Guns and Armor made simple.

[Xyrael]

Xy: That's generally been my thesis as well.

As far as how long it would take to disintegrate a bullet? Well, according to my model (and all caveats apply), a lightsaber generates 4.6 million Kelvin of heat per second. So a very small fraction of a second would be enough to disintegrate most materials. Problem is that bullets travel far faster than even that.

Interesting and this seems to fit what lightsabers are the best. Glad to see someone else is fascinated by accurate scientific explanations on this forum, instead of being worried about it. I always figured that if you look at the effects of the saber you can use inductive reasoning to apply the science and get something that works. People are so scared of inductive reasoning nowadays :(

 

[Rev]

Interesting and this seems to fit what lightsabers are the best. Glad to see someone else is fascinated by accurate scientific explanations on this forum, instead of being worried about it. I always figured that if you look at the effects of the saber you can use inductive reasoning to apply the science and get something that works. People are so scared of inductive reasoning nowadays :(

I saw a big write-up on how even if Vader's breathing apparatus and all of that good stuff worked after Palpatine lit him up with Lightning that he couldn't have survived.

They went into pretty vast detail about the prosthetics, electricity, the electronics themselves, and even took still shots of what Vader's skeleton looked like when he is shocked.

Was pretty interesting read to say the least. If you look at Episode 1 and see how the saber is burning through the durasteel door that the Trade Federation diplomats are behind. It turns that steel to molten in a matter of seconds, I feel if it could burn through solid steel it could melt lead even quicker. Not sure the science behind it, but to my knowledge it takes more heat to melt steel than it does lead.

 

[BLADE]

It does. Around 1700 K.

Anyhow, I should hasten to add that a lightsaber emits 4.6 million K/second for a tungsten bullet of relatively high mass. Lighter bullets of less heat resistant metals would actually have greater heat transfer rates, but presumably would be faster/harder to block.

Anyhow, simply for information's sake, I'll quote my previous calculations:

Spoiler: Lightsaber Heat Calcs vs Tungsten Bullet

I would just like to address the issue of bullets vs lightsabers very quickly. Not to geek out, but Nite's presumption is in my view, relatively unsupported by canon evidence. The notion of a lightsaber having some sort of Nuclear Disrupting Force (NDF effect) is unlikely. All the visual evidence points to lightsabers having a thermal effect. Of course, this brings up some issues (I generally subscribe to the plasma blade theory, since while it would have massive power requirements, this is SW and the universe can do plausible massive power requirements) like how the lightsaber doesn't burn people through its thermal effects (arguably all three: radiation, conduction, convection.) My pet theory is that there's some sort of magnetic lock on the lightsaber which only "unlatches" and allows it to become potentially lethal when making contact with something else. This would explain how non Jedi/Sith/etc. can use sabers, but would proscribe certain maneuvers (like cutting through a blast door using a lightsaber without Force-based protection.)

In any case, for durasteel, I assume properties relatively similar to tungsten, but with a higher melting point (around 6,000 K) and some other properties irrelevant to this particular debate but necessary to make it conformable with SW engineering standards. Anyhow, since lightsabers can cut through durasteel (and melt but not evaporate it) I would assume a lightsaber temperature of 8000K.

Now let's assume it is trying to block a tungsten bullet (since that is the element most commonly mentioned here.)

Rate = k•A•(T1 - T2)/d

Where k is the thermal conductivity constant (173 in the case of tungsten) A is the area of a cylindrical bullet (2pi*rsquared+2pi*h) with radius being 1.25 cm and h being 10 cm. T1 and T2 are the temperatures of the lightsaber and bullet respectively. I am assuming 350 K for the bullet based on the thermal loss bullets experience once fired from the muzzle all over the distance which the bullet must travel through the lightsaber (15 cm.)

Plugging the values in:

173 * (2pi*2.25+2pi(1.25)*10)

(173 * 92.7 * (7650 K))/.15

Which gives us ~820 million watts or 820 million joules per second.

Dividing by the mass of the bullet (volume*density or pi*rsquared*h *19.25) 602,000.

Taking the specific heat capacity of tungsten (.13) and dividing...

~4.6 million K per second.

Of course, that elides the speed at which the bullet will be traveling (I would assume 1500 m/s at most ranges of engagement considering SW tech.)

Time = Distance/Speed (ignoring friction since I'm lazy.)

=

.15 m/1500 m/s

.0001 seconds.

.0001 seconds * 4.6 million K/second

Or 460 K

Plus the original temperature (350K)

810 K total for a tungsten bullet. Mind you, it could be a steel bullet and it still wouldn't be near melting let alone evaporation temp.

In other words, bullets are indeed quite an effective counter-measure against lightsabers.

/Power of PHYSICS!

 

[Icaro]

Mini nuke all the things

 

[Orphen]

Icaro = does things by half measures

NUKE all the things!

 

[Neo Shark]

Pfft, you guys aren't trying hard enough. Just divide by zero.

 

[Phil]

I'd like to point out, that this post and this responding post proves Sniper Rifles are not useless. Granted, it didn't kill her but did some good harm.

:CSly

 

[Indou Selprin]

I'd like to point out, that this post and this responding post proves Sniper Rifles are not useless. Granted, it didn't kill her but did some good harm.

:CSly

Of course, you did almost get blasted into oblivion as a result.

 

[Neo Shark]

I'd like to point out, that this post and this responding post proves Sniper Rifles are not useless. Granted, it didn't kill her but did some good harm.

:CSly

If she had been focused on you instead of the Force User, she would have had plenty of time to react. The main problem with sniping is that you need a stable platform to shoot from, time, and surprise. You need time setup your weapon and position, and time to line up your shot. The other problem with sniping is that you switch to a tunnel vision, so anything around you can get the drop on you easily. A sniper rifle is an assassin's weapon, it's meant to kill from such a distance that whomever you're shooting at won't be able to respond. Something that would be more useful is a DMR, something with range, but the ability to put more bullets down range than a sniper can.

Edit: Actually, the first thing that comes to mind is the Raptor from ME3.

 

[Phil]

Point still stands. Given the right circumstances and all, it can be useful.

 

[Praetor]

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THIS! Another thing you should try to mention is the types of materials used such as plasteel or cortosis (which I'm pretty sure is banned). But that would be cool if you could write a quick thing about that. If you're up to it then check this out! Again thanks for this, it will really help with my future characters. :CHappy

 

[SNAFU]

Just something I'd thought I'd add about the Lightsabers....

If you're looking for something to use against Jedi, Why not Conc rifles? The bullets explode on contact with...just about anything really...but I think they have a capacity of 1 bullet? and I know they have pretty high recoil. Now Correct me if I'm wrong here, but is the policy on weapons like "Make it up and if it's too OP we'll let you know"? I mean who's to say 1000 years in the future some guy didn't make a conc rifle that could hold 20 bullets?



A couple things I'd like to add on to his list though. I know I'm new, but I enjoy thinking about this. I'm a gun nut.

When choosing your weapon, I know it's hard to resist falling into "The Rule of Cool" but also think about practicality. What does your character do? For example: My character is gonna be a pirate and hijack ships. Now, in the confines of a ship you don't have alot of room to maneuver, so I'd pick something like sub machine guns, carbines, shotguns, conc rifles, etc

I mean, it wouldn't be practical for him to carry sniper rifles.


#5.....actually they are an offensive weapon.

I'll give you an example here....If you're in a spider hole, or behind a bulletproof barrier, I'm gonna lob a grenade over that and see how far you get before that 2 second fuse goes off, and you get your backside peppered with shrapnel.

Speaking of fuses, it's an estimated 2 seconds, for the M2 Frag grenade. In the heat and noise of battle if you manage to locate, pick up, and throw that grenade far enough, and accurately enough to hit the guy who threw it...Well...uhm, you're not from Krypton are you?

#2: ....so wait, I can't have a Lightsaber chain saw? .....Damn.


With the bayonets....They're still effective. Very effective. Not in a bayonet charge kinda way, but if you're out of ammo...and the enemy is right on top of you...guess what time it is? I mean sure, you could attempt to kill him with your hands, or with your combat knife, but who's to say that he's not a better fighter than you? Bash, stab, slash. Move on to his buddy.

...but if you're in that scenario and nobody's called for close air you're dead anyways.


With Slugthrowers...Modern armor kinda rendered them obsolete. I mean unless it's a rail cannon (See Clone Wars) It might knock say...a Stormtrooper down, but he'll get back up with a few bruised ribs. As for it being invisible, I think the Xerrol Night Stinger uses a gas mix that makes Invisible Bolts.


anyways, Thought I'd put in. (Don't hurt me.)

 

[Jiang Winters]

I'll [try] to respond to this in-depth later, but for now, a fun tidbit about slugthrowers!

The Dressallians used slugthrowers to great effect against Stormtroopers in the defense of their homeworld. [One of the SW technical manuals refers to this in the Slugthrower article. I have to find the book again, but I have it here somewhere.] You're correct in that standard ball or hollow-point ammunition, which most civilians would have easy access to, would be ineffective. Even real-world body armor will stop a hunting rifle round dead in its tracks, courtesy of the new class IV trauma plates.

But when used with armor-defeating ammunition, such as a tungsten-cored AP round or a saboted light armor penetrator [SLAP for short] most traditional slugthrowers become highly effective and are more than capable of tearing apart heavily armored infantry. Their only major drawback is the weight of their ammunition. Plus, as they're kinetic weapons rather than energy weapons, they still have a chance to kill through sheer kinetic force even if a soldier's armor stops the round itself. Pepper someone in power armor with enough fast-moving heavy projectiles, and he'll go down from internal trauma alone.

/spins like a top

 

[Silverface]

Pepper someone in power armor with enough fast-moving heavy projectiles, and he'll go down from internal trauma alone.

Unless you're a Space Marine, but that's 40k and not Star Wars. End of the day, all weapon types in Star Wars are still effective at what they do, which is make someone stop living.



Flamethrowers are still the best weapons against Jedi/Sith though.

 

[Skyway]

Slugthrowers;Flamethrowers:
All weapons do what they do. Slugthrowers are not good vs armor but it will kick the person in armor back with impact. Slugthrowers are good vs lightsaber cuz they dont reflect back. Slugthrowers shotgun works very good at lightsaber cant block all of the shots. Flamethrowers work good on anyone really. Though jedi/sith can stop it easier if they good with force power Pyrokinesis. Flamethrowers in water wont work but a Sonic blaster will. :)

 

[BLADE]

Flamethrowers are still the best weapons against Jedi/Sith though.

Depends on the context.

 

[Phil]

Flamethrowers are also good at weddings and child orphanages.


I miss Ruukil.

Sometimes.

 

[Orphen]

Flame throwers also have no - little kinetic force to them. A jedi could quite easily just use telekinesis to part the air, and render any heat - energy transmission weapon completely ineffective by making a vaccum

 

[Green Ranger]

 

[Rev]