

Plus Captain America is a Stella chap.

 

[Mr.BossMan]

Okay Tony Stark is not a consistent fuck up. He was a fuck up but over the various marvel movies his character has changed.

In the first film he was all about making money by selling highly lethal weaponry. After seeing the damage his weapons did he changed and he stopped creating them. He thus became Iron Man and decided to fight against injustice.

In the second Iron Man he wanted to be a lone wolf. He didn't want anyone else having a suit of his armor and using it like he did. Then he realized he couldn't fight all battles alone. So he learned to accept others help. Such as Pipers love and (I forget his name) but the black guy war machine.

I haven't seen Iron Man 3.

In the Avengers Captain America called Iron Man not a hero at all. He said Iron Man wasn't willing to "lay down on the wire and let someone else walk over him." Or "Make the Sacrifice play." However we learn by the end of the movie that Tony Stark is a good man. He does make that sacrifice play, and he is a Hero.

In Age of Ultron Tony is tested unlike any other movie he's in. We begin the movie were he sees every Avenger dead. Then throughout the course of the movie he is trying to find a way out. He finds this in Ultron. No longer does he and his friends have to fight the good fight, Ultron and his robots can fight for them. Tony wanted to protect the earth, not destroy it. So he built Ultron, events happened, and learned from them. But he was good the whole time.

Tony Stark is a Man more than anything else. He's a character that I think we can all relate to and we all love to see him grow not only as a person but as a hero. So don't degrade him by calling him an "alcoholic" and "egotistical" or "the guy who created Ultron who nearly destroyed the world."

Because he has learned from all of this and changed.

 

[Johnnysaurus Rex]

Tony Stark is a Man more than anything else. He's a character that I think we can all relate to and we all love to see him grow not only as a person but as a hero. So don't degrade him by calling him an "alcoholic" and "egotistical" or "the guy who created Ultron who nearly destroyed the world."

Because he has learned from all of this and changed.

Let's start off by saying Tony Stark is a fictional character in a fictional universe. So my apologies to the ink on my graphic novels. I will pour vodka martinis on my copy of Avengers Assemble as a peace offering.

Okay Tony Stark is not a consistent **** up. He was a **** up but over the various marvel movies his character has changed.

Yes, Tony has had character growth throughout the movies, but that doesn't stop him from making the same mistakes perpetually. His motivations have been arrogance and guilt.

In the first film he was all about making money by selling highly lethal weaponry. After seeing the damage his weapons did he changed and he stopped creating them. He thus became Iron Man and decided to fight against injustice.

Arrogance ===> Guilt ===> Arrogance
He did not decide to "fight injustice". Tony Stark's call to action was when he realized that his livelihood and blase attitude towards the products he put on the weapons market actually killed people (Arrogance). He then decides to make a weapon in order to destroy his weapons out of the guilt he experiences over their first hand use. He never does anything because it is "right". The villagers he saves circumstantially happened to be part of the Ten Rings group using Stark Tech. Does the movie go around showing him providing aid or stopping every bad thing happening in the region? Nope. Tony flies in, blows shit up, and leaves the now destabilized area. Our hero. He then goes on to handle everything else on his own before declaring at the end of the film, "I am Iron Man." despite the practicality of disassociating the man in the armor and Tony Stark. Tony NEEDS to be the man getting the attention. Bringing us back to arrogance.

In the second Iron Man he wanted to be a lone wolf. He didn't want anyone else having a suit of his armor and using it like he did. Then he realized he couldn't fight all battles alone. So he learned to accept others help. Such as Pipers love and (I forget his name) but the black guy war machine.

I haven't seen Iron Man 3.

Holy shit. I was going to try. Like really. I had a whole outline where I was going to illustrate the cycle of Arrogance and Guilt in every movie for Tony and try to explain where I am coming from but you are defending a character where in his own movie you don't get Pepper's name right, which I can let slide, but in writing your response to me and having the WHOOOOOOOOOOOLE internet and time on your hand to look up James Rhodes' name you settle on "black guy warmachine". Or even bother to watch one of the movies of the guy who you are defending.

Tony Stark makes bad choices and hasn't stopped being a selfish guilt tripping hero since the first movie despite some character development. Holy shit.

 

[Mr.BossMan]

Let's start off by saying Tony Stark is a fictional character in a fictional universe. So my apologies to the ink on my graphic novels. I will pour vodka martinis on my copy of Avengers Assemble as a peace offering.


Yes, Tony has had character growth throughout the movies, but that doesn't stop him from making the same mistakes perpetually. His motivations have been arrogance and guilt.


Arrogance ===> Guilt ===> Arrogance
He did not decide to "fight injustice". Tony Stark's call to action was when he realized that his livelihood and blase attitude towards the products he put on the weapons market actually killed people (Arrogance). He then decides to make a weapon in order to destroy his weapons out of the guilt he experiences over their first hand use. He never does anything because it is "right". The villagers he saves circumstantially happened to be part of the Ten Rings group using Stark Tech. Does the movie go around showing him providing aid or stopping every bad thing happening in the region? Nope. Tony flies in, blows shit up, and leaves the now destabilized area. Our hero. He then goes on to handle everything else on his own before declaring at the end of the film, "I am Iron Man." despite the practicality of disassociating the man in the armor and Tony Stark. Tony NEEDS to be the man getting the attention. Bringing us back to arrogance.



Holy shit. I was going to try. Like really. I had a whole outline where I was going to illustrate the cycle of Arrogance and Guilt in every movie for Tony and try to explain where I am coming from but you are defending a character where in his own movie you don't get Pepper's name right, which I can let slide, but in writing your response to me and having the WHOOOOOOOOOOOLE internet and time on your hand to look up James Rhodes' name you settle on "black guy warmachine". Or even bother to watch one of the movies of the guy who you are defending.

Tony Stark makes bad choices and hasn't stopped being a selfish guilt tripping hero since the first movie despite some character development. Holy shit.

Lol, I was in a rush my man. Also I hope you didn't think my response had a hostile tone, it was not intended. However I do think you are wrong on some things.

I think Tony was Arrogant starting off, like he was truely Arrogant. Then over the rest of the movies this dies down and it becomes "humorous Arrogance" not true arrogance. Its just a part of his personality that he thinks is funny so he uses it. He doesn't truely believe he is better than everyone else, he actually gets a little more humble.

 

[Lamper]

I really like Bucky and the make or break relationship between him and Cap. So I'm partial to that side also cuz it makes the larger debate a smaller, more personal choice. Which is also why I like how Tony feels betrayed.

 

[Phil]

In the Avengers Captain America called Iron Man not a hero at all. He said Iron Man wasn't willing to "lay down on the wire and let someone else walk over him." Or "Make the Sacrifice play." However we learn by the end of the movie that Tony Stark is a good man. He does make that sacrifice play, and he is a Hero.

In Age of Ultron Tony is tested unlike any other movie he's in. We begin the movie were he sees every Avenger dead. Then throughout the course of the movie he is trying to find a way out. He finds this in Ultron. No longer does he and his friends have to fight the good fight, Ultron and his robots can fight for them. Tony wanted to protect the earth, not destroy it. So he built Ultron, events happened, and learned from them. But he was good the whole time.

Tony Stark is a Man more than anything else. He's a character that I think we can all relate to and we all love to see him grow not only as a person but as a hero. So don't degrade him by calling him an "alcoholic" and "egotistical" or "the guy who created Ultron who nearly destroyed the world."

Because he has learned from all of this and changed.

This. He never had sinister motives, and all in all, he is a Hero. Not to mention other heroes have made mistakes too. Thor was a pompous ass from the start and all the Guardians of the Galaxy were just criminals, same with Scott Lang. They all mad bad mistakes, but they all became real heroes in the end. Sure, Tony and Banner made a pretty big one, but they also corrected it and redeamed themselves for it.