Reimagine Star Wars.

Kaeb

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I booted up my old laptop to get a file a couple months back, and this forum was in a tab in Firefox, which made me shudder, because firefox.

Anyway, that's when I posted once or twice about the recent movie and that was it really. I'm not as into Star Wars as I used to be, but I still enjoy talking concepts and stories with peeps, so I had a question for you guys, because it's probably my last vested interest. It seems like one of the main things that causes contention in discussions among this fandom, is that everyone seems to have their own version and their own interpretation on what this big beast Star Wars is. The recent EU debacle notwithstanding. This is essentially a thread asking you to present your own perfect version of what Star Wars would be. Anything you would change, add, remove or retain. Entire characters, races (genocide?), and story arcs are fair game basically.

Now I know mine is pretty simple, disregard everything but the OT and I guess, meh, throw in TFA except for it's mention of Sith and Kylo being another angry white dude in a black cloak with a red saber (that's important I'll come back to it). And that's really it for me. The only thing that bothers me about not just Star Wars but stories in general, is how an interesting concept or design is presented narratively or aesthetically in a way that could be done better.

My original interpretation of Jedi and Sith - after their EU and Prequel introductions - (they were never mentioned once in the OT and turned up in a draft in the script and that was it, as nothing but a title for Darth Vader) was much more broad and vague. They did not all look like design clones of Obi Wan. White dudes in brown/white/beige robes with primary colour lightsabers. What's even worse is that Jedi also became monotone, stoic, monk like entities with no personalities or interesting traits.

Break it all down to it's basic tenants as a young kid, I thought of them more like wandering Samurai/Ronin/Cowboys, scouring the frontier helping the helpless, even accepting food, shelter, hell maybe even money in return, they would definitely NOT be an organised entity with temples or statues in their image, there might be places of power sure, but that's really it. They're more like superheroes, not a police force or a church. The reason they help, is kind of the same idea behind Superman, they discover a power within them, which makes them feel responsibility for it. I thought of the Force more like a mysterious aspect, like a wind only they were feeling, a performance enhancing drug, like Jedi where lightning rods in a storm. You could think of it like they discovered nuclear energy, they were using it to help people, but if they dug too deep, it would erode them, until they exploded. This is what I thought Palpatine and Vader were. Men who looked too far into the abyss until it hollowed them out and made them slaves to it, like drug addicts, completely irrational, lacking empathy, just seeking more and more power again and again. This makes them far more interesting, emotional and tragic as characters. In terms of them both wearing black, it made sense because it was part of the IMPERIAL aesthetic. Nazi intimidation tactics. Sleakness etc.

In my version, not all Jedi would have lightsabers and Sith coooooouuuld still be used as a word, but not for an organised faction of evil dudes, but for the Jedi who lost, who fell into the dark deep recesses of the Force. And hell, a Jedi could use a red lightsaber if they wanted. And a fallen Jedi could use a white one if they wanted. It doesn't matter. The trick is not simplifying things into cartoon monopolies.

Jedi could use other weapons with sci fi flares, like staff weapons with concussive impact technology like the Graivty Hammer from the Halo games, or shield weapons, or even blasters. Star Wars was always more rag tag than that, it was practically drenched in old western lawless, gritty tonality and aesthetics.

So yeah, that's my perfect version. What's yours?
 

Tsunami

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Okay so regardless of what everyone thinks of episodes I, II and III I'd like to start by saying that overall I liked them. I remember as a kid i got shown the first saga on VHS and i watched it so many times that it ruined the copies we had.

If i could change a few things it would be this -

1) Darth Maul was not just a character they brought in to be "cool" and then threw him away. If i had it my way i would have had him and obi-wans duel come to a stalemate. Then i would have had him causing trouble during the clone wars. I might even have scrapped Dooku all together, I'd have much preferred to see Yoda vs Maul imo. I just found that the way they threw away Sith Lords to further the plot one of the most unattractive things, can you imagine if they'd done that in the first saga, Vader gets killed then another guy comes and gets killed etc.

2) I would have had more explanations into things. Until TCW series i had no idea who this random dude was that sanctioned the creation of clones. I feel like again it was all this stuff glazed over

3) I wished they hadn't glossed over Order 66. I'd have loved to see a last stand by the Jedi, maybe them all congregating and having an all Jedi offensive like on geonisis. That was a huge moment for me as a fan to watch all these heroic guys and girls be systematically wiped out, but without even much of a fight, i'd have liked to see Yoda not be so much of a bitch in the end and stick around to fight Sidious again.

4) On the subject of Sidious, i just didn't get the feeling he was very powerful. He kept up with Yoda and we know he was powerful in that respect however this guy was meant to be one of the most powerful force users ever and they just kind of made the fight seem ordinary.

I personally feel that my biggest gripe was the death of Darth Maul. Wasting a dude who had been helping palpatine from the shadows for so long, someone who had also met Darth Plagues. Far more skilled than count Dooku was. Even if it was Maul who died in the first initial battle above Coruscant, I'd have been happy. Generally though I like the Star Wars we have been handed the good vs bad, the ideas that evil shouldn't be aloud to win regardless of the cost. I don't know I like that stuff.
 

Marf

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Last time I voiced my opinion on this board I ended up in tears. Not looking for a debate, just some musing with fellow dreamers. So, -deep breath- here goes:

I'm not interested in any part of Star Wars except for the Sith, so they are the one thing I'd re-imagine completely. I cannot stand how they are portrayed in canon and legends, it pains me to see so much great potential wasted in favor of cartoonish, overly-serious demi-gods.

I'd remove the Rule of Two entirely. It is literally worse than the prequels and I'm embarrassed to admit it exists. It's ridiculous, not realistic and almost totally disallows for the kind of setting I'm about to describe:

I'm fascinated and repulsed by rigid, hierarchical societies as we see in the real world, which is why the Sith appeal to me. I wish to see them portrayed more like a real-life morally atrocious organization or society, as opposed to PG-13 supervillains. Many of whom would just be normal, unfortunate human beings who just happened to be trapped in an abhorrent world. Others would be more overtly malicious or cruel, but they would all have different ways of adapting to such an outright extreme way of life. I want to see loads of Sith, of different ranks, classes and dispositions, laugh, cry, explore romance, deal with health and sexuality, experiment with drugs, mess up, dick around their mates and obviously, cope with the terrible actions of their fellow Sith. Just be normal people who don't give a crap about ruling the galaxy because they have heavier, more personal things to worry about, which is how I like to write my Sith on SWRP and offline.

I want to see life from their point of view. I'd also remove the corrupting nature of the Dark Side to instead see the social and psychological effects being a member of the Sith, a fucking horrible society has on people, rather than them being twisted by some supernatural entity, which I've always found completely stupid.

I'm not terrified or abhorred by how they are in canon/legends, because they're just not real.

I don't like clear cut "good vs. evil" or "dark vs. light" stories, which is why Star Wars as a whole doesn't interest me much anymore. I hate how juvenile, black and white and comically wholesome it is in many respects, it bores me to tears. I need more challenging, meatier content to trigger my senses. Don't get me wrong, I ADORE the world-building, aesthetics and established concepts and lore, I just dislike the stories and characters told from that, so I use the setting pf the Sith Order as a base for my own stories and characters. I write an obscene amount of Sith fanon, but I rarely ever enjoy canon or legends material these days because I just don't like any of it, with the exceptions of the OT, TFA and a bit of SWTOR. I can't stand the prequels or TCW.

I wish Star Wars was a psychological tragedy or adult drama in a fantastical setting, rather than a space opera. I wish it had an MA15+ rating. I want multiple points of view and no obvious protagonists or antagonists. I want to see gritty, real-life issues explored. That will never happen, obviously, so I'll just use my imagination instead of getting upset about it.

The Sith in particular have the potential to be a setting for some harrowing, intensely complex, heavily emotional stories, but alas, the genre/target audience is what is it is, so there's no use complaining. I'll just continue to do what I do best and write, so I can enjoy it in my own world.
 
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Fen Vel

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Its a tough one really.

I mean regarding the films, the prequels had moments sure but if I was to boil it down, it needed plot. Well at least a singular goal.

When it boils down to it, regardless of everything else, The Phantom Menace should have been just that. Lost in all those trade deals, talking and side stories is buried, the return on the Sith. The Jedi for the most part have been balling about the galaxy doing their thing and things have been somewhat okay when something they didn't expect happens, a plot starts to build against them from within what they are protecting. Honestly the first two prequels are about the Rise of Palpatine and his machinations, we needed more hints of those, more clues, more wonder we know what happens twenty years from then but how? Can we have a plot on Naboo yes, events on Tatoonine, sure. However the focus of this movie was missed to me and it took an entire other movie to try and get back on top of the story it wanted to tell.

So we have Palpatine, his plot in motion and now, Attack of the Clones (needed a way better title, Darkness Within?) we have the story of Anakin and we learn about this character and how he wanted to protect so badly he fell to the darkside and was used by Palpatine who if it was up to me is morally gray but since its a Star Wars movie, evil is fine. He should fall just at the end of this film.

Now, Revenge of the Sith. Two hours of Jedi being betrayed, frantic last stands and the change of a Republic to an Empire, its dark, grim, sad. It does everything it can to add weight and menace to the Empire and what it did so that it carries through to the original trilogy and compliments it. Maybe something about how some elements of the Separatists were right all along. I mean the events in all three films can happen almost the same way but they need a wider context that is there, but washed over. The heroes of this trilogy, lost but it didn't feel like it in the slightest. There are thousands of nits I could pick but this sums it up.

Other than that, lose the Ewoks.

@Kaeb
I agree with you on the Jedi, which is why I'm doing everything I can to try to change that trope with my charcter.
 

Kaeb

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Okay so regardless of what everyone thinks of episodes I, II and III I'd like to start by saying that overall I liked them.

Uhhhh cool? That's not what this is about. I hated everything about them except Ewan McGregor and John Williams. Literally nothing else in them is worth anything of value to me personally, but to each his own. We can disagree, but this isn't about the prequels. It's about presenting your perfect Star Wars.

''Darth Maul was not just a character etc.''
Darth Maul wasn't a character. At all. He was a drawing, thrown at the screen. 0% substance or quality.

As for Darth Vader, yes he was very much also the muscle/warrior archetype initially, but then he was provided with a more involve character arc. I think if we boil it down, you literally just wanted a better more consistent villain. And yeah, I agree with you, we could've used that. Along with a lot of other things.

''I would have had more explanations into things. Until TCW series i had no idea etc.''
That's one of the main pillar issues of those fireworks displays that people call movies, others call the prequels. Everything that needs to be explained that bares relevance should be explained IN YOUR MOVIE, not in six novels and ten other comic books.

''I wished they hadn't glossed over Order 66. I'd have loved to see a last stand by the Jedi, maybe them all congregating and having an all Jedi offensive like on geonisis. That was a huge moment for me as a fan to watch all these heroic guys and girls be systematically wiped out, but without even much of a fight, i'd have liked to see Yoda not be so much of a bitch in the end and stick around to fight Sidious again.''
Well firstly, Order 66 is the stupidest cartoonish name for anything ever. Even the Death Star is pushing it but that works in universe as an intimidation tactic, Order 66 sounds like a comic book written by a 7 year old. And yeah....that was a huge moments when all of those talking heads or ''jedi characters' that we knew nothing about and cared nothing about and saw for seconds at time were all killed in a depiction that was almost entirely computer generated for a brief montage.

When I spoke with Bac about this before, he agreed that what the fall of the Jedi should have been was this:

Aragorn walking back into the Council of Elrond at the end of the Lord of the Rings trilogy, and suddenly slaughtering everyone.

Can you imagine how incredibly shocking and gut wrenching that would be? We knew and spent time with all of these characters, they both affected the plot and were affected by the plot. That's how the fall of the Jedi should've been depicted.

On the subject of Sidious, i just didn't get the feeling he was very powerful. He kept up with Yoda and we know he was powerful in that respect however this guy was meant to be one of the most powerful force users ever and they just kind of made the fight seem ordinary.
Well his first problem is that they named him Sidious. Because...I shouldn't even have to say it.
Secondly, it should of been either a small moment, or a clash of Titans. Not a pathetic cartoony lightsaber battle. Yoda should never have had a lightsaber. It doesn't suit his archetype, neither does it suit the Emperor's, he insulted lightsabers in the Original trilogy. It should've been a scene that brought entire buildings to the ground, weakening Yoda so much that he had to run away. Maybe the reason Yoda encounters Palpatine, is because he had sent Jedi to confront him, realizing it was to be a trap, he brings down an entire building to protect them in battle of the Force with Palpatine, is weakned by it and then flees.

Last time I voiced my opinion on this board I ended up in tears.
Well this is the internet pal, you'll probably have to develop some thick skin.

'' SIIIIITH STUFFF ''
I'm not quire sure what you were getting at here...so what are the Sith in your vision here exactly? Are they an organised element? Are they similar to my concept? Which is essentially more Lovecraftian, men who saw too much and it drove them mad.
NEEEEEEEDSSS MORE PLOTTTT
Other than that, lose the Ewoks.
@Kaeb
I agree with you on the Jedi, which is why I'm doing everything I can to try to change that trope with my charcter.

I agree with you too. And yeah I would have rathered a rag tag group of intimidating barbarian types, the clash of technology versus a primitive people is a good concept...it just should not have been a race of teddy bears tbh. Like it was originally going to be Wookies, but why leave it there? Why not have it be multiple different tribes of different races forced to abandon their differences and band together to protect their homeworld? Makes the Rebellion look a little better to if they not only protected a planet, but united it's people.
 

Tsunami

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@Kaeb
My perfect Star Wars is almost the one we had... That's what I am saying. I don't presume to have the genius that George Lucus had to do what he did, I think what I have could have been a little better, the things I put down the are the things things I'd have like to see. I didn't want Darth Maul to be thrown away.

In the end, Star Wars is different things to different people, some people are happy with what they got, some people try to change it and it becomes something else but the only things I would change are the things I have listed.
 

Kaeb

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George Lucas wasn't a genius, he had an initial idea that OTHER people made into far better, more nuanced and developed ideas, designs, arcs and tones. When it was Lucas in control, we got the prequels, but this doesn't have to be about just that. And....thanks for stating the obvious I guess? I know it's different to different people, that's literally my opening to the thread mate.

I addressed all of your points in detail to see if they could be made better. That's what this thread is about too, to see if we can collaborate on reimaginings, maybe find a world we can settle for, or at least some common thematic or narrative ground with what we like.
The majority of us seem mostly in agreement so far.
 

Marf

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I'm not quire sure what you were getting at here...so what are the Sith in your vision here exactly? Are they an organised element? Are they similar to my concept? Which is essentially more Lovecraftian, men who saw too much and it drove them mad.
I wasn't really getting at any particular setting, but rather the general way in which Sith are portrayed. I'll be more specific though.

I would like to see the Sith as a large, organized society who rule a powerful Empire. Their order is rigidly hierarchical and divided into three classes. While I really dig your idea of the Jedi being much less organized and more like wandering travelers, I believe it makes sense for the Sith to be far more structured and socially complex, because it's their nature to be oppressive, fascistic and to segregate each other for petty reasons such as differing skillsets. Sorcerers would be the nobles and artisans who rule the Empire, Assassins are the intelligence and espionage sect and Warriors are the soldiers and cannon-fodder. In the project I'm currently working on, the Imperial royal family functions as a separate governing sect to the Sith order, and consists of the Emperor, his concubines and their children.

There would be millions of Sith, not just two or a few hundred, all from different walks of life and all with different personalities. Many would be good people who see the wrong in the Empire, but are trapped in it regardless and have no other option but to deal with their prison and make it a home. Others would succumb to the lifestyle to be become cruel, terrible figures. I believe that larger the Order is, the more room there would be for a diverse amount of characters. I envision it quite like the social brutality and intense backstabbing of Game of Thrones, with a clusterf-ck of interrelationships and viewpoints, scandal and sexual intrigue, with many characters who are genuinely likable and good, but just as likely to betray their friends in order to survive. A world where it's impossible to pick a side because nobody is trustworthy.

The cultural aesthetics and social elements of Sith culture would differ greatly depending on the class. The Victorian-gothic Sorcerers are the obscenely rich, debauched aristocrats who gain their power off the degradation and misery of other beings. Japanese Ninja-esque Assassins are the disciplined, austere martial artists who swear vows of chastity and poverty in order to prove their devotion to their arts. Militaristic Warriors are the hyper-futuristic cyborg soldiers who have been oppressed and tortured by their rulers, who inevitably go renegade and rebel against their old stagnant Empire. I think it would be fascinating and harrowing to watch characters - human beings, struggle to live and function within such a rigid structure.

On the other hand, I think it would be a cool contrast to have the wandering, ronin-esque Jedi next to the regal, intensely organized Sith Empire. Though I guess that was essentially the way in the OT, I'd just like the Sith to have a more profound, cultural presence, as opposed to how they were during the Galactic Empire. I never liked the way they were kept hiding in the shadows, wearing all black and being ominous, I'd to see them idolized and adored as celebrities, romantic heroes and fashion icons in propaganda posters and magazines. They would be beautiful and awe-inspiring to the average civilian, when the reality would be the profound opposite.

Also... I would like to see stories beyond just the boring "Jedi vs. Sith pewpew lightsabers". I want to see different genres and themes explored. I'm currently writing a romance about my Sith Warrior and her girlfriend, who is an Imperial concubine. It's set during the outbreak of a Republic/Empire war, and is styled like a classic wartime-era love story. I've used alot of 1940s aesthetics in regards to the Imperial military and Sith Warriors.

I really like your Lovecraftian idea, and it reminds me of my own idea of the Dark Side and the Sith obsession with immortality. It's more like an illicit drug, rather than a supernatural entity, and the Sorcerer Class get hooked on it and elapse into madness and decadence. They drain the essences of human beings to prolong their own lives, but ultimately poison their bodies and minds in the process. It shouldn't be "badass" or awesome though, it should be unnerving and gross, and really hit home just how much the Sith and the Dark Side suck.

fuck, I want an R-rated drama just about the Sith. Not possible, but I won't stop dreaming.
 
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Tristyn

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I like Star Wars.
Really? You guys should be 'liking' people like Marf's posts. She at least puts the time into writing a detailed and relevant post, but instead you prefer to 'like' Raydo's rather irrelevant post.
 

Raydo

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Really? You guys should be 'liking' people like Marf's posts. She at least puts the time into writing a detailed and relevant post, but instead you prefer to 'like' Raydo's rather irrelevant post.

Well, I will start off by saying that likes don't really mean anything, and I will argue that my post was far more relevant to the topic than your rather rude post. The topic of the thread is about what our "perfect" version of Star Wars is. I was stating that I am a fan of the lore around the Star Wars Universe that has been established in the movies, television shows, novels, and comic books. The movies scope of time is very small so I wouldn't use them to judge the Star Wars Universe as a whole (Though I am major fan of the movies)

I have actually read Marf's take on the Sith and her "Dream" culture, and I think it is awesome. I don't know if it could fundamentally be Star Wars, but I think she is super creative and enjoy reading through her stuff. I don't have to a hit a "like" button for me to value someones ideas or stories.

The point of the thread was to voice an opinion, and that is what I did. I like the portrayals of the Sith and their reclusive plotting, The Jedi and their decaying Order, and really everything that comes with the lore of Star Wars. Maybe its because I lack the creativity of some of my fellow RPers, and I am fine with that.

Did I post it in a somewhat sarcastic way? Probably (but that is pretty par for the course).
 

Raydo

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I liked it because it was funny and because it poked fun at the over-serious nature of SWRP's annual "reimagine Star Wars" discussion.

Everything I do on this site is serious, Brandon. Every. Single. Thing.
 

Marf

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I hope people didn't interpret my posts as overly serious. I'm very passionate about my Sith stuff and just like talking about it! So I was very happy to see this thread. I don't like to debate hard points or argue, I just like imaginative musing.
 

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Now let me say this (rambles on and on about how little he knows about Star Wars) and that's all I got to say about that.

So why I dislike Starwars? Here's my main reasons.
  1. Good vs Evil
  2. Chosen ones
  3. Same damn thing over and over
Now to address point one.

I hate black and white stories, black and white morality, black and white characters. I like the varying shades of grey, whether that be a lighter shade of grey, a darker shade of grey or simply grey. Which that's hard to attain in a universe filled with clear cut good and bad guys. I mean its even in the Force, the most powerful thing in the universe. We have the Light Side and the Dark Side, which sucks.

I wish we had Good-Bad guys and Bad-Good guys. Jedi are so "let's help the weak and poor who can't defend themselves." I'm all like "NO you don't know those people man." The Sith say "let's burn down this village because we can!" I'm all like "NO man that's mean."

Now my second point.

I'll just be quick on this point, and this does not really apply to Starwars only. But Starwars does this a lot. Like why does fiction adventure stories rely on "The prophecy" "The Chosen One" "The Savior" "The Great Good Guy/Girl" I don't know. I hate that.

My third point.

I'll address later, I gtg.
 

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Now let me say this (rambles on and on about how little he knows about Star Wars) and that's all I got to say about that.

So why I dislike Starwars? Here's my main reasons.
  1. Good vs Evil
  2. Chosen ones
  3. Same damn thing over and over
Now to address point one.

I hate black and white stories, black and white morality, black and white characters. I like the varying shades of grey, whether that be a lighter shade of grey, a darker shade of grey or simply grey. Which that's hard to attain in a universe filled with clear cut good and bad guys. I mean its even in the Force, the most powerful thing in the universe. We have the Light Side and the Dark Side, which sucks.

Hope you don't think I'm singling you out, but I clicked the thread, it showed me the most recent post, y'know. And I have to say, with that viewpoint, I'm surprised you were ever attracted to Star Wars to begin with. The staunch moralities and aversion to grey approaches is a staple and pillar of the Star Wars mythos. If I might guess/ask, were you drawn in by Mandalorians or basically non-Force sensitive characters?
 
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