End of the Timeline

Brandon Rhea

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Hi all. The staff and FLs now know the ending of the timeline, so I'm sharing it here as well so the Sith team can discuss it too.
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Hey guys. Over two years ago now, Boli and I had our first conversation about what we wanted the end of the Star Wars Legacies mythology to look like. Those ideas have developed since then, and we recently presented our vision for the end of the timeline and, indeed, the nearly eleven year long SWRP mythology to the rest of the staff. With the staff on board with the idea, it is now time to present this vision to you. This thread will outline the plan.

As a head's up, this is going to be a really long thread. There's a lot of backstory that I feel we need to give, because not everyone here was around for past timelines, and I want to make sure everyone is on the same page with how the legacy of those timelines is going to come into play in the finale. So apologies for the length of this thread.

If you have questions or feedback, please feel free to post it.

The Road to Star Wars Legacies

The idea of balance goes back to the ancient Je’daii Order, the Tythonian precursor of the Jedi Order that existed before the Force Wars. In the time of the Je'daii, the Force was in a neutral state. Balance was the neutrality between light and dark, the equal weight between chaos and harmony that defines human nature itself. The purpose of the Je'daii was to keep the Force in balance; as they kept the peace between the light and dark within themselves, it fed into the Living Force, the energies of which are channeled into the Cosmic Force. But when the Je'daii split into light and dark sects, and the Jedi Order arose from the ashes of the Force Wars, the Force started feeling something new. It felt the prevalence of light, and the absence of darkness.

Nature abhors a vacuum, so the Force, in its primal state, reacted. Darkness slowly began to spread. It started out small. First it was Rajivari, one of the founders of the Jedi Order who attempted to destroy the Order he helped build. Next came Adena Kheldrommas and the Cult of the Darksphere, which wrongly discredited the idea that you could follow the dark side of the Force without being evil and murderous. Then came Xendor and the First Great Schism. These were all small events, but they were eventually going to build to something bigger.

That bigger event eventually arose during our third and fourth timelines, in the era of the Alsakan Crisis and the Great Hutt Wars. During the Alsakan Crisis, Jedi Knight Sarina Lightell disagreed with the direction of the Jedi Order in trying to make peace between the Old Republic and the Alsakan Union after the Alsakans took control of Coruscant, a peace that Grand Master Banik Kelrada was trying to push for. Sarina wanted to undermine Banik's leadership, not for any nefarious purpose but to try to get the Jedi to build a better Order. One of the people she talked to was Talzea Keldroma, a Jedi Knight and Banik's lover. Talzea already disagreed with Banik over bringing peace between the Republic and the Alsakans, instead wanting to fight the Alsakans, and what Sarina says convinces Talzea that they are right. What Sarina said inadvertently convinces Talzea to break things off with Banik, which happens right after the Alsakan Vicar, Lharra, was assassinated and Banik was falsely implicated in the crime.

The Vicar's assassination led to the Conclave on Ossus, where the Jedi Order discussed how it would respond to the assassination and move forward in the war. Sarina used the Force to try to influence Banik and her own husband, Jedi Master Edo Tesu. She was able to get inside Banik's head because he was emotionally compromised; the assassination and losing Talzea created cracks in the wall of his mind. Instead of slightly influencing them to air their disagreements, Banik and Edo ended up fighting. Edo lost his hand, and Banik imprisoned him for treason.

After Edo’s arrest, Banik came to his senses and released him. Sarina visited Edo that night and told him about her idea to leave the Order and humiliate Banik, as well as admitting to influencing them both. Edo was outraged, and the argument turned into a fight. Despite only having his left hand, Edo was powerful enough to overwhelm her. However, in her desperation, Sarina managed to make a crucial hit on Edo and killed him. She panicked and hanged Edo’s body from the Jedi Enclave's courtyard tree. The following morning, she blamed Banik once the body was discovered. This created the Second Great Schism, with at least half of the Jedi fleeing with Sarina to form the Ospion Guardians.

The Ospion eventually made their way to Conscio, an ancient world that Xendor once had a base on, and they found Xendor's teachings. Once they did so, they began falling to the dark side. Sarina realized that the Ospion were turning away from her intended purpose of creating a better Jedi Order, and she fled the Ospion once she was unable to convince them to turn back. Many years later, during the Great Hutt Wars, she returned to the Jedi to pay for her crimes, but was instead lured into a trap set by Banik, who had been forced out of the Jedi Order and became mad with rage. Banik had spent years searching for Sarina to get revenge, and so they engaged in a tense duel.

Sarina was killed in the duel, but Banik found no peace in her death. Despite having spent years tracking her down, with killing her being his singular goal, he was still empty inside. He realized that Sarina was the catalyst for what happened to him, but not the driving force behind everything that went wrong with his life. She led the Jedi away from him, but ultimately it was the Jedi who made the choice to betray him. He realized he needed to take vengeance against everyone who wronged him, not just Sarina, so his lust for revenge led him to deciding to take over the Ospion -- now known as the Dark Jedi of the Bogan -- and destroy the Jedi as he destroyed Sarina.

Once in control of the Bogan, Banik put in motion a plan to turn them into the Bogan Empire, and he decided to lead them back to Conscio after they had left a decade earlier. Banik knew about the legends surrounding that planet, where the Sith King Adas ruled as a god thousands of years earlier. Before Adas was killed by the Infinite Empire, he swore to his followers that the descendents of his people, also gods to the planets in Adas' empire, would return. Banik claimed that he and the Bogan were the fulfillment of that promise, so the people of Conscio and the surrounding sector swore allegiance to the new Bogan Empire.

In the years that followed, Banik built his empire throughout the region. As he did so, he felt something strange happening in the Force. As he and his empire became more powerful, the Force began to feel different. He meditated on this for a long time and realized that the building of his empire, the first true dark side empire, was changing the nature of the Force itself. He came to see that the balance of the Force had been shifted to favor the existence of a dark empire. The Force was never intended for this purpose, but the Force often controls people just as it obeys their commands.

Once he realized this, Banik abruptly abdicated his throne. He realized that because the Force was forever on a dark path, he did not have to destroy the Jedi. His revenge would be his legacy: the Jedi would be forced to pay for their sins over and over as each new dark empire arose. He found Talzea, now the Grand Master of the Order, and told her what had happened to the Force. He also told her that he was ready to die. He handed her Sarina's sword so they would both feel like it was Sarina who killed him; even now, even after everything, Banik was still obsessed with what Sarina did. But Banik knew that Talzea, who still loved him, would not just simply execute him, so he attacked her and forced her into a position where she had to kill him. After he was mortally wounded, he noted the futility of using Sarina's sword, but said that wherever she was, he hoped she was suffering.

Talzea, at first, questioned what Banik said about the Force, but in time she too realized that he was telling the truth. She became the first person to put forward the idea that if one person can shift the Force into imbalance, another person could one day shift it back. Talzea's words were the origin of the Chosen One prophecy. Talzea also allowed Banik's Bogan followers to return his body to Conscio, where he was buried in a tomb deep within a valley. These few Bogan followers were eventually killed, and Conscio was left a barren wasteland after it was bombarded by the Hutt Empire. But the red-skinned species who dwelled there, known as the Sith, lived on, and the world eventually took on a new name.

Korriban.

After thousands of years, Banik was proven right, as the imbalance in the Force allowed for the rise of the Sith on Korriban. The dark side teachings that caused Ajunta Pall and the other first Sith Lords to be cast out of the Republic were Bogan teachings from Banik's time. What Banik turned the Bogan into, a group designed for revenge against the Jedi, is what the Sith became. His actions led to the Sith and all the horrors they inflicted against the galaxy. His tomb also became the first in what the Sith eventually called the Valley of the Dark Lords.

But just as Banik's words were prophetic, so too were Talzea's. Anakin Skywalker was born to be the Chosen One. However, when he fell to the dark side, he gave up that destiny. As Obi-Wan Kenobi told him on Mustafar, "You were the Chosen One." His use of "were" became quite literal; Anakin's destiny was forsaken in the fires of Mustafar. As a result, once Anakin killed Darth Sidious, it did not destroy the Sith or bring true balance. It destroyed Sidious and resulted in a temporary shift back towards the light, but that shift did not last. Anakin's true legacy was being the progenitor of the bloodline that would one day restore balance. Anakin's destiny to shift the Force back into balance became the fate of his line, rather than his own fate. In the end, the destiny was passed onto Lana. She is the true Chosen One who will finally undo Banik's mistakes, and ultimately return to the Force to the state it was in during the time of the Je'daii Order.

What does Balance of the Force mean?

It all goes back to the Force Wars and what that kicked off by creating light sects and dark sects. Like the slow mutation of evolution, it took over ten thousand years, but the Bogan Empire eventually arose. The actions of Banik Kelrada in forming that empire, using conditions that could not have happened without that imbalance, gave the Force its first taste of dark empire. It processed that information, it learned from it, and as the powers of the Jedi grew, so too would the Force’s desire for a stronger empire. That led to the rise of the Sith.

This leads to questions: if there is an army of 10,000 Jedi and an army of 10,000 Sith, is that not balance? What is balance? If balance is equality between chaos and harmony, then the eternal wars between the Jedi and Sith could fit that definition. Yet, trillions die in the process, in every war across time immemorial. True balance, the one Lana will bring about, is a return to the neutral state. No armies of light. No armies of darkness.

As time went on, the Force learned more and more. It is a garden, with its own ecosystem and its own internal logic. In a way, it became sentient. It had a will of its own. When Anakin was born and the Jedi believed him to be the Chosen One, the Force reacted. Darth Vader was its reaction. Its will led Anakin to his fall, and to forsake his destiny as the Chosen One. In that instance, the will of the Force ensured that it was not brought back to true balance, because true balance is -- and forgive the crude metaphor -- a factory reset. If you reset it, you essentially kill the soul of the Force itself, and the souls of all who have joined it. The Force, after all, is a living memory; to bring it back into true balance, you destroy the souls of everyone - Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon Jinn, Luke Skywalker. Everyone who had ever died. They are the energies of the Living Force, the collective soul that feeds the Cosmic Force.

That is why the Force acts in self-preservation. It is in constant struggle with itself. As it represents everyone and everything, it naturally does things to bring balance to itself but then must react to stop it, using the tools of balance. That is why a Chosen One can be born, but why the Force would then try to stop it. Chaos tries to bring harmony and harmony tries to bring chaos. Andraste is born to be a destroyer, and Lana is born to be a savior. The Force wants to kill itself and save itself. That means the Force exerts a will to stop those who try to bring balance. The Force itself becomes not an enemy, but something that stands in opposition to the heroes of the galaxy. It is a moral grey area; is it even acceptable to bring balance to the Force? Are the lives of those who might die more important than the souls of those who have already lived?

The Battle of Tython

The ultimately ending begins with Kara Vaalki finding Lana and telling her what happened to Jhon Cordatus in their last encounter: Jhon was gravely injured. For reasons unknown, this has severed his connection to the Force, losing his affinity to the Force and his ability to dream, and leaving him in a coma for many months. When Lana finally speaks to Jhon for the first time since learning that he had kept her parentage from her, he sends her on a path to learn more about the balance of the Force and the secret histories stemming from the Je'daii.

Meanwhile, Kara, Jhon, the Bogan leader ACE, and the Bogan twins Aiden and Elliot Lightell go to Korriban and investigate Banik's tomb. Once they are there, Lana also joins them, having completed her own investigations. Once there, they find the spirit of Banik Kelrada, which has been tied to his tomb for fourteen thousand years and has become broken, rambling, and incoherent. Also there is Sarina, but they cannot see her. Banik knows she is there, even though she never reveals herself to him, which binds the two in a purgatory of sorts. But the arrival of Kara alters the balance of power. The sword of Edo Tesu and the arrival of Tyrn Lightell - Sarina's descendent, Kara's former husband, and a monster created by tragedy -- cause the spirit of Edo Testu to appear along with Sarina. Sarina possesses Tyrn, while Edo possesses Kara, and they act out a final apology before finally moving on. Kara comes to her senses and kills Tyrn, gaining her revenge.

With Sarina gone, a suddenly lucid Banik reveals the truth: he had never been broken. He endured for thousands of years. Sarina had remained behind to keep him in check, but she too fell for his deception and believed it was safe to move on. She was wrong. It is then that Banik reveals his final plan and revenge: the Valley of the Dark Lords, and indeed Korriban itself, is a superweapon of the Force. Millennia of Sith spirits with enough dark side energy had become powerful enough to further disrupt the balance of the Force, and forever plunge it into darkness. The weapon, which Banik activates before he is finally destroyed, allows one person the ability to essentially become the will of the Force, altering it to their design -- a feat that millennia of Sith Lords, even Darth Sidious himself, had tried and failed to accomplish.

The activation of the valley causes a rift in space, causing Tython and Korriban to almost merge in a way (think the alignment of the realms in Thor: The Dark World). This powers a temple on Tython, one that will allow someone to ascend. That someone is Andraste, who discovers the temple and wants to use it to ascend to the will of the Force, like she almost briefly did while she was destroying Coruscant. The group on Korriban moves to Tython to attack her. She strikes them down, toying with them to an extent. They are not even worth killing. Lana is beaten as well, and is knocked unconscious before Andraste enters the temple.

At the same time, there is a massive battle between the Jedi Order and the Sith Order (just the Jedi and Sith; not Rebels or Imperials). We envision that most of the NPCs for the two Orders will be present, as well as any PC who wants to sign up, because this is a monumental battle. The Jedi are there to try to stop Andraste from ascending. The Sith, meanwhile, are trying to stop the Jedi. At this point in time, the Sith think Andraste ascending is a good idea, because it means more power for the Sith and that Andraste can finally destroy the Jedi and the light side once and for all.

While unconscious, and as the battle rages on around her, Lana has a Force vision in which she meets the spirit of Obi-Wan Kenobi on Tatooine. They discuss the prophecy of the Chosen One and what it means to bring balance to the Force. Obi-Wan explains that Lana is pivotal to the galaxy not because of strength or power, but because there is a decision that she has to make that no one else can. He also shows her glimpses of the past, where Andraste was a young girl who wanted a brighter future, and in many ways was much like Lana herself - before she believed Lana was dead, allowed the monster to consume her, became the Empress. In the end, Obi-Wan offers her a choice as well: she can die here and be at peace in the Force, or she can return to Tython where she will also die -- but where she can die as the Chosen One. When Lana comes to, she and Andraste have a final confrontation. Andraste beats her again, leaving Lana near-death, and Andraste begins to ascend. For a brief moment, she steps into conduit between Tython and Korriban and is aware of all of existence.

This is when Lana has to make her final choice, but she does not see it as a choice between salvation or damnation for the galaxy. Rather, she sees it as a choice between salvation and damnation for her mother. Lana wants a bright future as well; she wants to live a normal life, have normal friends, fall in love, have a family, and do all the things a person is supposed to do. But she sees through the facade of the monster that Andraste has become. Andraste wants her power not just because she's power-hungry, but because she wants to rise above those she thinks mock her and torment her. Andraste, at her core, is still that frightened little girl who was deprived a normal life. Lana, who understands that her own life was much better than what she thought it was, wants to give her mother a chance to live. Lana chooses to give up her own future in favor of giving her mother a future, a true sacrifice.

With her choice made, Lana leaps into the conduit, using the Force to protect Andraste and sacrifice herself. Andraste has the Force torn away from her, but she survives. Lana's intervention destabilizes the conduit, and the Force approaches a critical mass. Aiden and Elliot harness the Force and manipulate it, each standing on one planet - one to heal Tython, the other to destroy Korriban. They are successful. Everyone else on Tython has the Force torn from them as well, as the Force has been irrevocably changed. The living memory and collective soul of the Force begins to die as well. (Note: When we announce the Battle of Tython, we will say something like "By participating in this thread, you agree to whatever staff-imposed consequences may result from it." That way we can maintain the mystery, while giving people the choice to opt-in or not.)

As a result of her actions, Lana dies. The Star Wars archetype is subverted; the parent lives, and the hero child dies a sacrifice. Lana has surely always wanted a normal life, but it’s that happiness and that future that she would have to give up when she decides to save her mother and bring balance to the Force. A hero’s life is a lonely one, and she makes that sacrifice because she loves her mother. After everything Andraste has gone through, she deserves to find a way back to peace and redemption far more than Lana needs a family or a life. Lana knows that, so she makes the sacrifice needed to bring balance to the Force.

The Final Battles

Because balance of the Force is like a factory reset, the very nature of the Force has changed, hence why many people have lost their affinity towards it; they essentially have to learn a brand new Force. All Force artifacts are inert. The holocrons are dead, and all records of the Jedi and Sith contained within them are gone. But the Force is not totally balanced yet; it is in turmoil as a result of the destabilization wrought by Andraste and Lana, spreading both chaos and harmony throughout the galaxy. Lana represented the balance of the Force itself, so when she exerted her own will in the conduit, it brought the conflicting nature of the learned Force to forefront. This will be the setting of the final few weeks/months of the timeline, as the role-players determine the outcome of the war in the midst of this Force cataclysm.

After the Battle of Tython, there are more battles to fight. There are more temples and other Force nexuses across the galaxy, including on worlds such as Yavin 4, Dagobah, and Lehan. Tython was only the central one. After the destruction of the Tythonian temple, these other temples and nexuses start to go haywire. This is part of the Force being in chaos. The temples are feeding a lot of that chaotic energy, and thus need to be destroyed to help calm things down. And with the Tythonian temple gone, it is no longer possible to harness the power of the conduit, ascend, and become the will of the Force. The Sith had one shot at that through Andraste, and they lost. As a result, the power of these temples is purely destructive. If they are not destroyed, the galaxy will be ripped to shreds and every living being will die.

To destroy these temples and nexuses, the Jedi and Sith must work together. Alone, they do not have enough power. Light and dark alone cannot destroy the temples. Following the example that Lana set, only balance can destroy the temples. Light and dark must work together, as one. Also following Lana's example, the destruction of these temples and nexuses require sacrifices. One Jedi and one Sith must sacrifice their lives in order for these locations to be destroyed. Doing so represents balance within the Force, a chain of events that Lana created. This furthers the idea that Lana is not the endgame for the balance of the Force. She is the catalyst, the only one who can start it, but it is up to the galaxy to finish it. The prophecy of the Chosen One is about shuffling the deck, not resetting the board completely. And, very importantly, this prominently brings members into the story as well, and makes many people part of rebalancing the Force.

Here are some details about how that will work. If we are going to assume, with TAC and Weiss' permission, that the bulk of Jedi and Sith NPC forces lost the Force on Tython, then that adds something interesting to the PCs who go to destroy the temples. It narrows down the amount of people able to sacrifice themselves, thus making their ultimate sacrifice that much more important, and it also means that the groups going after the temples are some of the few Force users left. And indeed, the destruction of those temples and nexuses will also remove the Force from anyone there as well. Which means everyone who participates sacrifices themselves in some ways, just without everyone dying.

The staff will also effectively play the Force in these threads. Like we laid out earlier in this post, the Force is sentient. It does not want to die or be reset, in some ways. So the Jedi and Sith who go after the temples would encounter the Force as their opposition, that way it's an actual struggle. And we could say that, if they lose those battles, the Force wins. And we all know what happens if the Force wins. This ensures that the Jedi and Sith remain important, even if they're not part of the galactic war anymore, and gives them real stakes to overcome.

Because the Jedi and the Sith are contending with a cosmic war, that leaves the secular factions to fight the galactic war. The idea of having the Lana and Andraste plot end before the rest of the timeline, and the idea of the Jedi and Sith beginning to reconcile, is, partly, about wanting to give the governmental and military side of the galaxy the opportunity to determine their own futures, free from the Force wars that have defined the galaxy for thousands of years. This honors the promise we made many years ago now, that while the staff would developed the mythology, the outcome of the war was up to the entire site. So by having the Jedi and Sith focus on the temples, without battling each other, it makes the final weeks of the war solely about the Rebels, the Imperials, and the Hutts. Which is not to say that Jedi and Sith cannot participate in those at all, but it is no longer about them or their war.

The End

The end of the timeline is a period of reconciliation and understanding. First, what of Andraste? She now lives never remembering what her daughter did for her. The last thing she remembers is becoming the monster; the Empress is dead and the Padawan lives again. She remembers some of her life, and she remembers who Jhon is and their good times together, but not her daughter. Not the Empress. This is her redemption. Some might say that Andraste losing her memories cheapens her story, because it takes away the memory of everything she did. On the contrary, her redemption is about finding her way back to what she once was and what she could have been. Just because she loses the memory does not mean it takes away the pain or the unease. Her actions lessen the pain, but the reaction is that she doesn’t understand the pain. Which can be a whole lot worse; you feel awful about something but, no matter how hard you try, you cannot figure out why. As Jhon will say, “All I know is that redemption is pain and grace.” She has peace, but a painful peace. It is an empty peace that she can never fill, at least not in her mortal life.

For the rest of the galaxy, they begin the process of healing. At the end of the war, as the secular factions decide what their galactic governing structure is going to look like, the age of the Jedi and the Sith comes to an end. In order to heal the Force, the Je'daii ideas of balance must return. The remaining members of the Jedi and Sith Orders return to Tython and continue the process of reconciliation, a reconciliation made possible by the Chosen One and that started with the destruction of the temples. They must find the balance between chaos and harmony again, and keep the Force healthy and good as the Je’daii once did. They must make things right, for themselves and for the cosmic order, to fully repair that world and then, perhaps, the universe. This makes Lana and the prophecy of the Chosen One a catalyst, rather than the end itself, and allows the timeline to end ambiguously rather than with a cliche'd happy ending.

Though they cannot dream, as they have lost the Force, their children will be able to dream, as they are born into a world awash with this renewed Force. They will see flashes of a galaxy that once was, of a saga that has come to an end. This is not to inspire them to necessarily use this new Force, but to become doctors, writers, artists. People who will make the galaxy flourish again, and move beyond the wars that had nearly destroyed it time and time again.

These dreams of a new generation also lead to questions. Is it the collective memory coming back? Did it ever really die? Ultimately it does not matter. What really matters is not losing sight of the struggle. That is what redemption is, as Jhon says: pain and grace, a redemption that the galaxy must face as well. And the fact that Jhon, Kara, and others who were on Tython are still alive is important as well. They know everything that happened. Whenever they die, those memories will become part of this new Force. What will grow from the seeds planted through their eventual deaths, and the deaths of those who know the rest of galactic history? Will the souls of all those who died return? Will the Force remember itself, but remain in balance? Will that mean the Force can finally learn to be content with its natural state? Perhaps, too, if Lana became the first memory of the new Force, there can be hope. Maybe things will actually be better this time, and the Force users of Tython will keep the universe in balance.

Those are questions that cannot be answered, but that is ok too. In the end, sometimes the questions and the hope they breed are more satisfying than the answers.

In that way, these dreams are the legacy of the living memory of the galaxy. It is also a nice way of hinting at the reboot of the site itself, even with the reboot having no connection to this timeline.

Life goes on. The saga invariably continues.
 

Bee

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I wish we had more AFLs. Then we could be Sith Team Six.

@Fat Possum, where you at boo.
 

Fat Possum

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Ok.

"The staff will also effectively play the Force in these threads." Is this going to be an actual thing or just a claim that fizzles when staff interest wanes after a handful of posts?
 

Brandon Rhea

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An actual thing, since it's based on specific threads.
 

Fat Possum

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Then I wish you guys luck with it.

My biggest issue with the above content is that it's almost entirely devoid of current player characters and reads a lot like a completely inaccessible A-plot while delegating all the threads people work on to B- or C-plots that don't actually impact the stories of anyone not involved.

Naboo, for all its emphasis a few months ago, shows up exactly zero times in the wrap-up summary. Even as a tertiary story, I think the various Naboo threads greatest takeaway at this point is something to the effect of "Remember that time Kyle's character killed a lot of doods?"

There's no real mention of important events within factions or between current characters or factions. Nothing about the whole Seamus Moidin/Ebberla Daw fiasco that led to the fracturing of the already marginalized Jedi, Larik Novan's attempts to rebuild despite resistance from folks like Raydo; no mention of Geist's struggles to keep the Sith Order together; zip on the disappearance of a good chunk of Cartel leadership prior to Addipos' return and rejuvenation for the slugs. I can't knock lack of Rebellion/IAF mentions, though, they haven't done much.

It just feels like rather than being even remotely collaborative—to point of literally just involving very established, FL characters who run things and what they've been up to—it's "Hey, here's a thing that happened, react to it" and has been that way from (at least) Lana's emergence to Naboo to this. Bee and Kyle both have characters that straddle the leadership of multiple factions and even in those cases their involvement in the main story is essentially "they saw Lana and Andraste do a thing in a holovid once or twice."

Which is fine if that's what it is and nobody expects different, but it's why I'm inherently skeptical of stuff like "the staff will do..." or "characters will have the opportunity to..." because I repeatedly fail to see it.

But hey, I'm just a dood complain' about teh Star Wars fanfic at wee hours in the morning, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 

Bee

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As usual, Possum manages to put my feelings into words better than I ever could.

The more I think about the plot, the more I'm frustrated because it really feels like anything could happen ICly - the Jedi could go on a collective rampage, the Sith could decide to hold hands and embrace the power of friendship, the Rebellion could start a fast food chain - and nothing about the ending would change.

The Sith lost control of Korriban, for example. The planet is devoid of all but maybe a hundred Dark Siders. But now I have to go figure out a way to relinquish it so the plot can work, which doesn't make sense in character. Rather than the plot adapting to things that have happened ICly, we have to adapt to fit the plot, and while that isn't necessarily a bad thing, it does rub me the wrong way when the only IC involvement anyone really gets at this point is to watch NPCs do things.

From a very personal standpoint, when the timeline ends I'll have been here for two years. Not two years with a couple of breaks, not two years of not RPing, or of switching characters every six weeks - two years of consistent activity with a character who should be important to the timeline by now. And it feels like its all been for nothing. Despite my best attempts to break into the "main story" there's literally nothing I can do as a player but sit back and go, "oh well okay, that happened, I guess?" and it kind of bugs me. On the other hand, I've sort of accepted that whatever I do won't matter - and I know for a fact I'm not the only person who feels that way. Especially the folks who don't care for Force Sensitives, though they're a very small minority.

Anyway, back on track.

Other than the above, I'm still not sure I like the "Lana dies, Empress lives and feels sad" plot twist. Just because she doesn't remember doing bad things doesn't mean she isn't, you know, Space Hitler. Amnesia doesn't absolve someone of their crimes, and letting her live (and calling it redemption when she doesn't really do anything) just feels kinda bad. There's also a part that confuses me, namely how she remembers "becoming the monster" but then, "she remembers some of her life, and she remembers who Jhon is and their good times together, but not her daughter. Not the Empress." Unless monster does not mean Empress and I'm just interpreting it wrong.
 

Brandon Rhea

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Then I wish you guys luck with it.

My biggest issue with the above content is that it's almost entirely devoid of current player characters and reads a lot like a completely inaccessible A-plot while delegating all the threads people work on to B- or C-plots that don't actually impact the stories of anyone not involved.

Naboo, for all its emphasis a few months ago, shows up exactly zero times in the wrap-up summary. Even as a tertiary story, I think the various Naboo threads greatest takeaway at this point is something to the effect of "Remember that time Kyle's character killed a lot of doods?"

There's no real mention of important events within factions or between current characters or factions. Nothing about the whole Seamus Moidin/Ebberla Daw fiasco that led to the fracturing of the already marginalized Jedi, Larik Novan's attempts to rebuild despite resistance from folks like Raydo; no mention of Geist's struggles to keep the Sith Order together; zip on the disappearance of a good chunk of Cartel leadership prior to Addipos' return and rejuvenation for the slugs. I can't knock lack of Rebellion/IAF mentions, though, they haven't done much.

It just feels like rather than being even remotely collaborative—to point of literally just involving very established, FL characters who run things and what they've been up to—it's "Hey, here's a thing that happened, react to it" and has been that way from (at least) Lana's emergence to Naboo to this. Bee and Kyle both have characters that straddle the leadership of multiple factions and even in those cases their involvement in the main story is essentially "they saw Lana and Andraste do a thing in a holovid once or twice."

Which is fine if that's what it is and nobody expects different, but it's why I'm inherently skeptical of stuff like "the staff will do..." or "characters will have the opportunity to..." because I repeatedly fail to see it.

But hey, I'm just a dood complain' about teh Star Wars fanfic at wee hours in the morning, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
To be clear, you do realize this isn't a public write up, correct? This isn't meant to be posted in public. It's very deliberately written with a singular focus because all it's meant to do is show the site's leadership - staff, FLs, and AFLs - what the end of the mythology is going to be.

The ending is also set up to where there's 2 full months of the continued war after the Battle of Tython. We intend to end the Lana plot on September 18th, and then we intend to end the timeline on November 18th. So that's two full months of Rebels, Hutts, and Imperials duking it out to decide who the winner is. We don't decide that. There's also two full months of the temple destruction and what not.

We've never hidden the fact that the staff directs the mythology plot. The war plot is everyone's domain, and that's where everything you talked about -- other people doing awesome things -- comes into play. It just wasn't the focus of a post about the end of the mythology.
 

Brandon Rhea

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From a very personal standpoint, when the timeline ends I'll have been here for two years. Not two years with a couple of breaks, not two years of not RPing, or of switching characters every six weeks - two years of consistent activity with a character who should be important to the timeline by now. And it feels like its all been for nothing. Despite my best attempts to break into the "main story" there's literally nothing I can do as a player but sit back and go, "oh well okay, that happened, I guess?" and it kind of bugs me. On the other hand, I've sort of accepted that whatever I do won't matter - and I know for a fact I'm not the only person who feels that way. Especially the folks who don't care for Force Sensitives, though they're a very small minority.

I'm not saying we've been perfect about bringing people into the mythology, but that's what the ending is designed to do. I know there will be some skepticism there, but it's not about player reaction, it's about player involvement. And people should always feel involved in the actual war, and if they don't then that's something that should be brought to the attention of the FLs. Because we've always made this crystal clear -- the staff will work on the mythology, but the FLs and the factions get to run the table on the war. They're connected in some ways, but the war has never been staff directed and the war is the main plot. The Legacies plot is just the mythology behind it.

Other than the above, I'm still not sure I like the "Lana dies, Empress lives and feels sad" plot twist. Just because she doesn't remember doing bad things doesn't mean she isn't, you know, Space Hitler. Amnesia doesn't absolve someone of their crimes, and letting her live (and calling it redemption when she doesn't really do anything) just feels kinda bad. There's also a part that confuses me, namely how she remembers "becoming the monster" but then, "she remembers some of her life, and she remembers who Jhon is and their good times together, but not her daughter. Not the Empress." Unless monster does not mean Empress and I'm just interpreting it wrong.

Couple of points.
1. I agree with you about how "just because she doesn't remember doing bad things doesn't mean she isn't, you know, Space Hitler." That's entirely the point. Because...
2. Andraste is not absolved of her crimes, nor is she actually redeemed. Redemption is something she has to seek her entire life. Will she ever find it? Who knows. But that's not a question we answer. That's one of those things where I've said ending with some ambiguity is important. So Andraste's life becomes one in search of redemption.
3. She remembers becoming the monster in that she remembers what led her to becoming the evil Empress. There was a specific moment on Lehon, in a thread called "Where Flowers Bloom, So Does Hope." She thought Lana was dead, and she flew into a rage that allowed the darkness that was always inside her to fully consume her. She remembers thinking Lana died and she remembers being consumed with rage, because that's the last thing that happened to the (relatively) good Andraste. She doesn't remember what comes next.

I understand the skepticism from you two, since our last major Legacies thread was just something people could react to, but that's not meant to be the norm. In fact, the original plan for all of that was having people write a pretty sprawling storyline about the mission to reveal the Skywalker secrets. We brought in 20 people to write that thread and you know how many people actually did anything? Like, three. We had to cancel it, and we went with the "ok everyone react" as a back up plan.

So we intend to really make sure that the ending is as interactive as possible, and that everyone can be involved and everyone can feel that they've made an impact towards the end of the mythology and the war.
 

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In regards to the lack of details of the war such as Naboo, the Cartel, etc. in the write-up is because it's not focusing on the entire tiemline's ending. The title is slightly a misnomer; a closer title would be "End of the Force Wars in the Timeline". This does not end the Third Galactic Civil War. The Jedi schism isn't mentioned because it flows more in the TGCW than the Force War.

Korriban isn't an issue. In fact, it works better that it's under the control of the Coterie. The Coterie would allow the Scooby Gang to reach the temple on Korriban without being attacked, which would have been more difficult to do were the main Sith Order controlling the planet. The Sith that are engaging in the Battle of Tython-Korriban are the contingent guarding Andraste while she engages the conduit (if memory serves). The Jedi are assaulting Tython in order to stop the empress.
 

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In regards to the lack of details of the war such as Naboo, the Cartel, etc. in the write-up is because it's not focusing on the entire tiemline's ending. The title is slightly a misnomer; a closer title would be "End of the Force Wars in the Timeline".

Good call. Fair point.
 

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First, thanks for addressing my concerns. I think they’re valid issues, but I understand that it can come off as unnecessarily whiny or spiteful.

Second, I figured it was a preview of what will eventually be a public post and that there wouldn’t be any hugely substantive changes. I also think Weiss’ suggestion of changing the name to something more focused like “The End of the Force Wars” compared to “The End of the Timeline” is a really good one.

Overall, with that narrow focus, I think it’s fine and good. But I still think the whole thing simply highlights the admin focus on something very narrow and unrelated to most of what the “regular folk” have been up to. There’s been a lot about Lana, Andraste, and the “Force as a sentient character,” but nobody’s addressed things like ‘has it been 1023 ABY for three years?’ or changes in faction territories or things of the more basic, functioning administrative level.

I know Brandon and staff tried to bring people into the Lana thing on that collaborative effort and that it didn’t really take off, but I think a lot of that is because it is just so unrelated to their own individual stories and characters.

It’s fine if staff want to do the higher-concept, “Great Man theory” of storyline progression, but I don’t think it’s fine to have staff focus only on that while leaving the actual mundane management to Faction Leaders whose authority is really limited to their internal factions.

I know Weiss has been really, really good with trying to compile things from the roleplay into a singular semi-coherent narrative and now that he’s an admin maybe that’s possible, but I feel like the story/site really need more active staff involved with actually shaping the story as it effects 90% of the people participating on the site.
 

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First, thanks for addressing my concerns. I think they’re valid issues, but I understand that it can come off as unnecessarily whiny or spiteful.

Doesn't seem whiny or spiteful at all. It's all good.

Second, I figured it was a preview of what will eventually be a public post and that there wouldn’t be any hugely substantive changes. I also think Weiss’ suggestion of changing the name to something more focused like “The End of the Force Wars” compared to “The End of the Timeline” is a really good one.

Yeah, we won't be releasing this post in public. The story will unfold as it normally would, rather than us saying ahead of time what it is. This is purely for the benefit of staff and faction leaderships.

Overall, with that narrow focus, I think it’s fine and good. But I still think the whole thing simply highlights the admin focus on something very narrow and unrelated to most of what the “regular folk” have been up to. There’s been a lot about Lana, Andraste, and the “Force as a sentient character,” but nobody’s addressed things like ‘has it been 1023 ABY for three years?’ or changes in faction territories or things of the more basic, functioning administrative level.

I would say two things in response to that.

1. Who cares what year it is? I don't mean to sound like a dick when I say that, but that's not something I really care about, and it's never something we've been proactive about in any timeline. I wouldn't treat that as being indicative of anything other than the year being superfluous.

2. The faction territories really haven't changed, and that's a faction problem, not a staff problem. The map isn't going to change if territories don't actually change. To the best of our knowledge, the map reflects the current state of the galaxy. But once the republic is formally declared in-universe, THAT is when you will see map changes, and we've already mapped out those changes. They will be released once the in-universe part has happened.

I know Brandon and staff tried to bring people into the Lana thing on that collaborative effort and that it didn’t really take off, but I think a lot of that is because it is just so unrelated to their own individual stories and characters.

It was also laziness, quite frankly. I was there in the Skype chats about it. No one was talking about how it was because it was too disconnected to their characters. People have always seemed to like the idea of participation more than they actually like participating. Which I understand, but that doesn't mean it becomes the fault of the staff.

And if that's what they really thought, they should have said so. Anyone who works with me extensively on this site knows this: people saying one thing and thinking another is epidemic on this site, and I have zero sympathy for people who lie about what they think. I know that sounds harsh, but I've been dealing with that for years. I can only go based on what people actually say, not what they may complain about behind the scenes.

It’s fine if staff want to do the higher-concept, “Great Man theory” of storyline progression, but I don’t think it’s fine to have staff focus only on that while leaving the actual mundane management to Faction Leaders whose authority is really limited to their internal factions.

I know Weiss has been really, really good with trying to compile things from the roleplay into a singular semi-coherent narrative and now that he’s an admin maybe that’s possible, but I feel like the story/site really need more active staff involved with actually shaping the story as it effects 90% of the people participating on the site.

What's interesting about this is that most people would, at least publicly, disagree with you. In the long history of this site, one of the constant points of view has been that people don't want the staff involved in the war story. So we have always stayed relatively hands off, and one of my goals for the next timeline is that members and factions are even more empowered do things on their own. I don't expect there to be a mythology again -- this was unique to Star Wars Legacies -- and I don't expect the staff to really control things. We can surely be involved, and indeed we are involved -- the FLs are always talking to the admins and bouncing ideas off of us, including Weiss who has always been great about that -- but we're not going to direct it. The problem we encounter is that many FLs over the last few years love to talk about their ideas, but they don't execute those ideas. With a few exceptions, ever since the time skip nearly two years ago, most of the FLs we've had have, quite frankly, been terrible (and I count myself among them as Rebel FL).

So there are a lot more layers to this sort of issue than just what you may see on the surface.
 

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1. Who cares what year it is? I don't mean to sound like a dick when I say that, but that's not something I really care about, and it's never something we've been proactive about in any timeline. I wouldn't treat that as being indicative of anything other than the year being superfluous.

I think active players do. It provides a relatively easy framework and structure to help progress the story along. The fact that the site expressly says that “from 2011 to 2013, we wrote the first part of the story. It took place from 1,011 to 1,013 ABY” and that the site plot is narratively explained within the context of various dates indicates that dates aren’t completely irrelevant.

When you have only a handful of “important” threads or plot points, no, you don’t need dates. The original trilogy doesn’t have dates, and the Lana > Andraste> Force Dies plot doesn’t have dates. But when you have literally hundreds of plots and events—some pretty big—it helps to have some sort of system.

I understand that people being able to age characters up or down as they like necessitates flexibility, but completely ignoring a broad “administrative” function comes off, to me personally, as either indifference or laziness. Again, somewhat similar to the whole “our stuff matters, your stuff does not” vibe.

It also gives people context of what’s been going on. Like I said, it doesn’t have to be detailed at all. Just super basic listing of major events in a given period, presumably determined by staff/FLs. Because otherwise the simple lack of a chronology or forward progression of the timeline furthers the notion that everyone is writing their own individual stories and that collaboration is relegated because people don't even share the same inexorable forward movement of time progressing.

2. The faction territories really haven't changed, and that's a faction problem, not a staff problem. The map isn't going to change if territories don't actually change. To the best of our knowledge, the map reflects the current state of the galaxy. But once the republic is formally declared in-universe, THAT is when you will see map changes, and we've already mapped out those changes. They will be released once the in-universe part has happened.

I don’t think the staff are entirely blameless on this. I know for a fact the Jedi and Hutts ran mission arcs on independent planets, presumably to bring allies or increase their territory. Not being an FL/staff I can’t speak to the process required, but I never saw any shifts reflective of the actual roleplaying people were doing.

Beating the dead horse of "more staff involvement plz," I think more proactive and involved staff could have better encouraged or explored opportunities for change with FLs rather than just waiting for FLs/members to sort it all out themselves.

What's interesting about this is that most people would, at least publicly, disagree with you. In the long history of this site, one of the constant points of view has been that people don't want the staff involved in the war story. So we have always stayed relatively hands off…

Definitely true, but you literally just said that “People have always seemed to like the idea of participation more than they actually like participating,” which I also agree with.

Which is why things like the Pax/Sisk jailbreak or the Fondor battle seem to inevitably become argumentative clusterfucks that require admin rulings anyway. When members, who generally have character/pride/whatever stakes in the game are asked to competitively reach a conclusion, things seem to stall almost from the start. Especially if there’s a lot more than just individual PCs involved. 1v1 or 2v2 fights seem to go relatively fine, even in death threads.

But when you talk larger scale stuff, stuff that would impact the galaxy territories map, it becomes seemingly impossible to put a handful of people from opposing sides into a thread, have them write out combative fiction, and then decide who wins. It is very, very hard to treat literary roleplaying like it were Risk, a videogame, or a simulation. People see things like Fondor and shrug and say “screw it, why put myself through that?”

On the other hand, Naboo had a predetermined outcome but like 5 pretty popular threads with player deaths and various story advancements. The only knock on Naboo is that there was never an administrative conclusion. It was set up wonderfully, but left to hang.

Which again I think loops back to the whole staff involvement in the war story. There are plenty of instances, like Hapes and Bothawui, where options are removed administratively for reasons that nobody sees on the surface, so it's not unprecedented for the staff to be involved, and potentially a lot less arbitrarily than they have been up to this point.

I think it would be helpful if there was a resource to help FLs work together to do more than have small fights between factions or, more usually, self-contained stories that, when combined with things like lack of a timeline or a broad, story facilitator, don’t really mean much.

I would genuinely be surprised if there was a poll asking if people wanted some sort of staff storyline “coordinator” and people said “no screw that, things have been working wonderfully when the onus is on us to do things way beyond our authority.”


---


Literally just now in the Hutt chat, AS IF BY GLORIOUS PROVIDENCE:
[6:07:37 PM] Ilan Leyacourt: does anyone know what year the timeline currently is in?
 

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Chiming in with a semi-serious question here: after the Force goes crazy, does that mean Force Ghosts are no longer a thing?
 

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In regards to the date, there never was any official announcement of a year change or anything. It was pretty much the time skip approaching and people going "it's probably about 1013 right now". Admins didn't declare the year. Time is a fickle creature on this site as people interpret how long everything is. For example, Sisk Renelo the writer stated his character had been locked up in the prison Reckoning for three years while another participate in his rescue thread had it only a few months.
 

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That sounds counterproductive to collaborative storytelling, though, because even the simple question of "What year is it?" -- which people do legitimately ask -- becomes a shrug and it makes it harder to place things in content.

It just gets very hippie New Math when everyone decides what year it is. It isn't just people just aging their characters, it's people providing infinite alternatives to a single narrative, and thus there is no narrative. So then the only lasting narrative is decided not by the people roleplaying, but by the admins (and maybe rarely the FLs) dictating events.
 

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I think active players do. It provides a relatively easy framework and structure to help progress the story along. The fact that the site expressly says that “from 2011 to 2013, we wrote the first part of the story. It took place from 1,011 to 1,013 ABY” and that the site plot is narratively explained within the context of various dates indicates that dates aren’t completely irrelevant.

When you have only a handful of “important” threads or plot points, no, you don’t need dates. The original trilogy doesn’t have dates, and the Lana > Andraste> Force Dies plot doesn’t have dates. But when you have literally hundreds of plots and events—some pretty big—it helps to have some sort of system.

I understand that people being able to age characters up or down as they like necessitates flexibility, but completely ignoring a broad “administrative” function comes off, to me personally, as either indifference or laziness. Again, somewhat similar to the whole “our stuff matters, your stuff does not” vibe.

It also gives people context of what’s been going on. Like I said, it doesn’t have to be detailed at all. Just super basic listing of major events in a given period, presumably determined by staff/FLs. Because otherwise the simple lack of a chronology or forward progression of the timeline furthers the notion that everyone is writing their own individual stories and that collaboration is relegated because people don't even share the same inexorable forward movement of time progressing.

I disagree that it's important, but to each their own I suppose.

I don’t think the staff are entirely blameless on this. I know for a fact the Jedi and Hutts ran mission arcs on independent planets, presumably to bring allies or increase their territory. Not being an FL/staff I can’t speak to the process required, but I never saw any shifts reflective of the actual roleplaying people were doing.

Beating the dead horse of "more staff involvement plz," I think more proactive and involved staff could have better encouraged or explored opportunities for change with FLs rather than just waiting for FLs/members to sort it all out themselves.

If the Jedi and Hutts have changed territories to the point that it necessitates changes on the map, then I know of no clear instance when that has been communicated to us. We're not omniscient.

Definitely true, but you literally just said that “People have always seemed to like the idea of participation more than they actually like participating,” which I also agree with.

Which is why things like the Pax/Sisk jailbreak or the Fondor battle seem to inevitably become argumentative clusterfucks that require admin rulings anyway. When members, who generally have character/pride/whatever stakes in the game are asked to competitively reach a conclusion, things seem to stall almost from the start. Especially if there’s a lot more than just individual PCs involved. 1v1 or 2v2 fights seem to go relatively fine, even in death threads.

But when you talk larger scale stuff, stuff that would impact the galaxy territories map, it becomes seemingly impossible to put a handful of people from opposing sides into a thread, have them write out combative fiction, and then decide who wins. It is very, very hard to treat literary roleplaying like it were Risk, a videogame, or a simulation. People see things like Fondor and shrug and say “screw it, why put myself through that?”

On the other hand, Naboo had a predetermined outcome but like 5 pretty popular threads with player deaths and various story advancements. The only knock on Naboo is that there was never an administrative conclusion. It was set up wonderfully, but left to hang.

Which again I think loops back to the whole staff involvement in the war story. There are plenty of instances, like Hapes and Bothawui, where options are removed administratively for reasons that nobody sees on the surface, so it's not unprecedented for the staff to be involved, and potentially a lot less arbitrarily than they have been up to this point.

I think it would be helpful if there was a resource to help FLs work together to do more than have small fights between factions or, more usually, self-contained stories that, when combined with things like lack of a timeline or a broad, story facilitator, don’t really mean much.

I would genuinely be surprised if there was a poll asking if people wanted some sort of staff storyline “coordinator” and people said “no screw that, things have been working wonderfully when the onus is on us to do things way beyond our authority.”

I actually don't think Naboo was all that successful, which was disappointing to me because that was a story I had in my head for about a year. When you actually look at the number of posts that were made in each Naboo thread, the engagement we had on it was rather limited. Whereas people have always seemed more motivated when FLs have lit a fire under everyone and there's been at least somewhat of a competitive undercurrent. We don't want people focusing on winning as being the paramount objective, but that organic competitive nature has proven to be the most effective impetus in moving the plot forward throughout this timeline.

Dedicated and motivated faction leaders have always been better than the staff at driving the war plot forward. Always. But I can understand why, from your perspective, it might seem different. You joined after the time skip, so your frame of reference is post-peak activity for this timeline. The best amount of activity we had in this timeline was when the FLs, not the staff, were really motivating people to move forward. From a purely activity standpoint, the pre-time skip part of this timeline was more successful than post-time skip.
 
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