Does God exist?

[Green Ranger]

I'm pretty sure it's not God i'm feeling, though. There's no distinct smell of two thousand years of bloodshed on the air. ;)

In all seriousness, God may exist, but i'm really not a fan of the huge organised religion he/she (OH NO I DIDN'T!) that's based around God. It's become a thing where people attend the church with little true feelings of attachment to their deity. For many, attending church is a meaningless ritual devoid of any true spiritual fulfillment, because they are attending a church to a religion that they are not fully devoted to or believe in. If everyone pathed their own way for their religious beliefs, the world would be a better place for it.

Of course, I suppose I am a little biased against christianity. It seems I can't have a pagan wedding in Australia, as it is not a 'recognized' religion.

 

[Wildcard]

Enishi, I think that the Old Testament God, which is the one you're referring to, was supposed to be the "jealous and vengeful" Hebrew God, remember? Also, the slavery thing was largely economic. Many nations depended on it for cheap labor. Survival comes before morality in that case.

 

[Ser Gregor]

Enishi, I think that the Old Testament God, which is the one you're referring to, was supposed to be the "jealous and vengeful" Hebrew God, remember?

You didn't just say that? They were the same god, in and out. The Old Testament was simply before the comming of Jesus.

 

[Brandon Rhea]

The Old Testament God and the New Testament God are the same God, yes, but the two testaments were written for specific purposes. The Old Testament is meant to keep people in line and maintain order. The New Testament is meant to inspire.

Same God, different interpretation of events.

 

[Wildcard]

You didn't just say that? They were the same god, in and out. The Old Testament was simply before the comming of Jesus.

Heh. I don't really pay much attention to Christian mythology, to be honest.

 

[Lillianne Crasse]

I personally believe that Jesus Christ intended not to create God, but to create morals. At the time, there were Gods and Godessess and the end for any life was a trip to the underworld. Jesus, I believe, created the one God and one Satan to have humanity be good to each other; to avoid sleeping with your neighbors wife, to not steal, etc.

Jesus was a follower of God no matter how you view His purpose on this earth. He didn't create God when the people, the Jews, were believing and worshipping God for years before Jesus was born on this earth. Now, for those of you that want to quote John to me about Jesus' birth, I know it, but I'm making a point here about when He was born as a babe. Also, based upon this same Torah, the words of many prophets and prophetesses, Jesus was the one prophesied to come years and years before His birth. Also, the idea of Satan, or the serpant, the evil one, did not originate with Jesus.

Now, onto God's "Miracles"; Starting with the birth of Christ.

An angel supposedly impregnated Mary, the virgin, with the son of god. Now, this seems pretty odd: a young woman witnesses an angel impregnates her, then disappears without any sign of his presence? Perhaps she slept with another man? or perhaps she was raped?

Never does the Bible say that Mary was impregnated by the angel. It talks of the Holy Spirit coming to her instead:

From the book of Luke:
The Birth of Jesus Foretold

26In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin's name was Mary. 28The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you."

29Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God. 31You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus. 32He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end."
34"How will this be," Mary asked the angel, "since I am a virgin?"
35The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called[c] the Son of God. 36Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be barren is in her sixth month. 37For nothing is impossible with God." 38"I am the Lord's servant," Mary answered. "May it be to me as you have said." Then the angel left her.

---

The creation of Adam and Eve.

I believe there is no need to explain this one; God only made two humans? and they only had five children, three girls and two boys. One of the boys was murdered, btw, by his brother.

Now you're getting into the meat of Christianity that is still discussed today. The truth is that we don't have all of the answers, but given what laws are in the Old Testament God probably created more than one man and woman at the beginning. If you believe in God and that He created Adam and Eve, then you believe He would have the power to create more people as well. However, you're talking an argument about literal and figarative understandings of the Bible that all Christians still don't see eye to eye on.


---

The Great Flood.

Noah builds an Ark then collects two of every animal, in order to survive a rain storm that would last 40 days and 40 nights.

First, and foremost, how would he collect two of every animal in the animal kingdom? not to mention the predators?

Now, this rain storm happened in the middle east (mainly desert). Wouldn't the sand absorb the rain?

Sand doesn't absorb rain. It is porous and the rain can collect in it's pores, but it doesn't absorb it. The rain also flooded all of the earth. Also, again according to the Bible which you're using these examples, it tells us that the animals came to the ark, two by two and lion laid with lamb, meaning during this time the predators weren't trying to eat the prey they usually hunted. If you believe in God, than you believe that He could cause the animals He created to live in peace and harmony for a time. Besides, again, He was preserving these animals and all life for Noah and his family.

Genesis 6: "20 Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive. 21 You are to take every kind of food that is to be eaten and store it away as food for you and for them."
---

Alot of people believe that god is the one performing medical miracles, curing cancer, illnesses, etc.

So here is a question: Why won't God heal amputees?

It's obvious that an amputated limb can't regenerate. However, sickly people pray to god for miracles and so do amputees. It would seem that those who are amputees are unlucky.

You bring up a question that I don't think anyone could have an answer for. However, most that have lost a limb did so in the efforts to save their life or their life was spared and they only lost a limb.

---

Why does god demand the death of so many innocent people in the bible?

Look up these verses in the bible:

Exodus 35:2 - God demands we kill everyone who works on the Sabbath Day.

Deuteronomy 21:18-21 - God demands that we kill disobedient teenagers

Leviticus 20:13 - God demands the death of homosexuals

Deuteronomy 22:13-21 - God demands that we kill girls who are not virgins when they marry.

And so on.

Does it make sense? Why would a Loving God want to kill our fellow man for such trivial matters?

Just because you work on the wrong day of the week, you must die?

The whole purpose of the Laws of the Old Testament is to show how far we fall short from being holy people. Breaking these laws were sinning. The consequence of sinning was death. However, God had a plan to show the people a better way. First they had to be prepared to listen, hence the prophets and prophetesses of the Old Testament, preparing the way for Jesus to come and a new covenant. Restoration at last.

---

And one final question:

Why was God such a proponent of slavery in the bible?

Where do you get the idea that God was a proponent of slavery? He taught the masters to treat their slaves well. Some who were enslaved were eventually set free. However, He also gave word to the slaves to do their work to the best of their ability for their masters. You can't change society in one night and expect people to take it in stride. Changes must be made slowly. Change their minds and hearts and all sorts of wonderful things will begin to happen. Christ set all believers free.

However, I know many of these words you'll scoff at or probably ignore. I admit that I don't have all the answers. What I believe might not even be the way things are, but that's between me and my God.

 

[Brandon Rhea]

Enishi, I'm not defending the Bible's account of the great flood, but are you serious about that sand comment? You do realize that the Middle East was fertile farmland thousands of years ago, right?

 

[Wildcard]

You can't change society in one night and expect people to take it in stride.

Yeah, look at the after-effects of the American Civil War when we tried to do that.

 

[Ser Gregor]

Enishi, I'm not defending the Bible's account of the great flood, but are you serious about that sand comment? You do realize that the Middle East was fertile farmland thousands of years ago, right?

Well, only the banks of the Euphrates and Tigris were fertile. The rest was realy all sand and desert. Same for any river civilization.

 

[Brandon Rhea]

Well, only the banks of the Euphrates and Tigris were fertile. The rest was realy all sand and desert. Same for any river civilization.

Today, the fertile crescent comprises Egypt, Israel, West Bank, Gaza strip, Lebanon and parts of Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Turkey and Iran. Back in the day, that fertile area was a lot bigger.

I mean, here's a picture of northwestern Iran today. It looks like something you could find in the United States or England, not the Middle East. There was a lot more of this back in the day.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/56/East_Azerbaijan_Moghan_plain.jpg

 

[Ser Gregor]

Today, the fertile crescent comprises Egypt, Israel, West Bank, Gaza strip, Lebanon and parts of Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Turkey and Iran. Back in the day, that fertile area was a lot bigger.

I mean, here's a picture of northwestern Iran today. It looks like something you could find in the United States or England, not the Middle East. There was a lot more of this back in the day.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/56/East_Azerbaijan_Moghan_plain.jpg

You've got that reversed. The fertile crescent of the time of Christ was more comfined to the banks of the large rivers, and it's offshoots. Of course, they had irragation channels and technologies that allowed for a large(for that time, compared to the population), artificial fertile area. But now, it's larger, because of the more advanced technology we have available for us.

 

[Lillianne Crasse]

You've got that reversed. The fertile crescent of the time of Christ was more comfined to the banks of the large rivers, and it's offshoots. Of course, they had irragation channels and technologies that allowed for a large(for that time, compared to the population), artificial fertile area. But now, it's larger, because of the more advanced technology we have available for us.

Don't forget the Roman aquaducts.

 

[Brandon Rhea]

You've got that reversed. The fertile crescent of the time of Christ was more comfined to the banks of the large rivers, and it's offshoots. Of course, they had irragation channels and technologies that allowed for a large(for that time, compared to the population), artificial fertile area. But now, it's larger, because of the more advanced technology we have available for us.

So, all of my college history books referring to the Middle East as farmland are wrong, then? I suppose my professors would be wrong as well.

 

[Ser Gregor]

Don't forget the Roman aquaducts.

Yes, but the crescent now is still bigger. Of course, we've largely left that to deteriorate, since we moved to oil production.

 

[Lillianne Crasse]

So, all of my college history books referring to the Middle East as farmland are wrong, then? I suppose my professors would be wrong as well.

I think you're both partially correct. You had vineyards, olive groves, etc growing in those times for the people. These are things they ate of often. There were all kinds of crops that were farmed in these times. The people had to eat, have their flour, yeast, etc for their breads.....

 

[Ser Gregor]

So, all of my college history books referring to the Middle East as farmland are wrong, then? I suppose my professors would be wrong as well.

No need for the attitude. The fact is the fertile crescent now is larger then in biblical times. The areas where they were populated, however, were much more rich in soil then now. So, in quality of the soil, biblical times had more. But less actuall fertile land.

 

[Brandon Rhea]

The areas where they were populated, however, were much more rich in soil then now.

You just basically said what I've been talking about the entire time. And, there was no attitude. It was a simple question.

 

[Ser Gregor]

You just basically said what I've been talking about the entire time. And, there was no attitude. It was a simple question.

You were saying the crescent was larger(at least, that's what I could glean from your words), which it was not. Larger and more fertile are two seperate things. And I read attitude from those words.

EDIT: Anyways, this has gotten a little Off-Topic, no? Talking about if god exists to how fertile the Middle-East was 2,000 years ago. lol, that's a new one.

 

[Ser Yorick]

Also, based upon this same Torah, the words of many prophets and prophetesses, Jesus was the one prophesied to come years and years before His birth.

Correct me if I am wrong, but don't the Jews (who study the Torah and its teachings, as it is their holy scripture) believe that Jesus was, in fact, not the Messiah? That it wasn't Jesus Christ who was the one prophesied about? Oh, and let's not even start on the Qu'ran, which believes that both the Jews and Christians are just not seeing the big picture here. Muslims believe that Jesus was just one of many prophets, and that he did not in fact, die. So, which one is right? Jews came first, then Christians, and then finally the Muslims. So, if we take these faiths at face value, then it just seems that as we go along, we're "upgrading" religion. Christians believe that the Jews missed something, and the Muslims believe that the Christians missed something.

I believe we're all missing something. The Torah, the Qu'ran, the Sunnah, the Bible, all that jazz. They're just books, they're just stories compiled over the years, with just as much proof of the existence of God/Allah/G-d as the next, seeing as they all quote each other in the end as evidence. They all believe that this God came down and made each author write exactly what he wanted them to. Which is right? Does it matter? Not to me. It does not matter to me, because I cannot even fathom a God that would let all of the world's atrocities continue, especially if he is all-knowing, as everything that has happened is according to his plan. He gave us free will? But are we not his creation? He knew all of this would happen, right? HE CREATED US! Free will? Impossible, if he made us for a purpose.

The Buddhists have it the best. There doesn't need to be a God, there doesn't need to be a Satan to blame for our troubles and greed, only ourselves. Behave well in this life, and you will be rewarded. For me, the reward isn't eternal peace in the afterlife, it's not Nirvana, it's not Heaven. The reward for leading a good life, for me, is knowing that I am loved, and have loved. That's all that fucking matters. Screw your God, if he exists, why doesn't he show himself? If he cannot, because that would interfere with my free will, and my own faith, then why did he make an exception with Jesus?

 

[Brandon Rhea]

Correct me if I am wrong, but don't the Jews (who study the Torah and its teachings, as it is their holy scripture) believe that Jesus was, in fact, not the Messiah?

Indeed. They believe that early Christians misinterpreted the Messianic Prophecy and that the true messiah has yet to come.