Promotions rules.

[Brandon Rhea]

Since there seems to be a bit of resistance from you guys over the whole "you must go through training if you've never been in the faction before" rule, I figured I'd open this thread up so you all can give your thoughts as to what you believe the training/promotions rules could be.

Keep in mind that we didn't do this due to a lack of trust for you guys. That's not it at all. It's not to babysit you, it's not to hold your hand, it's not to take power away from you. It's to make things as fair as they can possibly be.

Please keep in mind how rampant of a problem this whole "I'm not a veteran so I can't do anything" mindset is. One of the reasons we felt these new promotion rules were so important was to try and stem that a bit. We don't want people thinking that they're not good enough to be arbitrarily selected to skip training.

Here's a thought I had earlier, and maybe you guys will agree: if the faction leader wants to decide that someone can bypass training, then that someone can do that - provided they make a second character for the faction and have that character trained. It'll be more complicated because of the new 10 character limit, but I think it'd be important to have some sort of catch to the promotion.

Alternatively, if we didn't go that route, there would need to be a separate set of guidelines, plus a waiting period, for when they can advance in rank past that Crusader/Knight level - ones a shit ton higher than the normal advancement rules.

Thoughts?

 

[Ru the Boatswain]

I feel that people who advance must do the alternative to be trained and must train someone, even if they have passed training.

 

[Brandon Rhea]

I feel that people who advance must do the alternative to be trained and must train someone, even if they have passed training.

Yeah but that's a given for further advancement anyway. It would need to be more than just "train someone" if they want to skip training.

 

[Jaqen H'ghar]

What I proposed in the previous thread is that the person would have to train double the ammount of acolytes/padawans that they would have to for advancement to master, and that training wouldn't count towards them reaching master. There would also be a time limit set that they would have to have that training completed by.

So say for my faction yuo have to train 2 people over the course of your history with the bogan to advance to master. If you were allowed to skip training you would have to train 4 acolytes under a set time limit of say...a month and a half maybe? And those 4 would not go towards the two that you have to train later on to reach the rank of Master.

Now, as for the Veterans do everything and we can't problem. Really that's simple, because I've opted to let noobs skip training instead of veterans.

 

[Kaeb]

No problems here boss.

 

[Jiang Winters]

@Sheo: The problem with setting any sort of time limit in training is that if the padawans/acolytes are slow posters, then no matter how eager their trainer is, he'll never get all that training done in time. Plus, setting a short time limit would make them want to rush as many recruits through training at once as is possible, and that just suuucks.

Actually, on that note, should we ask people -not make it a rule, but ask/strongly suggest- that nobody takes more than two or three padawans/acolytes/whatever at a time? Training should, in general, be a character-building experience, with care and thought put into posts from both master and trainee, and you don't get that if the master is training so many people that it becomes a chore to post in all the training threads.

 

[Ru the Boatswain]

The thing is, no one wants to build a character. People just want to be knight an pwn noobs.

 

[Jiang Winters]

They should at least have the oppurtunity to develop their character, but they won't get that chance if their master is training dozens of people.

 

[Lavi]

Imposing a time limit is an enormous problem, as Hakim pointed out. Sheo's suggestion of the number of people trained is an interesting notion, though if the faction doesn't get many recruits/initiates, that would also produce a bit of an issue. In the case that there is a great abundance of initiates, this would work great, but I can't see this being a long-term rule.

EDIT: Having people write up their own training is best a last-resort implementation, when people cannot find masters. Part of the training is so that the newbies can get familiar with some of the veterans and start getting molded into the SWRP (though I hate training because most newbies have very boring characters :<).

 

[Ols]

I think that all new members should go through training the first time the join a faction like the Jedi or Dark Jedi. It's an induction to the RP here, and a good way for them to familiarise themselves with how things are done. It also prepares them for what sorts of things they need to do when it comes to them to train someone, and similarly it helps them understand the faction they've joined and how to RP the character within that faction. They gain experience in the RP, they get to develop their character and they build up their rapport with their trainer, a member here who has been here long enough to have gone through it themselves at the very least.

If there was a sudden influx of initiates where there were literally not enough masters for students then I could agree to some people being rushed through training or even skipping it, but this is extremely unlikely to happen.

Part of the problem here is that people cannot be arsed to train. We need perhaps to put more incentives for masters when they complete the training of an apprentice. We should also stipulate that all members of a faction of Knight level and above should make an effort to train at least one apprentice and if they don't it may lead to them being looked over in promotions or even in being asked to partake in missions (the more people do for the faction, the more the faction will entrust them with responsibility and activity in the RP).

 

[Jaqen H'ghar]

Honestly I can only think of a handful of people who viewed going through training as enjoyable. I get constant complaints in my inbox about it, and in the time I've been here have heard way more complaining about training than anything else. I don't see how there needs to be an induction to RP. I mean if that was the case everyone would need training, yet when I started out I used a non-force sensative character and hopped right into the RP which is what most people end up doing when they go through bogan/jedi training. They get so fed up with wanting to get to where they can have a decent character (because lets be honest, you can't be a padawan and RP anything worthwhile because your very status is 'needs to be trained and can't do even the most basic of things')

The only people I ever hear the "it's an introduction to RP and the factions" arguement from are staff members.

Now, again I already covered the issue with slow posters in terms of padawans being slow in the other thread so I'll reiterate that here. If a padawan is slow to post, simply have that padawan send the faction leader a PM, or if the trainer notices that the padawan is slow to post, but the trainer is on more often then have them send a PM. The situation can simply be monitored by shooting a PM to the padawan asking if they've been busy lately and stating the reason for the inquirey is that Knight X is on a timelimit that can be extended if the padawan is unable to post often enough.

 

[Ru the Boatswain]

With that in mind. I'd like to change my master status requirements.

I'd like to make it X# of padawans trained to Master. What do you guys think? I was thinking training 3 would allow the rank of master which would be an incentive that is attainable in the short term which makes it more desirable.

 

[Ru the Boatswain]

I mean to double post here. I think there needs to be a statement put out explaining what training is ALONG WITH what a Padawan/Acolyte can be.

In SW Ep2 that Anakin is Obi-Wan's padawan. Clearly Anakin is skilled, but he is still a Padawan. He is also ready for Knighthood to a point. This shows us that a Padawan, wile not a master, is still a very capable Jedi on their own. Users should not be discouraged by their rank because it is not a measure of their padawans skill. If they've received enough training they should be able to at least survive in a duel against a higher level opponent.

 

[Jaqen H'ghar]

Aye, but no one see's it that way. It's like how in the main thread with the jedi vs bogan a bogan crusader would've been wiped out by a jedi master. We just kind of take it on a matter of principle for whatever reason. I agree with what you're saying Ru, but no one actually seems to view it that way.

 

[Jaqen H'ghar]

Double posted on purpose:

if we were to add the stipulation that the Padawan needs to be near the end of his training, say he's ten years into it and nearing knight/crusaderhood, that might make people more inclined to RP with them outside of the training threads, and give them more interesting characters...It'd be a good compromise, it'd give them most of the skills of a jedi knight or bogan crusader, give them the ability to RP outside of the training threads. Say the first page would have to be of when they first joined the respective order, then everything after that can be the time warp to ten years later. That way they are introduced to their respective codes, and the basics of each order...

 

[Lavi]

Double posted on purpose:

if we were to add the stipulation that the Padawan needs to be near the end of his training, say he's ten years into it and nearing knight/crusaderhood, that might make people more inclined to RP with them outside of the training threads, and give them more interesting characters...It'd be a good compromise, it'd give them most of the skills of a jedi knight or bogan crusader, give them the ability to RP outside of the training threads. Say the first page would have to be of when they first joined the respective order, then everything after that can be the time warp to ten years later. That way they are introduced to their respective codes, and the basics of each order...

I would agree that would make greater incentive to RP as a padawan in the Story board, but how often does a padawan travel about without a master?

 

[Jaqen H'ghar]

I would agree that would make greater incentive to RP as a padawan in the Story board, but how often does a padawan travel about without a master?

In the movies Anakin was given a mission to protect amidala as a padawan without kenobi. In the books it happens all the time. In episode one Kenobi and Qui-gon were separated in various parts of the movie.

 

[Ols]

That's exactly the point. People should be using their padawans in the RP. There is nothing wrong with that. The problem isn't the fact that training itself is the problem, it's the trainers. Most people training look at it as a chore, they want to get it over and done with and don't make much effort above the bare minimum. Training shouldn't be about just going through the code and force powers and lightsaber combat and then patting the trainee on the back and saying have a rank. Both sides would actually get much more out of it by actually doing stuff.

Nowhere near enough impetus is put upon the importance of padawans actually going out, with or without their masters, and doing stuff. Part of that comes down to the fact that there's not enough opportunity. I sent both of you guys a PM a while ago encouraging you to put specific missions up for padawans, and even to do a couple between you which would involve both Padawans and Acolytes interacting with one another. Most of the missions that have ever been posted here require knights and masters, but at the end of the day the missions are mostly going to more interest from padawans. Most knights are happy to go off and sort out their own RPs, and that's also the case with masters, but often, as padawans are newer members, they don't.

There is a problem with people thinking "He's a master, so he can beat ALL of the knights." and "She's a knight so she can beat ALL of the padawans." If a padawan and a knight get in a fight, especially considering most knights on this site seem to be around the 18 year old mark (yeah), it's completely fifty fifty. If padawans are going out there, even if it's only simple stuff like escorting diplomats, or looking after NPC younglings, if it gets them RPing that's a good thing, and it'll make people less worried about the apparent stigma of being a "padawan" character.

 

[Ru the Boatswain]

Point taken, but I have another problem. Most missions turn out as 'nothing missions' where I've written a mission- like I did in the past- and it would be taken. After the mission is taken by some users they go off and start it. I don't really remember how far it gets, but I don't think any missions have ever been completed. They all stop because people just don't post. No one is really motivated by missions that are 'nothing.'

That's why it's easier to wait until I need something done and then make a mission thread about it.

 

[Brandon Rhea]

But then you have an inactive faction. As I've already made pretty clear, what you call "nothing" missions are better than no missions at all. People need something to do.

If they don't complete the mission, hold them accountable for it: consider it an in-character abandonment of the mission, for which there would be in-character consequences. In real life, you don't just get to go off on a mission and stop whenever you feel like it.

Here's an idea for a consequence: if they agree to take a mission and they don't complete it, then not only does that mission not count towards rank advancement but an additional mission will be required.

What I mean is this. Say you only had to complete 1 mission for a rank. They take the mission but don't complete it. That means they don't get to use that mission as their 1. If they don't complete it, though, and the circumstances were not outside of their control, then they would have to complete 2 missions to rank up instead of 1.

I think that's a fair incentive for completion.