Gunslinging!

Green Ranger

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Okay, so this has...sorta been an ongoing thing in terms of OOC discussions, even in the old timeline, so I wanted to make a thread about using ranged weapons like blasters, slugthrowers and the like, sort of gather everyone's thoughts on the matter and create an open dialogue and discussion on it. I figured since this is a topic where the overlying idea seems to be 'guns < everything else', I'd start with something of a...less informal guide based around my own thoughts and perceptions and we can go from there.

Now, as many of you probably know, I don't really do gunslingers. It's not that I'm not interested in blasters or non-Force Users, but even before I joined this site I've had had a very....magic-heavy preference when it comes to writing and RPing. It's not that I don't like your Han Solo type characters, it's just that I'm not very good - or not very motivated at least - to write them myself since it's not exactly my preferred area.

That said, I've seen a lot of people use them, and I've read a lot of RPs involving them, and I've also seen a lot of instances where a blaster-using character can, in fact, get the upper hand. So I want to share my thoughts on what works and what doesn't.

1) Loadout: Now, I'm mentioning this first not because it's the most important part of playing a ranged character, but because I think that a majority of players believe that it's the most important thing. Having fancy write-ups and a bunch of crazy tech might seem like the way to win, but a lot of that perception was created last timeline under vastly different tech guidelines where, admittedly, we allowed tech to have unfair advantages. So, I mean, that's on the staff and we take full responsibility for creating that notion, but even under those circumstances I think tech could be extremely limiting.

One thing I've noticed especially is that with this trend of more = better in regards to tech, to justify being able to survive, is that it'll probably end up costing you in the long run when you go up against a truly capable or ruthless RPer. If you've got tech write-ups detailing your character down to the most efficient size of their codpiece for minimal chafing, then you're actually confined in your writing by the massive amount of detail in that tech, because a a nitpicky enough opponent will eventually be able to find a million reasons why you can't do all sorts of things because of the tech you're using. This is especially true for armor. Think about it - a Jedi gets into close quarters with you and you're wearing 30-odd kilos of Mandalorian Armor. Suddenly that combat roll you tried to do to get out of the way isn't going to be quite so fluid, quite so snappy and dextrous, as you initially thought. So suddenly you're performing an action that's considered unreasonable, and you have to reconsider your post.

So what just happened there is that the tech you spent hours writing up actually prevented you from performing an action in RP, and your opponent will capitalize on that flaw to push you, or they'll realize that maybe your other tech write-ups have similar flaws to exploit, and just like that, you're having to be super careful about your actions in every round of combat.

So what's the solution? Less is more. If you pitch a character with fifteen tech write-ups (or a highly complicated set of armor) against someone who has, say a couple of generic blasters, a single piece of exotic tech and maybe a couple of generic grenades? Assuming that these competitors have the same writing skill, my money's always going to be on the character with less stuff. Not only because they have fewer obvious and easily exploitable flaws, but also because they have more freedom per post, and more familiarity with the tech that they have. In other words, they'll use their stuff more cleverly. And clever writing is always going to win in freeform. So my advice is to go for less. Much less. And if you're equipping yourself with generic weapons, then all the better. You're actually giving your opponent less material to exploit if you keep your loadout simple.

2) Tactics: If there's one thing that bugs me about blaster users, it's that the underlying tactic seems to follow somewhat along the lines of 1) Take lightsaber to the groin, 2) Shake it off, 3) Shoot at person, 4) enjoy your childless future. And the biggest problem with such a tactical approach is that you've just completely taken the major advantage of using a blaster - range - out of the equation. For example, you know what's better than having your reproductive organs irreversibly damaged?

Getting. Out. Of. The. Way.

And sorry to be so abrupt about it, but really, it's a thing. Because in freeform, avoiding being hit is a much better solution, and a much easier defense, than trying to tank through an attack - especially for a ranged user. They have the disadvantage of having to close up into melee range in order to give you third degree burns, so use that weakness. Get out of the way, then get the hell away from the glowing sword of death and sexless futures.

Of course, if you're deadset on trying to muscle your way through plasma burning a hole through your nether regions, then go back to your loadout and equip yourself appropriately. A blaster with an effective range of 300m and a 12x zoom scope is going to be utterly useless in a situation like this - use a shotgun. Or maybe have a bracer made of phrik so you can try and brawl them off you or catch them off-guard. Generally in my experience it still doesn't end well, but if you're going to gear yourself up, and organize your tactics and strategies in a fight, around that kind of close-quarters combat, then make sure that you have the appropriate equipment and stick to it.

Also remember this: Sometimes, aiming to kill your opponent isn't the best way to defeat them. Jedi are a great example. Keep them running and trying to catch up to you, or trying to fling Force Powers to remove the range advantage, and they're both a) distracted, so you can flank them and break their defences, or b) tire them out and win by playing the long game. If in two weeks of a PvP battle thread, you don't have a single mark on you but you've exhausted your JEdi opponent, who do you think the admins will determine is the victor, after all? And that's assuming it even goes to a ruling - you could have tired them out well before then. So it's not about getting the finishing blow or the ultimate tactical advantage - sometimes, just plain wearing your enemy out is all the advantage you need.

Anyway, those are my thoughts for now. Feel free to give your own input on the subject!
 
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Outlander

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Ah, Yes. I too enjoy damage control.

I'm kidding of course. Good article. I'll try to put some actual non-sarcastic thoughts down here tomorrow.
 

Kiro

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Yeah, this is pretty good, Boli. I don't see anything I can really argue with, and I was one of the worst offenders when it came to making frankly ridiculously OP tech in the last timeline. I'm trying to veer away from that in this timeline. But yes, range is the non-FS best option. If you get into melee, you're usually screwed. You have explosives, mines, repeaters, etc. to use while you're at range as well. Up close? Nope, Jedi/Sith is gonna take out their "I WIN" bat and turn you into sashimi. Even if you're a master swordsman, the Jedi still have the upper hand with things like Force Speed and enhanced acrobatics.
 

Green Ranger

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I mean, if you want to go mono e mono in a swordfight, then again that boils down to writing skill since you're on fairly equal footing in terms of writing circumstances, so it's actually a more efficient equalizer than sticking with a blaster.

But that's another thing entirely. Mostly I just wanted to create a dialogue to dispel the myth that ranged weapons = lose, and also to talk about how the whole 'more tech = better' thing is flawed.
 

Livgardist

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Really, really great post.

Because of my character, Jaron, who is supposed to be very knowledgeable in fighting Force users, I've been thinking long and hard on how a non-FS can fight them. I came up with something I like to call a "layered principle" of fighting. Basically, though, it involves tech. It hasn't been tried in a thread yet, but it revolves around putting more and more layers of distraction on your opponent, until they are so distracted they can't fight you at all. For example, you start by pepper spraying them. Then, maybe you light their clothes on fire, or you shoot a hot pipe and give them third degree steam burns, or you fill the room with steam so they can't see you. (Things that distract them, things they must use the Force to compensate for). Then you move, and keep them moving. Now, they're in pain, their eyes, nostrils, sinuses, even lungs hurt, and they have to use the Force to sustain themselves, as opposed to using it on you.

Now you move in for the kill.

From a distance, if you can. Up close if you have to. You've prepared the meal by exhausting and distracting your enemy, and now you cook the bastard.

And of course, only ever engage them on your own terms if you can. :cool:
 

Kiro

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Pepper spraying involves you being pretty close to them though, so that's rather risky.

And they can't use the Force to compensate for distractions. The current timeline's rules regarding the Force is that you need to concentrate pretty hard in order to accomplish pretty much anything with the Force. So it's a good theory, you're basically preventing them from using their one big advantage against you.
 

Green Ranger

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Yeah, layering on multiple levels is definitely a viable tactic against Force users given the new rules. A Force user can't just multitask their way through everything anymore, so giving them multiple issues to deal with at the same time is a solid tactic.

One of the character concepts I was tossing around with before I settled on Malmourral was a gunslinger with a pair of blaster pistols, a bandoleer of grenades and some repulsorlift boots that sort of acted like roller blades for a bit of flavor, and hell, with that alone I had a half a dozen fun ways to overwhelm a Jedi. You don't need to be a walking swiss army knife anymore, you just need to be strategic with your posts and give Jedi more than one thing to deal with at any given time.
 

Tsunami

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I mean, a generic Jetpack has more than a few minutes flight time. A generic repeater has 30 rounds + and a high rate of fire.

You fly in the air, rain fire down on a force user, or anyone for that matter. They can't kill you unless they pull for a blaster, no one can deflect that many shots realisticly. The only time they can get the upper hand is when you reload.

Would that be better writing skill? I mean I don't think it would be. Funnily enough it would be tactical, keeping range with your generic kit and using generic tech would allow something like that.

In the sense of a Vibroblade user vs a FU Glowbatter. Could that vibroblade user win? If both were wearing generic armour, the vibroblade takes multiple hits to kill, the lightsaber takes one. The force user can augment their movements while the other can not. However, the argument would be made, why get into a fight with that person then.
 

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I am delighted this discussion is hapenning as I would hope Diva's profile makes it pretty clear where her skillset lies....it's gunslinger. Diva is a gunslinger.

Anywho, here is an interesting hypothetical wrench in the discussion that turns some of the attention on FS, and is particularly relevent to the particle beam discussion happening in the tech boards. In addition to looking at how us gunslingers handle ourselves, I want to examine what is apparently the very feared ability of the lightsbaer colorgaurd to deflect, or more specificaly REFLECT blaster bolts. First of all, the difference is crucial. Reflection is, and should always be considered to take more effort, and concentration, and create less spacial mobility thant merely batting the blaster bolt harmlessly to one side, let alone called shotting a reflection. Furthermore, the level of concetration required for either of course will shoot drastically up, depending on the amount of bolts flying at them, and the spread. I.E. look at the first few moments of the battle on Camino between Jango Fett and Kenobi. Jet pack aside, Jango is using two pistols to lay down a regular flow of pressumably skillfully targeted fire, while Kenobi is only able to deflect the 4-5 shots, instead choosing to close distance; and we know Kenobi is a skilled master of Seresu.

This brings me to my final point: Form. As I understand, it's safe to assume that all jedi/sith recieve some practical training in deflection, but ultimately, mastering that skill, not to mention taking it to the level of reflection is associated with emphasis in particular types of lightsaber combat. As someone who IRL has been a fencer and trained for performance with a variety of swords, I advocate being very specific about lightsaber skills as well. And calling attention back to my example, mobility is also a huge sacrifice if you are focused on moving your saber fast enough to stop bolts. Plus I would argue that it's no casual feet to attempt any force powers in those circumstances.

Forgive and correct me if any of my lore is questionable, but I wanted to submit tap what I think might be another necessary piece of this discussion, given some of the chatter I''ve seen of late.
 

Nor'baal

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Very good points made. I'm trying to get more PvP under my belt this timeline, especially given the new rules and focus.

From my PvP last TL - I personally think that there is a great deal a person with a pistol can do against an FS character, in so long as the rival player is not trying to be as OP as humanly possible.

It's all about each other's limitations, and in so long as the FS players accepts that the force has limits - it's fine.
 

Phoenix

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I am delighted this discussion is hapenning as I would hope Diva's profile makes it pretty clear where her skillset lies....it's gunslinger. Diva is a gunslinger.

Anywho, here is an interesting hypothetical wrench in the discussion that turns some of the attention on FS, and is particularly relevent to the particle beam discussion happening in the tech boards. In addition to looking at how us gunslingers handle ourselves, I want to examine what is apparently the very feared ability of the lightsbaer colorgaurd to deflect, or more specificaly REFLECT blaster bolts. First of all, the difference is crucial. Reflection is, and should always be considered to take more effort, and concentration, and create less spacial mobility thant merely batting the blaster bolt harmlessly to one side, let alone called shotting a reflection. Furthermore, the level of concetration required for either of course will shoot drastically up, depending on the amount of bolts flying at them, and the spread. I.E. look at the first few moments of the battle on Camino between Jango Fett and Kenobi. Jet pack aside, Jango is using two pistols to lay down a regular flow of pressumably skillfully targeted fire, while Kenobi is only able to deflect the 4-5 shots, instead choosing to close distance; and we know Kenobi is a skilled master of Seresu.

This brings me to my final point: Form. As I understand, it's safe to assume that all jedi/sith recieve some practical training in deflection, but ultimately, mastering that skill, not to mention taking it to the level of reflection is associated with emphasis in particular types of lightsaber combat. As someone who IRL has been a fencer and trained for performance with a variety of swords, I advocate being very specific about lightsaber skills as well. And calling attention back to my example, mobility is also a huge sacrifice if you are focused on moving your saber fast enough to stop bolts. Plus I would argue that it's no casual feet to attempt any force powers in those circumstances.

Forgive and correct me if any of my lore is questionable, but I wanted to submit tap what I think might be another necessary piece of this discussion, given some of the chatter I''ve seen of late.

I think this is fair treatment for both sides if this is how its actually treated. My concern is that people will still abuse it (and maybe if they try, it's just the kind of thing that needs to be reported if they refuse to change it). What i fully expect people to do is do something along the lines of "he was blocking the shots and then attempted to angle one of them back" while continuing to maintain full defense. I'm concerned that most people won't treat it as "man it's hard to block all these rounds" but instead treat it as "wow i'm blocking all of these, oh and here have your own gunshot."

So i guess at the end of the day I'm most concerned with people abusing this, but that may just be something that needs to be solved in a ruling. Maybe there's nothing that can be done about that.
 

Diva

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I think this is fair treatment for both sides if this is how its actually treated. My concern is that people will still abuse it ......

So i guess at the end of the day I'm most concerned with people abusing this, but that may just be something that needs to be solved in a ruling. Maybe there's nothing that can be done about that.

Yeah, I think we can safely assume in anything involving people that people will missuse and abuse anything. The best we have, is to maintain as much logic prevailing discussion as possible.
 

Tsunami

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How much energy does it actually take to swing a almost weightless sword around in Shien. I would guess, not much at all if I am honest. Range is great however in order to not get hit by our own bolt, your going to need to be moving and anyone who has ever fired a gun will know just how much accuracy you lose by running and gunning.

My issue is based around the fact that blaster users will have to reload at some point, a glowstick does not require that. It is also a good amount of time for a force user to charge up a force ability, something they can use to close the gap or even worse a grip that might cause us to be immobile all together.

I will however say this, a lot of these arguments are hypothetical. Have there actually been any Jedi/Sith vs Non-FU blaster users fights yet? How have they faired? What can we pull from them?
 

Noire

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I will however say this, a lot of these arguments are hypothetical. Have there actually been any Jedi/Sith vs Non-FU blaster users fights yet? How have they faired? What can we pull from them?

There's several in the Clone Wars series. The fight between Quinlan Vos/Obi-Wan Kenobi v. Cad Bane was a decent example.
 

Phoenix

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There's several in the Clone Wars series. The fight between Quinlan Vos/Obi-Wan Kenobi v. Cad Bane was a decent example.

I think he meant PvP in this TL

Edit: Although as a side note, if that fight that you just detailed was how fights are handled, I wouldn't have a problem with it at all, but i'm dubious that that's how it will actually work
 

Tsunami

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I think he meant PvP in this TL

Edit: Although as a side note, if that fight that you just detailed was how fights are handled, I wouldn't have a problem with it at all, but i'm dubious that that's how it will actually work

Yeah I meant this TL :P

That fight Cad Bane had a lot of fancy tech though right? If I remember.
 

Kiro

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How much energy does it actually take to swing a almost weightless sword around in Shien. I would guess, not much at all if I am honest.
They aren't nearly weightless anymore. Canon states, especially if you look at the OT and TFA and Rebels, that lightsabers have the approximate mass and weight as a proportionally similar sword. So swinging about a lightsaber would weigh as much as swinging about a katana/European longsword.

So your guess is wrong. It'd be quite a bit of energy.
 

Diva

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Aha....This is a beautiful example. . this fight is actually the perfect illustration of this discussion. Notice how TWO jedi are able to defelct and advance on a gunslinger, each only having to deal with one of his pistols, while he retreats to maintain distance. Still, the only time we see accurate Reflection is when Kenobi is able to ground himself for a moment. At the same time, Cad's tech does in fact play a HUGE role in this. It is not really armor, but he has an insane droid that manages to use a lightsaber, and more signifacantly is the stun gauntlet he's sporting. Then again, this is also not 1 on 1. Whie we should also take some of the ultimately nonsense family friendly writing and choreo that are involved in this children's cartoon, it does incapsulate a lot of this.

@Tsunami Good point, but to me it's not the effort to swing but to swing with targeted purpose. I am not usually a fan of real world analogies, but take a tennis racket (very light) and stand at variable range from a tennis ball launcher. Try it at normal speed. Try just keeping the ball from hitting you, then try sending it back to hit the machine. Still challenging. Now turn it up a notch. Now another....

seriously thought try it, lol. My idiot friends and I actually did that once when someone was dumb enough to let us near a country club tennis court in highschool. We....we are not jedi....
 

Kiro

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I was gonna link the Jango vs Obi-Wan fight, but most of that was just Obi-Wan lying on the ground due to explosions and Jango and Obi-Wan engaging in fisticuffs or being on a slip'n'slide.

And I wouldn't say that Bane's droid can 'use' a lightsaber. Flying straight forward with an already activated lightsaber hardly equates to 'using' one.

And Diva, that 2-on-one video is a lot more realistic than the Jango vs Obi fight.
 

Tsunami

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They aren't nearly weightless anymore. Canon states, especially if you look at the OT and TFA and Rebels, that lightsabers have the approximate mass and weight as a proportionally similar sword. So swinging about a lightsaber would weigh as much as swinging about a katana/European longsword.

So your guess is wrong. It'd be quite a bit of energy.

Was that confirmed to be implemented? I know it was up in the air, that plasma has a weight and therefore a lightsaber can't be weightless. However I didn't see anything confirmed if the site implemented that.

@Diva Tumi I love the tennis racket idea, however imagine a tennis player doing it. They go all the way up to 90 miles an hour, not only do they hit them back repeatedly, they hit them towards a location of their choosing quite often.

Maybe seeing as there is clearly a few people here who are worried about the competitiveness of Blaster Users vs Glowstick Users we should do a "factual" duelling thread in a ring like the one in KOTOR on Taris. See where the downfalls are, if there are any? Maybe as a collective group use that information to work out a way to "balance" rather than "overpower" the situations we are faced with.
 
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