Is Star Wars Fantasy or Reality?

[Sleven]

Simple question, was something brought up in this thread: Link that quickly got off topic.

So we can now discuss it here.

I think it's fantasy: GO!

 

[Maxx]

In a parallel universe, people from Star Wars watch movies about the people here at SWRP. Personally while I hardly doubt that it happens like it does in the movies, I wouldn't be surprised if there is some galaxy far, far away where they're having a Galactic War.

 

[Sleven]

In a parallel universe, people from Star Wars watch movies about the people here at SWRP. Personally while I hardly doubt that it happens like it does in the movies, I wouldn't be surprised if there is some galaxy far, far away where they're having a Galactic War.

It was meant to be based on the original discussion from the other thread that got off topic, but I suppose this is relevant as well...

So you're saying you believe Star Wars is reality because reality is (in your view) infinite and we don't know everything about it?

 

[Maxx]

It was meant to be based on the original discussion from the other thread that got off topic, but I suppose this is relevant as well...

So you're saying you believe Star Wars is reality because reality is (in your view) infinite and we don't know everything about it?

Sure...

 

[Sleven]

Sure...

I'm not sure if that "Sure..." means I understood your point correctly or not :CStern

 

[Colt556]

SW is science fiction. The very basis of science fiction is that it's fiction grounded in science. We can't do these things in real life, but they are theoretically possible due to the laws of the universe. For much of the SW, most of it in fact, it fits this description. It delves into the realm of fantasy when you introduce magic, aka the Force. The force really can't be explained, it's magic, that part of SW is fantasy. The rest is science fiction, though.

 

[Maxx]

I'm not sure if that "Sure..." means I understood your point correctly or not :CStern

I didn't really have a point, I was just saying what I've been taught. I've been taught that the universe is a big place and as such, it is highly unlikely that we are alone in the universe. And then to the parallel thing, well isn't that some theory that there is an infinite number of universes. And then to Colt, I agree with you on the Force thing, although yet again, the universe is a big place and there could be some gene out there that allows people to do super human things like, using the Force.

 

[Defiance]

What kind of question is this. It also strays from the actual topic brought up in Toska's thread.

Our reality is what we perceive, and Star Wars was created to be a fantasy. A wild, new galaxy where guns have lasers, magic monks rule, and aliens are everywhere. If you're saying that a galaxy with those ideas were thought of realistically, then you're wrong.

Of course, in Toska's thread, the thought was if physics were employed in Force powers. My answer is somewhat, why? So that fantasy can be more vivid. The reason why is the same reason why they don't call the Jedi magic monks. Because they need to add depth to it, an element of plausibility to the supernatural realm.

 

[The Kyzer]

For Colt556

Blasters are theoretically possible using real life physics.
-Not as they exist now. For one, as soon as it left a barrel (that's assuming it was capable of doing so), the bolt would cool down exponentially and fade. If you're going with the idea that they're slugs encased in plasma, the slug would require an internal power supply, and the SW-canon says that's NOT how it works.
Ion weapons, same deal.
-Ionized particles could theoretically do what they do when they hit, but the actual shooting of them falls into the same category as blaster weapons. That, and they'd attack anything of a different polarity as them. Anything of the same polarity would repel them, making them useless.
Shields, same deal.
-Oh geez, this one will take a while. Ray shields, theoretical. Particle shields, theoretical. PROJECTING them=not. Projecting them at the same time=definitely not. Magnetic shielding would work a bit as ray shields, and cold-plasma would work as particle, but projecting them is impossible because of how they need to work. Magnetic shielding would require so much energy that it would be on a planetary scale, and even then, it wouldn't be able to deflect a direct blast like a blaster bolt (assuming they work). Particle shields would work in deflecting, but can't be projected as they do. It would require direct contact points to shape it around a ship, with no interfering material, with the power supply, which would also be ENORMOUS. Projecting them both at the same time would cause both to fail, as they'd either attract each other and thus throw off the polarities, or repel each other, and rip the ship apart.
Repulsors, same deal.
-You're kidding right? Ok, maybe lifting an object up a couple feet might be feasible, albeit with a lot of power, but to completely negate gravity? Not gonna happen. The way the SW-canon explains them is impossible.
Gravity well projectors, same deal.
-See Repulsors above.
Hypermatter, you got me on this one, this one is pure fiction.
Which planets?
-The Corellian System, for one. Now I know what you're going to say. "It was created, and doesn't occur naturally in the SW universe either." Yes, that's true, but having that many solid planets around one star, especially those of their size? They'd rip out of the star's gravitational field with ease. Hell, Pluto can't be controlled by our star, and we only have four solid planets, with two of those being so close to the Sun to be wastelands. The rest are gas giants, which require a LOT less gravitational force to restrain. Unless Corel is the star-equivalent of the Hulk (which it's not as stated in canon), there's no way it could hold on to all those planets and the outliers.
Sensors are possible.
-Not in the way they use them. Sensing emissions would require said-emissions to be traveling toward the sensor. Say you were sitting in a system and a Star Destroyer hopped in, angled directly at you. The engine emissions would be projected away from you, so emission-catching sensors wouldn't work. You might be able to explain that LIDAR tech could sense the ship, but not the emissions themselves. Hitting a cloud of ions would scramble the laser immediately, defusing the ability for the laser to reflect back and signal the projector that it hit anything. Your sensor would say that there was nothing there.

Maw installation is, technically possible but never as a natural occurrence. Then again, it's not natural in SW either.
-Yeah, it's not a natural occurrence, and for good reason. Black holes would either rip each other apart, trying to consume each other, or their magnetic fields would repel each other, spreading them apart. Now, the combination of those might keep a semblance of a cluster, but a "safe area" inside wouldn't be possible. If it did exist, the black holes would pull it apart in an attempt to consume black holes on the other side. Let alone a safe-tunnel passage being possible.

 

[Sleven]

What kind of question is this. It also strays from the actual topic brought up in Toska's thread.

Our reality is what we perceive, and Star Wars was created to be a fantasy. A wild, new galaxy where guns have lasers, magic monks rule, and aliens are everywhere. If you're saying that a galaxy with those ideas were thought of realistically, then you're wrong.

Of course, in Toska's thread, the thought was if physics were employed in Force powers. My answer is somewhat, why? So that fantasy can be more vivid. The reason why is the same reason why they don't call the Jedi magic monks. Because they need to add depth to it, an element of plausibility to the supernatural realm.

It doesn't stray at all, it was quickly written and simplified so people could easily bring up the points that were being made and are relevant to this thread and not the other.

I don't feel that physics is necessary to add depth. Descriptors and language is, which came before physics and is used to describe physics including its theories. Therefore why would the Force have to be grounded in physics? Why couldn't it transcend physics or bi-pass it entirely if the right descriptors and fantasy elements are created/used?

 

[Colt556]

-Not as they exist now. For one, as soon as it left a barrel (that's assuming it was capable of doing so), the bolt would cool down exponentially and fade. If you're going with the idea that they're slugs encased in plasma, the slug would require an internal power supply, and the SW-canon says that's NOT how it works.

Blasters fire balls of plasma encased in a magnetic "shell". Plasma also doesn't cool down immediately. So there's really nothing impossible about this. I mean hell, we're experimenting with plasma-based weapons in real life right now.

-Ionized particles could theoretically do what they do when they hit, but the actual shooting of them falls into the same category as blaster weapons. That, and they'd attack anything of a different polarity as them. Anything of the same polarity would repel them, making them useless.

What prevents them from going everywhere or being a general nuisance to try and shoot is the same magnetic shell that encases blaster bolts. It keeps them stuck together until they hit something or the EM field dissipates, allowing them to scatter.

-Oh geez, this one will take a while. Ray shields, theoretical. Particle shields, theoretical. PROJECTING them=not. Projecting them at the same time=definitely not. Magnetic shielding would work a bit as ray shields, and cold-plasma would work as particle, but projecting them is impossible because of how they need to work. Magnetic shielding would require so much energy that it would be on a planetary scale, and even then, it wouldn't be able to deflect a direct blast like a blaster bolt (assuming they work). Particle shields would work in deflecting, but can't be projected as they do. It would require direct contact points to shape it around a ship, with no interfering material, with the power supply, which would also be ENORMOUS. Projecting them both at the same time would cause both to fail, as they'd either attract each other and thus throw off the polarities, or repel each other, and rip the ship apart.

See, the problem is here you're very much ignoring the theoretical aspects. WE can't project them in real life. We can't produce enough power in real life. But if we could figure those out, then we can most certainly create shields that do the same thing as SW shields. The whole point of theoretical physics is that, while we can't do that stuff yet, the laws of nature tells us it is possible. It's just a degree of mastering the necessary power and control elements. It's still theoretically possible and it still abides by real life physics, which is the ultimate point I've been making.

-You're kidding right? Ok, maybe lifting an object up a couple feet might be feasible, albeit with a lot of power, but to completely negate gravity? Not gonna happen. The way the SW-canon explains them is impossible.

You contradict yourself in this. You say it might be possible to lift an object but then say it's impossible? Again, it's perfectly possible within the realm of physics. Just because we lack the necessary power sources to actually do it doesn't change that.

-See Repulsors above.

Again, our limited power generating abilities doesn't mean it's not possible.

-The Corellian System, for one. Now I know what you're going to say. "It was created, and doesn't occur naturally in the SW universe either." Yes, that's true, but having that many solid planets around one star, especially those of their size? They'd rip out of the star's gravitational field with ease. Hell, Pluto can't be controlled by our star, and we only have four solid planets, with two of those being so close to the Sun to be wastelands. The rest are gas giants, which require a LOT less gravitational force to restrain. Unless Corel is the star-equivalent of the Hulk (which it's not as stated in canon), there's no way it could hold on to all those planets and the outliers.

Does it ever actually state how big the corellian star is? What type it is? Because you do know our star in real life is a very small and very weak star by galactic standards. All it would take is a decent sized star and you could very easily have those planets there. It's hardly a big deal.

-Not in the way they use them. Sensing emissions would require said-emissions to be traveling toward the sensor. Say you were sitting in a system and a Star Destroyer hopped in, angled directly at you. The engine emissions would be projected away from you, so emission-catching sensors wouldn't work. You might be able to explain that LIDAR tech could sense the ship, but not the emissions themselves. Hitting a cloud of ions would scramble the laser immediately, defusing the ability for the laser to reflect back and signal the projector that it hit anything. Your sensor would say that there was nothing there.

Sensors pick up a multitude of readings, not just engine emissions. Ships radiate heat, they radiate various types of energy. It's not like the only point where energy comes out of are the engines. Ships are moving balls of energy that sensors can pick up. That is also why running your ship powered down can get you past sensors. There's also a reason why certain types of radiation can interfere with sensors. Again, none of this is impossible with real life physics.

-Yeah, it's not a natural occurrence, and for good reason. Black holes would either rip each other apart, trying to consume each other, or their magnetic fields would repel each other, spreading them apart. Now, the combination of those might keep a semblance of a cluster, but a "safe area" inside wouldn't be possible. If it did exist, the black holes would pull it apart in an attempt to consume black holes on the other side. Let alone a safe-tunnel passage being possible.

It's all about balance. And it's not like the black holes are right on top of each other. It's also not true that black holes go around sucking up everything. You have to get very close to a black hole for it to actually suck you in. Astronomical terms, that is. Those black holes would be many many many AU away from each other. And position just right so that the path and the safe zone are beyond all of their gravitational pulls. It's engineered, after all. They can move the black holes to ensure this safe zone exists.

 

[Merak Bashee]

I'd like to point out that in some cases, SW is bound to the 70's idea of science and future science. A lot of things seen in SW, we know to be possible through means other than the SW-canon. Repulsorlift technology for one.

 

[The Kyzer]

Blasters and Ion weapons:

The blaster and ion bolts would work like you say, except for one issue.

How is the magnetic field created and maintained? There's nothing to create that field.

Repulsors:

You COULD lift it, exerting force at a straight down angle, a bit, but the other things that repulsors do is impossible. It's been described as what allows ships to have gravity. Gravity works in circular fields, unless acted upon by another gravitational force. To have gravity on a ship like they do, repulsors would be needed everywhere to make a person stable, at nearly every point. To have THAT, you'd eventually have a point where that gravitational force collects, pretty much crushing whatever is at that point. Repulsors don't work like gravity. They push in or pull in one direction. Gravity pushes or pulls to a central point from ALL directions.

Tractor Beams:
Now that I've explained gravity and repulsors, I could see how it would be feasible, so I'll concede this: Simply pushing or pulling an object would work, but it wouldn't work like they work in canon. Multiple tractor beams from all angles would be needed to securely grab one object like they do in canon.

Corell
It lists Corell as a yellow star, which has a maximum capacity similar to our Sun.

Sensors:
Yes, those sensors would work. But the things that the canon says they do don't. Also, heat, radiation, and other forms of energy would take time to be picked up. In canon, they are picked up instantaneously.

The Maw:
They're listed as being pretty freakin close, but to have a tunnel through them where you have to remain in a very small field to pass through? That would require them to be close enough to interact and cancel each other out.

 

[Colt556]

Blasters and Ion weapons:

The blaster and ion bolts would work like you say, except for one issue.

How is the magnetic field created and maintained? There's nothing to create that field.

Nothing. They aren't maintained. That's why energy weapons have a max range. The magnetic field weakens and energy leaks out until it dissipates. It just sticks around long enough for it to get to where it's going.

Repulsors:

You COULD lift it, exerting force at a straight down angle, a bit, but the other things that repulsors do is impossible. It's been described as what allows ships to have gravity. Gravity works in circular fields, unless acted upon by another gravitational force. To have gravity on a ship like they do, repulsors would be needed everywhere to make a person stable, at nearly every point. To have THAT, you'd eventually have a point where that gravitational force collects, pretty much crushing whatever is at that point. Repulsors don't work like gravity. They push in or pull in one direction. Gravity pushes or pulls to a central point from ALL directions.

It depends on how repulsors work. Artificial gravity is possible with the laws of physics. Again, I must reiterate. The point here is not whether or not we can create SW tech in real life. It's whether SW tech is possible using real life laws of physics. Anti-gravity is possible in theoretical physics.

Tractor Beams:
Now that I've explained gravity and repulsors, I could see how it would be feasible, so I'll concede this: Simply pushing or pulling an object would work, but it wouldn't work like they work in canon. Multiple tractor beams from all angles would be needed to securely grab one object like they do in canon.

The original was actually gravity well projectors, not tractor beams. But tractor beams interact very little with gravity so eh. As for your 'multiple tractor beams', that's precisely how they do it in SW. The only time a single projector is used is to outright stop a ship. If they try to move it they use multiple projectors.

Corell
It lists Corell as a yellow star, which has a maximum capacity similar to our Sun.

Still plenty to keep five planets in orbit. Our sun keeps a hell of a lot more mass than that in orbit. Stars have exceptional gravitational pull, five earth-sized planets are nothing for a star. Unless it's a really damned small star.

Sensors:
Yes, those sensors would work. But the things that the canon says they do don't. Also, heat, radiation, and other forms of energy would take time to be picked up. In canon, they are picked up instantaneously.

Sensors don't detect anything other than forms of energy. I'm not sure what things they do that has you thinking sensors are impossible. All they do is collect data on various energy emissions and crunch the data to determine what that object is. Also, it's possible to detect energy from across the system with the proper instruments. Just because we lack such instruments in real life doesn't mean it's impossible in the realm of physics.

The Maw:
They're listed as being pretty freakin close, but to have a tunnel through them where you have to remain in a very small field to pass through? That would require them to be close enough to interact and cancel each other out.

'pretty freakin close' by astronomy terms. As far as astronomy is concerned, if you're a couple million AU you're 'pretty freakin close'. But that's still a very very long ways away. The blackholes are unnaturally close by astronomy terms, but they're not a couple hundred thousand kilometers or something. Space is big, never forget that.

 

[Wit]

You can have magnetic fields of the sort you are talking about around a plasma bolt, ion shots not so much. The plasma needs to be in motion, the motion of the particles is what creates the magnetic fields. And that field will not always hold the bolt together. You would need to control the motion to create just the right magnetic field to hold it together. So theoretically you can create a magnetic field to hold a a plasma bolt together but the amount of control that would require means that as soon as it leaves your launcher random motion will set in and the field changes, which might cause you palsma to scatter. Besides we can't build anything right now that would fit into the size of a blaster and create the kind of magnetic fields you are looking for. The other means to create a magnetic field around the plasma is to hit it with lasers, but again not sustainable once the shot is fired. Your best bet to pull soemthing off like this with our current understanding of physics would be to create a magnetic containment tube between you source and destination and fire the plasma into that.

Stuff in the Star Wars universe might be possible as per theoretical physics, but that does not mean that all of it is or will ever be practically implementable the way that Star Wars represents it.

 

[Cassanova]

Original Trilogy: Science Fantasy.
Prequel Trilogy: Science Fiction.

Which is better? Overall?

Science Fantasy, by far. Sith Alchemy, magic, the Force? (i know they tried to sci-fi it up with midichlorians, but failszRus)
Very Fantastical, in my opinion.

 

[Colt556]

You can have magnetic fields of the sort you are talking about around a plasma bolt, ion shots not so much. The plasma needs to be in motion, the motion of the particles is what creates the magnetic fields. And that field will not always hold the bolt together. You would need to control the motion to create just the right magnetic field to hold it together. So theoretically you can create a magnetic field to hold a a plasma bolt together but the amount of control that would require means that as soon as it leaves your launcher random motion will set in and the field changes, which might cause you palsma to scatter. Besides we can't build anything right now that would fit into the size of a blaster and create the kind of magnetic fields you are looking for. The other means to create a magnetic field around the plasma is to hit it with lasers, but again not sustainable once the shot is fired. Your best bet to pull soemthing off like this with our current understanding of physics would be to create a magnetic containment tube between you source and destination and fire the plasma into that.

Stuff in the Star Wars universe might be possible as per theoretical physics, but that does not mean that all of it is or will ever be practically implementable the way that Star Wars represents it.

Well, the original point of contention was whether these things were possible due to the laws of physics. It was never about whether we could actually do them. People seemed to forget that. The way blasters function is entirely possible with what we know about physics. We lack the ability to emulate it, we don't know how to emulate, we just know it should be possible according to our understanding of physics. It was mostly to counter the "it's magic I aint gotta explain shit" mentality a lot of SW rpers have. SW is science fiction, and they put a lot of work into retconning things to make them more plausible. Should always try to explain how you do what you do. Details can make or break a story and if you do something that you can't explain, it's tant amount to godmodding. Because once you get into the realm of doing the unexplainable, anybody can do anything. Even if you have to fluff it up with scifi talk, should try to explain how you did stuff according to the laws set in place by the universe you rp in.

As I said to Toska, to clarify, that explanation does not, and should not be done during the actual roleplay. But should someone question your ability OOCly, you should be able to explain it. If you can't, you shouldn't be doing that action. It would be like me pulling a star dreadnought out of my ass with zero explanation for how I got it. It just should never be done. Everything should be able to be explained should you be questioned on it.

 

[Sleven]

Original Trilogy: Science Fantasy.
Prequel Trilogy: Science Fiction.

Which is better? Overall?

Science Fantasy, by far. Sith Alchemy, magic, the Force? (i know they tried to sci-fi it up with midichlorians, but failszRus)
Very Fantastical, in my opinion.

Couldn't agree with you more.

Well, the original point of contention was whether these things were possible due to the laws of physics. It was never about whether we could actually do them. People seemed to forget that. The way blasters function is entirely possible with what we know about physics. We lack the ability to emulate it, we don't know how to emulate, we just know it should be possible according to our understanding of physics. It was mostly to counter the "it's magic I aint gotta explain shit" mentality a lot of SW rpers have. SW is science fiction, and they put a lot of work into retconning things to make them more plausible. Should always try to explain how you do what you do. Details can make or break a story and if you do something that you can't explain, it's tant amount to godmodding. Because once you get into the realm of doing the unexplainable, anybody can do anything. Even if you have to fluff it up with scifi talk, should try to explain how you did stuff according to the laws set in place by the universe you rp in.

As I said to Toska, to clarify, that explanation does not, and should not be done during the actual roleplay. But should someone question your ability OOCly, you should be able to explain it. If you can't, you shouldn't be doing that action. It would be like me pulling a star dreadnought out of my ass with zero explanation for how I got it. It just should never be done. Everything should be able to be explained should you be questioned on it.

I disagree. As I've already explained to you, SW has it's own universal laws and rules that aren't physics because they ignore many of the laws of physics. Furthermore, I will never be able to explain to you OOCly how my character can telekinetically move things other than to say: "it's the Force". He isn't manipulating any known laws of the universe, it just happens because he can. That doesn't diminish the power, the fascination/mysticism behind it, and it's overall value to the SW universe. Pulling a Star Dreadnaught out of your ass on the other hand is obviously beyond the common sense realm of what you should/should not be able to do.

 

[GABA]

Simple question, was something brought up in this thread: Link that quickly got off topic.

So we can now discuss it here.

I think it's fantasy: GO!

Is this the real life?
Is this just fantasy?
Caught in a landsliddddddddddde...
No escape from reality...

I couldn't resist. Carry on...

 

[Colt556]

Couldn't agree with you more.



I disagree. As I've already explained to you, SW has it's own universal laws and rules that aren't physics because they ignore many of the laws of physics. Furthermore, I will never be able to explain to you OOCly how my character can telekinetically move things other than to say: "it's the Force". He isn't manipulating any known laws of the universe, it just happens because he can. That doesn't diminish the power, the fascination/mysticism behind it, and it's overall value to the SW universe. Pulling a Star Dreadnaught out of your ass on the other hand is obviously beyond the common sense realm of what you should/should not be able to do.

As I have said, just because SW has some things that can't be explained by the laws of physics does NOT give you the ability to go around and discard everything under the pretense that "SW is different". SW was built on real life. 99% of SW abides by the laws of physics as we know them. The majority of exceptions being force-related powers. You, at least what I can tell from your posts, are trying to make the argument that just because the force is magic, all laws of physics don't apply to SW. This is simply, 100% false. SW still has gravity. It still has the laws of motion. It still has all the laws of physics that we know of. The exceptions are not the rules. Being unable to explain levitating a box is one thing. Being unable to explain how you teleport/shoot lightning/fire a blaster is not acceptable. Because those things CAN be explained. And anything that can be explained, should be explained. Star Wars is science fiction with a little magic thrown in. As such you must treat it as science fiction with a little magic. And you don't get science fiction by throwing out the laws of the universe.