Organa rescue OOC

[Pyrenees]

I suppose this might be of use. It relates to this thread.

@Versok
@Faded
@ByakuyaXVTogami

 

[Faded]

@Versok

Can you specify which Sith you're shooting at? "Closer Sith" can be ambiguous because we haven't really nailed down positioning just yet.

@ByakuyaXVTogami @Pyrenees

 

[Versok]

@Versok

Can you specify which Sith you're shooting at? "Closer Sith" can be ambiguous because we haven't really nailed down positioning just yet.

@ByakuyaXVTogami @Pyrenees

Its you, since Byakuya is four meters behind you, so, yeah, that much we know

 

[Faded]

Its you, since Byakuya is four meters behind you, so, yeah, that much we know

Okay, I just wanted that clarified

 

[Faded]

Hi Pyrenes.

So, while your defense in theory is plausible, there are a few issues. Your character is moving around the truck in the time that Versok is leaping up, as per shared time. So that means, he would have to react to new stimuli in order to change his action of moving into something else. I think reacting to the usage of the force powers by the two Sith is a reasonable enough new stimuli, however, a Force Barrier is a taxing power and seems rather difficult that he would be able to erect it faster than two simple telekinetic attacks. Additionally, I could be wrong, but I believe a force barrier roots the applicant in place, so Im not sure if it could be used on Versok's PC as he flies in the air.

Do you think you could choose a different defense?

@Pyrenees @Versok @ByakuyaXVTogami

 

[Pyrenees]

Hi, Faded.

I am not ruling out the possibility of changing the defence but would like to see if we can't resolve the issue without doing so first.

I see three points in your text which needs to be adressed:
1. It is a taxing ability
2. Consequently, it should be slow
3. It locks the applicant in place.

I believe that this should be a good base upon which we discuss the matter.
1. According to the write-up, it is taxing when sustained or when it has to be large. In this case, I'd argue that it neither needs to be sustained nor large, as Bya's attack is targeted and has a short time span.
2. The answer on point 1 should address this. Additionally, I think that the reaction time should be enough, seeing as the attack was somewhat clearly telegraphed.
3. It locks the force user, Vardon, in place. Versok's character may still move which should mean that it is fine. I can add a line about him having to stop for a moment if you wish.

I hope that addresses the issues.

@Faded @Versok @ByakuyaXVTogami

 

[Faded]

Hi, Faded.

I am not ruling out the possibility of changing the defence but would like to see if we can't resolve the issue without doing so first.

I see three points in your text which needs to be adressed:
1. It is a taxing ability
2. Consequently, it should be slow
3. It locks the applicant in place.

I believe that this should be a good base upon which we discuss the matter.
1. According to the write-up, it is taxing when sustained or when it has to be large. In this case, I'd argue that it neither needs to be sustained nor large, as Bya's attack is targeted and has a short time span.
2. The answer on point 1 should address this. Additionally, I think that the reaction time should be enough, seeing as the attack was somewhat clearly telegraphed.
3. It locks the force user, Vardon, in place. Versok's character may still move which should mean that it is fine. I can add a line about him having to stop for a moment if you wish.

I hope that addresses the issues.

@Faded @Versok @ByakuyaXVTogami

Okay, I'll give you point 1.

However, the two force attacks are interrupts, so you can't really interrupt an interrupt. Unless you're planning the force barrier to cushion his blow against the wall? If that's the case, then we're good, I was just a bit confused by your wording. Because if the interrupt happens, Vardon cant go back in time to erect a force barrier to defend against the interrupt.

 

[Versok]

It ain't an interrupt though, a force barrier is a defense, it's not like he is pushing you two away so you can't do your force stuff, you are doing it, and he is creating a defense for me against it, nothing else.

 

[Faded]

It ain't an interrupt though, a force barrier is a defense, it's not like he is pushing you two away so you can't do your force stuff, you are doing it, and he is creating a defense for me against it, nothing else.

All right man, we'll roll with it. Though, Pyrennes, your PC has to make Line of Sight with Versok. So, based on current positioning it seems that he would be behind you, meaning Vardon would have to turn around to apply the Force Barrier. Could you please edit your post to mention that as well as the fact that the barrier will root Vardon in place?

@Pyrenees @ByakuyaXVTogami

 

[Pyrenees]

I have made an edit to establish that Versok's character was within the LOS of Vardon and that Vardon had to stop to apply the barrier.

Let me know if anything else is on your mind.

@Faded @Versok @ByakuyaXVTogami

 

[Pyrenees]

Hello, Faded.

I have a few questions. First, however, I want to point out that Vardon's barrier was only used against Bya's attack, not yours.

What do you think your position is at the time of throwing the grenade? I feel like you've written about getting closer a few times, but these actions keep getting interrupted. Establishing a common view on our positions might be for the best - if nothing else, it may prevent misconceptions. Are you still about 20 meters away or have you managed to take a few steps here and there?

Do you have a few more details on the grenades for me? Did you activate them one at a time with the free hand? Was it a throw or did you use the force to 'shoot' them towards Vardon? I would also like to know what you mean when you write about the epicenter of the two grenades. Two spheres doesn't really have a common epicenter unless they're at the same spot.

@Faded @ByakuyaXVTogami @Versok

 

[Faded]

Hello, Faded.

I have a few questions. First, however, I want to point out that Vardon's barrier was only used against Bya's attack, not yours.

What do you think your position is at the time of throwing the grenade? I feel like you've written about getting closer a few times, but these actions keep getting interrupted. Establishing a common view on our positions might be for the best - if nothing else, it may prevent misconceptions. Are you still about 20 meters away or have you managed to take a few steps here and there?

Do you have a few more details on the grenades for me? Did you activate them one at a time with the free hand? Was it a throw or did you use the force to 'shoot' them towards Vardon? I would also like to know what you mean when you write about the epicenter of the two grenades. Two spheres doesn't really have a common epicenter unless they're at the same spot.

@Faded @ByakuyaXVTogami @Versok

Hi Pyrenees,

I've made some substantial edits and have removed the grenades from play entirely.

 

[Pyrenees]

Wonderful!

I'd still like to point out that the barrier was only protecting against Bya's attack, not yours. It looks like you've interpreted that it was protecting against your attack from how you have worded the first sentence in your post.

@Faded

 

[Faded]

Wonderful!

I'd still like to point out that the barrier was only protecting against Bya's attack, not yours. It looks like you've interpreted that it was protecting against your attack from how you have worded the first sentence in your post.

@Faded

Well force barriers aren’t really selective, it’s essentially a protective bubble of force. Buts it’s okay, it didn’t seem like my attack did much so that’s also why I figured the barrier protected against it.

 

[Faded]

@Pyrenees

Just FYI, made a small edit.

 

[Faded]

@Pyrenees @Versok @ByakuyaXVTogami

Hi guys,

So Pyrenees, I claimed the autohit due to the reason mentioned in the thread.

This is because, while a possible interrupt is written, there is no mention whatsoever to specify a defense against my attack. You also do not say that the force push would interrupt his slash, thus nullifying it. You merely write a possible interrupt without mentioning how it relates to your character's defense against my attack. As per the PvP Guide, if an attack is not specified, even if it is implied that it could not work, then it is an autohit. Pyrenees, you do write a secondary provision stating: In the unlikely case that an attack were to happen, his saber would be in a position to defend it. However, shortly before that line, you also write: Seeing the foe fall. As such, due to this timing, your secondary provision is actually occurring only after a successful interrupt and is thus contingent on your interrupt working in the first place. In the case that the interrupt fails, that secondary provision is not valid.

For reference, this is a recent ruling by Loco in a thread involving Dara and I. It was a similar situation, Dara's character was shot at but the attacker wouldn't have had a chance to hit him given the position. Still, Dara needed to mention the shots regardless of whether an interrupt was implied.

 

[Pyrenees]

Hello,

This was unexpected. Thank you for linking to the ruling in the other thread and citing the PvP Guide, I find it most helpful.

Can you clarify what you mean in the first sentence of the main paragraph? Do you mean that the the force push or the slash should be nullified? Reading the cited discussion in the PvP, not mentioning the slash does not mean that the interrupting action is nullified. My interpretation of it is that the interrupting action still happens, but that it might not work to nullify the attack by its own merit.

With this in mind, I would like to argue that your defence against my action interrupting your sprint, and by extension the offensive actions made after that point, is insufficient. You state two reasons for the attack not working in your post:
1. Your character has medium armour
2. Your character is too quick
1. In response to the first point, well, I'm not entirely sure how the armour would help. Sure, it may be able to put some more weight to you. But considering the speed you move at and the force not being too troubled with a few kilograms weight difference, it seems like it would hardly suffice as a defence. Besides, with all your armour concentrated to the upper body, you might be a bit top heavy.
2. In response to the second point, I would like to argue that it is fully reasonable for my character to muster a force push in the time that your character have traversed perhaps 15 meters with force speed. Note that I have taken the slight stagger into consideration when mentioning 15, as opposed to 20.

I believe that me interrupting your running along with the line you cited should be enough to show that I have both made an action to interrupt and recognised that it was meant to affect all your actions following that interrupt. From what I understood by having a look at the previous ruling, Darasuum had not written a line stating that an attack now being unlikely and that his character was prepared for it which makes the circumstances of the two cases different.

Because of the reasoning above, I think it would be fair for you to remove the autohit. Naturally, you are free to point out flaws in my reasoning to continue the discussion.

@Faded @Versok @ByakuyaXVTogami

 

[Faded]

Hello,

This was unexpected. Thank you for linking to the ruling in the other thread and citing the PvP Guide, I find it most helpful.

Can you clarify what you mean in the first sentence of the main paragraph? Do you mean that the the force push or the slash should be nullified? Reading the cited discussion in the PvP, not mentioning the slash does not mean that the interrupting action is nullified. My interpretation of it is that the interrupting action still happens, but that it might not work to nullify the attack by its own merit.

With this in mind, I would like to argue that your defence against my action interrupting your sprint, and by extension the offensive actions made after that point, is insufficient. You state two reasons for the attack not working in your post:
1. Your character has medium armour
2. Your character is too quick
1. In response to the first point, well, I'm not entirely sure how the armour would help. Sure, it may be able to put some more weight to you. But considering the speed you move at and the force not being too troubled with a few kilograms weight difference, it seems like it would hardly suffice as a defence. Besides, with all your armour concentrated to the upper body, you might be a bit top heavy.
2. In response to the second point, I would like to argue that it is fully reasonable for my character to muster a force push in the time that your character have traversed perhaps 15 meters with force speed. Note that I have taken the slight stagger into consideration when mentioning 15, as opposed to 20.

I believe that me interrupting your running along with the line you cited should be enough to show that I have both made an action to interrupt and recognised that it was meant to affect all your actions following that interrupt. From what I understood by having a look at the previous ruling, Darasuum had not written a line stating that an attack now being unlikely and that his character was prepared for it which makes the circumstances of the two cases different.

Because of the reasoning above, I think it would be fair for you to remove the autohit. Naturally, you are free to point out flaws in my reasoning to continue the discussion.

@Faded @Versok @ByakuyaXVTogami

Ahh okay, sure.

Basically, we aren’t really debating the validity of the interrupt. That would be an entirely different discussion. Whether the force push occurs in time to prevent the slash.

What the autohit refers to is the fact that the slash itself is NOT mentioned in your post. That’s what I was citing to in Locos ruling. Your post essentially implies that the force push occurs and thus by default it would prevent the slash. Only issue is, you didn’t actually write that. For example, had you included a line such that:

“Vardon delivers the force push towards Romans legs, etc.. lightsabers May impale him, etc... This would in turn prevent him from getting close to Vardon to complete his slash”

It’s that last line that is important; the PvP rules essentially state that any attacks towards you must be mentioned as to why they don’t hit. The autohit occurs because there is no mention of my slash.

Now, here is a kicker. You did mention a secondary provision which states: Vardon keeps his lightsaber in a position to defend

This line would have ordinarily saved you from the mistake you made about not mentioning my attack. However, you included a statement before it regarding to “seeing the foe fall”. Unfortunately that means your secondary provision is only timed AFTER the interrupt lands and is successful. Secondary defenses are meant to be a saving grace in case your interrupt fails. In this case, it could have been used to defend the slash since your interrupt is not specifically stated to defend or prevent my attack. However, since your secondary provision occurs after the interrupt and only if it works, it can’t serve to defend you otherwise.

Sorry for the long post, I know this is somewhat confusing, and I’m not sure if I’m doing a great job of clarifying it lol.

@Versok @ByakuyaXVTogami

 

[Pyrenees]

I appreciate your willingness to explain the rules for me and think you're doing a rather good job at it.

In regards to the matter at hand: I consequently believe that it becomes quite relevant for me to bring up the fact that my interrupting action should indeed have managed to make you fall. Once your character falls my 'secondary provision' activates and will, as you say, act as a saving grace. The discussion should therefore shift to whether I will manage to interrupt your sprint by making you fall or not. For that, I refer to my previous post.

@Faded @Versok @ByakuyaXVTogami

 

[Versok]

Sorry for the long post, I know this is somewhat confusing, and I’m not sure if I’m doing a great job of clarifying it lol.

@Versok @ByakuyaXVTogami

I am gonna go ahead and disagree about the defense not working, seeinghow its a matter or timing. Even if the autohit happens, it would happen after getting force pushed since it's clearly timed to happen a bit before the lightsaber attacks, once you enter the narrow path, if I recall correctly, which means you would be falling as said autohit happens, if it weren't for that "second defense"

Autohit ain't an instant hit, the attacks of the enemy don't just not work because of them, not unless those attacks happened before the enemy's, and since his condition to defend is dependant of his push, which is still directed towards you, he gets a defense

I had a similar ruling to that in my last pvp, in which an autohit was avoided all because of timing and conditions like that, which was only luck, lind of like right now, but still valid