Islam and Violence.

[Flame]

This thread is about Islam, not Christianity.

Islam deserves just as much criticism as Christianity.

I love how I hear those comments from a budding atheist. :) Hmmm...I wonder how many people the atheists Stalin and Mao Tse Dung have killed together? If atheists would only stop being so darn self-righteous then maybe Christians wouldn't be so defensive eh?

Your argument is moot Fynar. These guys are frauds.

"Priests are adherents of Christian Identity, a racist and anti-Semitic religion. Christian Identity teaches that white people are descended from the Lost Tribes of Israel and are thus God's chosen people, that Jews are descendents of Satan, and that non-whites are soulless "mud people." The concept of the Phineas Priesthood comes from a 1990 book by white supremacist and Christian Identity follower Richard Kelly Hoskins, Vigilantes of Christendom: The Story of the Phineas Priesthood. In the book, Hoskins describes a continuous priesthood of "avengers" who, throughout the centuries, have committed violent acts in order to defend racial purity and "God's Law."

This Phineas Priesthood is utter garbage, spiritually speaking.

 

[Fynar]

I love how I hear those comments from a budding atheist. :) Hmmm...I wonder how many people the atheists Stalin and Mao Tse Dung have killed together? If atheists would only stop being so darn self-righteous then maybe Christians wouldn't be so defensive eh?

Thats a completely different story.

 

[Flame]

Thats a completely different story.

I'm sure, nice cop-out. Remember eugenics? That was an atheistic idea. Remember Hitler? He claimed to be a Catholic yet he was really similar to Napoleon. Napoelons another great atheistic dictator. Maybe we should stop pretending that atheists are perfect little creatures all the time eh?

 

[Fynar]

I love how I hear those comments from a budding atheist. :) Hmmm...I wonder how many people the atheists Stalin and Mao Tse Dung have killed together? If atheists would only stop being so darn self-righteous then maybe Christians wouldn't be so defensive eh?

Your argument is moot Fynar. These guys are frauds.

"Priests are adherents of Christian Identity, a racist and anti-Semitic religion. Christian Identity teaches that white people are descended from the Lost Tribes of Israel and are thus God's chosen people, that Jews are descendents of Satan, and that non-whites are soulless "mud people." The concept of the Phineas Priesthood comes from a 1990 book by white supremacist and Christian Identity follower Richard Kelly Hoskins, Vigilantes of Christendom: The Story of the Phineas Priesthood. In the book, Hoskins describes a continuous priesthood of "avengers" who, throughout the centuries, have committed violent acts in order to defend racial purity and "God's Law."

This Phineas Priesthood is utter garbage, spiritually speaking.

I know all of that. Though they did have members at one time who actually did go out and commit acts of violence so they were a terrorist organization and a christian one.

 

[JM76]

If atheists would only stop being so darn self-righteous then maybe Christians wouldn't be so defensive eh?

I can't speak for any other Christian here, but I aim to not be "defensive". I simply provide clarification and insight on my PoV, and then I provide my opinion(s) and answer questions. Being defensive is pointless.

But isn't this thread about Islam and not Atheism vs. Christianity (again >_>)?

 

[Flame]

I know all of that. Though they did have members at one time who actually did go out and commit acts of violence so they were a terrorist organization and a christian one.

Uh....no they weren't lol. They don't adhere to Christian beliefs at all. Maybe you should do a little research as to what Christians truly believe before accusing us of being linked with radical anti-semite groups like these kk? I think nowadays, people have this idea (because of atheists like Richard Dawkins) about what Christianity is and it's a facade imo.

Here I'll tell you everything that true Christians should believe.

A real Christian will believe in the life, death, ressurrection of Jesus Christ the son of God. It's not about race, it's not about sex, or gender. It all really comes down to believing that he rose again on the 3rd day as the Torah/OT predicted that he would.

 

[Fynar]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qutbism

Apprently this school of thought in Islam is responsible for many of the violent groups today.

 

[Ser Gregor]

I love how I hear those comments from a budding atheist. :) Hmmm...I wonder how many people the atheists Stalin and Mao Tse Dung have killed together? If atheists would only stop being so darn self-righteous then maybe Christians wouldn't be so defensive eh?

I wonder how many non-believers the Church have killed, excommunicated, and imprisoned? I wonder how many Muslims were killed when the Pope needed a boost in approval and decided to start a crusade? I wonder how many Christians were killed in Islamic expansion? I wonder how many Jews were killed since ****ing forever ago by other religions?

Your point is moot. ***** aren't limited to specific denominations. Who'da thunk it?

 

[Fynar]

Uh....no they weren't lol. They don't adhere to Christian beliefs at all. Maybe you should do a little research as to what Christians truly believe before accusing us of being linked with radical anti-semite groups like these kk? I think nowadays, people have this idea (because of atheists like Richard Dawkins) about what Christianity is and it's a facade imo.

Here I'll tell you everything that true Christians should believe.

A real Christian will believe in the life, death, ressurrection of Jesus Christ the son of God. It's not about race, it's not about sex, or gender. It all really comes down to believing that he rose again on the 3rd day as the Torah/OT predicted that he would.

Thats a dumb arguement. I mean they believed that, they used books through the bible to use there violence. Though I guess you could say they are a jewish group as many of the texts they use are from the old testament. Though thats in christian theology and they more than likely believe in the christ thing.

 

[Flame]

I wonder how many non-believers the Church have killed, excommunicated, and imprisoned? I wonder how many Muslims were killed when the Pope needed a boost in approval and decided to start a crusade? I wonder how many Christians were killed in Islamic expansion? I wonder how many Jews were killed since ****ing forever ago by other religions?

Your point is moot. ***** aren't limited to specific denominations. Who'da thunk it?

People all do wrong things but I was merely pointing out that there's this self-righteousness going on among many atheists that they're a perfect branch of ideology. You may say "No duh..." but I went onto this Atheist Nation forum and good grief, there are members who are constantly accusing Christians of murdering, hatred, homophobia etc. yet they refuse to acknowledge the faults of atheism.

Like Islam, every ideology out there has its faults. It's not limited to one religion or sect. People were more violent back then and we've certainly improved now so why can't we move past all these accusations?

@Fynar
Well, they may be Christians but they're not very good ones in my opinion. But I'm not the judge so I probablly should watch saying statements like that. All I know Fynar, is that I don't agree with them doctrinally and that they shouldn't be out there hurting innocent people. It's wrong, and I don't care what denomination or religion you're apart of; even if your Immam (like a priest for a muslim) tells you it's right.

 

[Viggy]

Maybe we should stop pretending that atheists are perfect little creatures all the time eh?

Maybe we should stop going so far off-topic and acting immature eh?

Seriously, no one said anything about athiests. Or christianity for that matter. This thread is about Islam, guys. Give reasons for why you think it promotes violence, or for why you don't. No need to make this another Jesus vs. Darwin showdown.

 

[Fynar]

People all do wrong things but I was merely pointing out that there's this self-righteousness going on among many atheists that they're a perfect branch of ideology. You may say "No duh..." but I went onto this Atheist Nation forum and good grief, there are members who are constantly accusing Christians of murdering, hatred, homophobia etc. yet they refuse to acknowledge the faults of atheism.

Like Islam, every ideology out there has its faults. It's not limited to one religion or sect. People were more violent back then and we've certainly improved now so why can't we move past all these accusations?

Many athiest know we aren't perfect. Thats one of the many reasons people don't believe in a "creator" because religion promotes a perfect world through following scriptures written by some guy. I read more about Qubitism it actively promotes a "offensive jihad" as its called to bring back some sort of Islamic purity or something. I guess that want some sort of like empire or nation like in medieval times.

 

[Flame]

Many athiest know we aren't perfect. Thats one of the many reasons people don't believe in a "creator" because religion promotes a perfect world through following scriptures written by some guy.

Once again, you show that you really don't know much about Christianity. If you like I can take it up in pm's with you because people are complaining that I'm getting off topic which I am so chuck me a pm.

@Viggy
Ah, fair point. I'll try to stay on topic; sorry about the rabbit trails.

 

[Ser Gregor]

People all do wrong things but I was merely pointing out that there's this self-righteousness going on among many atheists that they're a perfect branch of ideology. You may say "No duh..." but I went onto this Atheist Nation forum and good grief, there are members who are constantly accusing Christians of murdering, hatred, homophobia etc. yet they refuse to acknowledge the faults of atheism.

The exact same thing can be said about many Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Republicans, and Liberals.

Your. Point. Is. Moot.

So, instead of pointing out the obvious, post something new to this discussion.

ffs these debates always fall in to the same, tired circle of "these people are dicks" and "oh yea well these people are dicks" and "well these people are dicks".

 

[Viggy]

ffs these debates always fall in to the same, tired circle of "these people are dicks" and "oh yea well these people are dicks" and "well these people are dicks".

You're a dick. :CStern:

 

[JM76]

I read more about Qubitism it actively promotes a "offensive jihad" as its called to bring back some sort of Islamic purity or something. I guess that want some sort of like empire or nation like in medieval times.

I believe that is known as Pan-Islamism, or something to that effect.

 

[jediduncan]

I'd have to agree that Islam, just like Christianity or whatever other doctrine or ideology you want to believe in, has been twisted and used to justify and even advocate violence, hatred, etc when perhaps the religion itself is not an inherently violent religion.

However, that does not mean that Islam should be freed of culpability just because the same thing happens with other ideologies. Even if in relative terms to Christianity (or what have you) they are equally innocent, Islam is still guilty, guilty, guilty of many wrongs in the world.

Furthermore, I think there is something to be said that Islam promotes violence more than other religions. I'm sure you can find, and someone has found, some passage or whatever to justify using Buddhism for evil too, but you rarely if ever hear about Buddhism being used for evil. Why? Because it is much more difficult to pervert Buddhist teachings to be used for evil. Meanwhile, Islam is corrupted and used all the time. The frequency with which it is used for hatred as opposed to other religions is startling. Even Christianity has been used to justify violence less than Islam in modern times. There is something wrong with a belief system that can be so easily twisted and perverted to be used for such horrendous evil when there are plenty of other beliefs that are not corrupted quite so easily.

I don't know if anyone else has heard this before, but I'd like to add that I'm tired of people who say we should just 'respect their culture' because 'they have a different way of doing things' and let Muslims and Islamic people do whatever they want. I'm not advocating invasions like we've seen in past years, but it is cannot be written off as'just their way of doing things' when Islamic countries condone stoning women to death for refusing sex, etc. I don't care if that's 'your culture'. I don't and I won't respect or excuse murder, rape, and whatever else is happening over there. Again, please don't think I'm advocating invasion of these countries, because I'm not. I'm just saying that accepting it readily as 'just someone else's culture' is wrong.

 

[Storm]

People are violent.

A religion is inanimate; it can't be violent itself.

In practice, I don't believe that Islam is particularly violent; there are a bunch of assholes who use it so, yes, but Islam isn't inherently violent in my beliefs. I don't agree with the degrading of women through Sharia law but, to be quite honest, I'm not sure what Islam says on that.

So no, not necessarily.

 

[Green Ranger]

So much for Arcane saying he wasn't posting in Current Affairs anymore.

Anyway, to be on-topic: Religious extremists have plenty of ammunition to make their causes seem right and just in the context of their religious beliefs. It's not the religion, it's the personal intepretation of that religion that causes violence.

 

[Sovereign]

People are violent.

Says who? I'm not violent. Are you violent? Have you ever considered blowing yourself up? Ever killed someone? Know anyone that has committed murdered? No? Then why say that we're violent?

In truth, people are not inherently violent. But they can be brainwashed to be.

A religion is inanimate; it can't be violent itself.

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire

Yes it's inanimate, but it can easily inspired violence and that's the whole point of the argument.

In practice, I don't believe that Islam is particularly violent; there are a bunch of assholes who use it so, yes, but Islam isn't inherently violent in my beliefs. I don't agree with the degrading of women through Sharia law but, to be quite honest, I'm not sure what Islam says on that.

"Slay them wherever you find them...Idolatry is worse than carnage...Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme." (Surah 2:190-)

"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it." (Surah 2:216)

"Men are tempted [in this life] by the lure of women...far better is the return of God. Say: 'Shall I tell you of better things than these, with which the righteous shall be rewarded by their Lord? Theirs shall be gardens watered by running streams, where they shall dwell for ever: wives of perfect chastity..." (Surah 3:14, 15)

"The only true faith in God's sight is Islam." (Surah 3:19)

"Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people...They desire nothing but your ruin....You believe in the entire Book...When they meet you they say: 'We, too, are believers.' But when alone, they bite their finger-tips with rage." (Surah 3:118, 119)

"If you should die or be slain in the cause of God, His forgiveness and His mercy would surely be better than all the riches..." (Surah 3:156-)

"To those that declare: 'God has commanded us to believe no apostle unless he brings down fire to consume an offering,' say: 'Other apostles before me [Muhammad] have come to you with veritable signs and worked the miracle you asked for...If they reject you [Muhammad], other apostles have been rejected before you..." (Surah 3:183-)

"If you wish to replace a wife with another, do not take from her the dowry you have given her..." (Surah 4:20)

"Forbidden to you are...married women, except those you own as slaves." (Surah 4:20-, 24-)

"Believers, do not approach your prayers when you are drunk, but wait till you can grasp the meaning of your words..." (Surah 4:43)

"Seek out your enemies relentlessly." (Surah 4:103-)

"Try as you may, you cannot treat all your wives impartially." (Surah 4:126-)

"The Jews and Christians say: 'We are the children of God and His loved ones.' Say: 'Why then does He punish you for your sins?" (Surah 5:18)

"Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends." (Surah 5:51)

"The God will say: 'Jesus, son of Mary, did you ever say to mankind 'Worship me and my mother as gods besides God?' 'Glory to You, 'he will answer, 'how could I ever say that to which I have no right?" (Surah 5:114-)

"Believers, when you encounter the infidels on the march, do not turn your backs to them in flight. If anyone on that day turns his back to them, except it be for tactical reasons...he shall incur the wrath of God and Hell shall be his home..." (Surah 8:12-)

"Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God's religion shall reign supreme." (Surah 8:36-)

"If you fear treachery from any of your allies, you may fairly retaliate by breaking off your treaty with them." (Surah 8:51-)

"...make war on the leaders of unbelief...Make war on them: God will chastise them at your hands and humble them. He will grant you victory over them..." (Surah 9:12-)

"It ill becomes the idolaters [non-Muslims] to visit the mosques of God..." (Surah 9:17)

"Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]...until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (Surah 9:27-)

"It is He who has sent forth His apostle with guidance and the true Faith [Islam] to make it triumphant over all religions, however much the idolaters [non-Muslims] may dislike it." (Surah 9:31-)

"If you do not fight, He will punish you sternly, and replace you by other men." (Surah 9:37-)

"Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home." (Surah 9:73)

"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." (Surah 9:121-)

"Say: 'Praise be to God who has never begotten a son; who has no partner in His Kingdom..." (Surah 17:111)

"'How shall I bear a child,' she [Mary] answered, 'when I am a virgin...?' 'Such is the will of the Lord,' he replied. 'That is no difficult thing for Him...God forbid that He [God[ Himself should beget a son!...Those who say: 'The Lord of Mercy has begotten a son,' preach a monstrous falsehood..." (Surah 19:12-, 29-, 88)

"Fight for the cause of God with the devotion due to Him...He has given you the name of Muslims..." (Surah 22:78-)

"Blessed are the believers...who restrain their carnal desires (except with their wives and slave-girls, for these are lawful to them)...These are the heirs of Paradise..." (Surah 23:1-5-)

"You shall not force your slave-girls into prostitution in order that you make money, if they wish to preserve their chastity." (Surah 24:33-)

"As for the faithful who do good works and believe what is revealed to Muhammad...He will forgive them their sins..." (Surah 47:1)

"Muhammad is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another." (Surah 48:29)

"Shall the reward of goodness be anything but good?...Dark-eyed virgins sheltered in their tents...They shall recline on green cushions and fine carpets...Blessed be the name of your Lord..." (Surah 55:52-66-)

BTW; Sharia is present in nearly every muslim country and it openly infringes on women's right.