Sequel Fight Scenes.

[Kaeb]

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Can they be like this please?

I've talked about this a lot before, but fight scenes from The Raid 2 just started to pop up online, so now I can actually post them.

If they convinced Iko Uwais and Gareth Evans to consult on the fight choreography I would lose my mind, but unfortunately I'm already expecting typical Hollywood fare, which involves way too many disjointed edits and obvious stunt double work.

Because if a Jedi fought like this on screen, I'd probably wet myself.

Can you imagine what that a scene like that might be like? With Lightsabers and other Sci Fi gadgetry?

Never mind me, a film buff, the general public would lose their minds.

 

[Brandon Rhea]

That would be cool. With Pip Andersen, we can expect parkour too.

 

[Kaeb]

I added some more of the scenes, just watching even one of those videos would articulate my point better than any description I could make.

I wonder if they'll focus more on tension, focus and pacing this time around. Those are more central to these kinds of things, because despite what people remember, there are a lot of integral fight scenes to the OT, fight scenes that both involved and influenced the plot. Fight scenes make up most of the movies best moments tbh.

They're more important to the Star Wars brand than many other elements.

 

[Brandon Rhea]

As long as they're important, yeah. Most of the major fight scenes of the prequels could be removed without actually affecting the plot that much.

 

[Kaeb]

The Raid 2 is like that as well.

About halfway through the film, three consecutive fight sequences that are all equally relevant to the overall narrative, are all shown in the space of the same six minutes and the cuts between them aren't distracting but engaging. As one crime syndicate basically overthrows another.

Every fight involving the main protagonist, is relevant to both their character, their arc and the overall narrative. There's also a secondary character that comes in as a plot element before the halfway mark, whose involvement in the fight scenes actually makes them a sympathetic character, whose fate later on in another fight scene, is way more dramatic and impactful than anything in the prequels, and it's a fight in an empty night club (with no music or flashing lights, which thankfully defies convention) and then an alleyway in the snow, that lasts barely four minutes.

I'm hopeful, that the impact this and the original film have had on filmmakers, has a wide berth, and it's recognized by those working behind the sequels as something to pay attention to, given that it's pretty much recognized as the best martial arts work to come out in almost a decade of the medium.

Imaging fight scenes like this, but in a Sci Fi setting with Sci Fi elements involved, it gives me a mindboner.

 

[Cainhurst Crow]

These were some pretty well shot fight sequences, though I think the difference between hollywood sequences and these sequences is a bit overblown, its simply a closer shot and a slower paced sequence, nothing earth shatteringly different nor that radically altering of quality, imo. Still, would be awesome to see fights take from this, and again in my opinion, game of thrones, which these fights remind me a lot of in their pacing a way the action is shot/framed close and steady.

Also that there are relevant fights as well, those are very good points raised and I agree with them a lot, even if I do enjoy myself a good prequel fight scene as a not so guilty pleasure.

 

[Kaeb]

These were some pretty well shot fight sequences,

Yup.

though I think the difference between hollywood sequences and these sequences is a bit overblown

Nope.

its simply a closer shot and a slower paced sequence,

Actually, no.

It's not simply 'a closer shot', there isn't just one or even simply two things that Yayan Rufian, Iko Uwais and Gareth Evans do here, there are multiple different techniques they utilize, that are in some cases adapted and influenced by previous titans of the genre - surprisingly one of the big influences apart from Japanese crime dramas, was Jackie Chan's early work, even some of his more obscure and comical films - and in other cases, completely fresh takes.

The scenes themselves 90% of the time involve seasoned martial artists whose work is all being shown in camera and entirely within the shot at all times. This means that there are no awkward edits to accommodate stunt doubles or inexperienced actors, what you see is what you get. The fights themselves have some actual pacing to them, actual tension and actual build up to increasingly more complex and violent sequences. Best of all, each violent act actually has consequences, with each blow, each cut and each bullet actually having an impact on the bodies you see in combat. Nearly every effect is also accomplished in camera, with any digital effect either being simple touch ups, skyboxes or digital blood and gun flares for the sake of their budget. They also use tracking shots a lot, which utilize a wide lens and stay on the actors for long single shots as a fight unfolds, rarely cutting away at all from that single shot, unless it's for close ups, which ALSO involve actual choreography with the actors actually connecting with one another completely within the shot instead of faking the effect. So it literally feels like you're witnessing the main protagonist break limbs and slit throats all in one single shot without cutting away to simulate an action that you never see.

The reason these fights work better than Hollywood is because Hollywood rarely ever shows you the actual action that is taking place.

The Raid, shows you ****ing everything. Every brutal detail, and the choreography itself is incredible, especially in sequences that involve more than one person because there is a logic to how each fighter operates within the fight. One fighter is clearly subdued as two others fight one another, if a henchman isn't standing up to keep fighting, he's actually injured instead of just standing in the background like an idiot waiting for his turn.

nothing earth shatteringly different nor that radically altering of quality, imo.

Per above^

You are largely, wrong.

Still, would be awesome to see fights take from this, and again in my opinion, game of thrones, which these fights remind me a lot of in their pacing a way the action is shot/framed close and steady.

Game of Thrones unfortunately suffers from the exact same problems that Hollywood does, which is them constantly cutting away from the action itself, with a lot of shaky cam instead of steady tracking shots, in order trick you.

They don't use any cheap tricks in the Raid films.

Also that there are relevant fights as well, those are very good points raised and I agree with them a lot, even if I do enjoy myself a good prequel fight scene as a not so guilty pleasure.

I can't see how you can enjoy them.

They weren't fights. They were empty/boring fireworks displays.

If you think these sequences that I've shown you in those videos look just like anything else in Hollywood, then you're clearly not paying enough attention, and even at that, you shouldn't really have to in order to recognize the quality of the work.

 

[Cainhurst Crow]

I know you don't see how kaeb, that's just how it is/will be, even if I explained it. :P

It's like explaining why some people like the color blue and others like the color red. You can try and bring science, neural chemistry, psychologist and sociologists, and any number of attempted objective quantification into the mix, but in the end, it comes down to a simple preference and nothing greater then that.

EDIT: Also, not trying to start shit but I really can't see the difference between the three assassins clip and a GOT fight scene ((Jamie vs Eddard, Hound vs Beric, etc)), so yeah. I don't really see the type of hollywood stuff you're talking about, even when trying to spot them as close to frame by frame as I can with constant pause spamming and slow motion video settings on youtube.

So if its obvious to more then just a few of you guys then yeah, my eyes are just not that good at that kind of stuff.

 

[Brandon Rhea]

Game of Thrones isn't really indicative of Hollywood norms, because it's on HBO which means it can be as brutal as it wants to be. It doesn't have to censor itself for a network, or tame things down for the average moviegoer. But even then, there are fights on the show that are problematic. Oberyn vs. the Mountain had too many wide shots and too many cuts, despite the fact that no stunt doubles were used. Brienne vs. the Hound was really brutal, but it also suffered from too many quick cuts.

 

[Cainhurst Crow]

I just don't see whats wrong with quick cuts, and to me they don't kill any momentum in the sequence. Even luke vs vader had tons of quick cuts, especially going into return of the jedi. I do see what you guys are saying though, and I do agree that the way the shots were done in raid 2 would be a great way to go. I just don't see what makes them all that much better, even with the way they didn't quick cut as much.

 

[Brandon Rhea]

Quick cuts become a problem when you can barely see anything. You should be able to focus in on the moment, without being distracted by the editing. If the editing becomes noticeable then it's problematic editing.

 

[Noirceur]

That'd be wicked. I liked the ones in The Raid Redemption better, though. The only problem I can see is that wether we like it or not, the great part of SW fights revolve around lightsaber combat, and it'd be tough to pull scenes similar to these with weapons that cut off anything they touch.

 

[Cainhurst Crow]

Quick cuts become a problem when you can barely see anything. You should be able to focus in on the moment, without being distracted by the editing. If the editing becomes noticeable then it's problematic editing.

I see what you mean, yeah that could get pretty annoying, especially if you combine it with the godawful idea of shacky cam.

That'd be wicked. I liked the ones in The Raid Redemption better, though. The only problem I can see is that wether we like it or not, the great part of SW fights revolve around lightsaber combat, and it'd be tough to pull scenes similar to these with weapons that cut off anything they touch.

I think you could still pull it off pretty well, like the lady with the hammers one hit killing a lot of the guys or the guy with the bat. Just don't have people fall apart until after you get a few slices in like the baseball bat guy,((I really ought to see the other clips but I'm too lazy to click play :P)) and it should be good. That sort of delayed damage trope I think would work out pretty well in this scenario.

 

[Kaeb]

k.

I know you don't see how kaeb, that's just how it is/will be, even if I explained it. :P

No, you just need to be better at explaining things, or at the very least, you shouldn't make definitive statements about any medium unless you intend to support that statement with evidence or simply critical thought and awareness of the topic you're discussing. It's really not that hard mate.

It's like explaining why some people like the color blue and others like the color red. You can try and bring science, neural chemistry, psychologist and sociologists, and any number of attempted objective quantification into the mix, but in the end, it comes down to a simple preference and nothing greater then that.

No, it's more like pointing at a small village filled with about 95% bright blue houses (Hollywood) and about 5% navy houses (The Raid films), and you're stating that those navy houses are exactly like the bright blue houses.

When I said how they're not, you said it doesn't matter how you explain it. It does.

The fight scenes are not the same. They are really quite different on both a technical level and a cinematic level. I'm simply explaining that to you.

Also, not trying to start shit but I really can't see the difference between the three assassins clip and a GOT fight scene ((Jamie vs Eddard, Hound vs Beric, etc)), so yeah.

k.

Let me point it out to you:

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For the Eddard vs Jaime fight, it kicks in about 1:25 in this video. Immediately after the fight begins, from 1:25 to 1:28, there's about 15 edits and cuts alone. And that's before the sword fighting even begins. In The Raid movies, the cameraman allows the limbs, movements and actions of the fighters themselves to dictate the flow of the scene, rather than the cameraman obstructing it with his own movements and future edits that are out of sync with the actions and flow of the fighters at hand. They show you a brief shot of a Lannister soldier throwing a spear, they then show a quick cut of it in mid-air and then a quick shot of it going through someone. This series of cuts, in a technical sense, does illustrate the action of the kill taking place, but it doesn't actually show it. It tricks the viewer into believing they've seen it. It doesn't flow well, meanwhile in The Raid films, you witness each individual action taking place, without a single cut in the moment, we witness Prakoso walk up to a guy and snap his leg around his own body. We witness him crush a guys genitals and then snap his thigh all in one single shot.

In Hollywood's mainstream cinema, or in lower budget enterprises like GoT, there would have been six or seven edits in that one moment. The Raid films show you everything, in long flowing shots, or in shots that are so well edited and strung together, that they actually flow well.

Brienne vs The Hound unfortunately suffers from this too, it never actually feels like the swords really matter, because they're just wacking at each others swords, it barely feels like they're really trying to kill each other until they actually drop the swords. It also feels like the swords don't even cut people, because in both videos they hit stunt men with them like baseball bats, and almost always to the stomach, unless it's an awkward edit/cut to an amputation or a decapitation.

It's not terrible, it's not even that bad, but it's nowhere near as good both technically and cinematically, as the videos I showed you in the opening post.

I don't really see the type of hollywood stuff you're talking about, even when trying to spot them as close to frame by frame as I can with constant pause spamming and slow motion video settings on youtube.

Cut to 2:30 in this video:

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You can't see a ****ing thing Batman is doing as he fights dudes. It sounds like I should believe something awesome is happening, but it's a cheap trick Nolan uses because he hasn't a single clue how to shoot action. It's why Bale moves so slow and shambles through his fight sequences in TDK too.

Now compare all of the above videos in this post, to this scene:

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Now, do you see the difference?

So if its obvious to more then just a few of you guys then yeah, my eyes are just not that good at that kind of stuff.

I'm trying to help with that mate, as best I can.

I just don't see whats wrong with quick cuts, and to me they don't kill any momentum in the sequence. Even luke vs vader had tons of quick cuts, especially going into return of the jedi. I do see what you guys are saying though, and I do agree that the way the shots were done in raid 2 would be a great way to go. I just don't see what makes them all that much better, even with the way they didn't quick cut as much.

They do.

Unless the fight itself doesn't matter to the moment, if the characters and the emotions overwrite the scene, then it can be a terribly done fight and it won't matter nearly as much. To that point, the fights in the OT, mostly in the first film, are terrible, but they're largely saved in editing and the emotion and characterisation involved within the fights.

They could have been immensely better with this kind of choreography and camera work. I'm positing that if you combined this film ethic, with what they did in the OT, in the ST, it'll be incredible.

I see what you mean, yeah that could get pretty annoying, especially if you combine it with the godawful idea of shacky cam.

Exactly.

This just flows incredibly better. It's more effective.

It's great.

I think you could still pull it off pretty well, like the lady with the hammers one hit killing a lot of the guys or the guy with the bat. Just don't have people fall apart until after you get a few slices in like the baseball bat guy,((I really ought to see the other clips but I'm too lazy to click play :P)) and it should be good. That sort of delayed damage trope I think would work out pretty well in this scenario.

The scene where Prakoso fights those guys without once using his machete is a good example, you could show a Jedi subduing people he or she does not need to kill, while his lightsaber is ignited as he or she approaches a foe they DO need to kill.

 

[Kaeb]

I added the first fight from The Raid 2 to the top of my opening post, because in my opinion it's one of the most underrated fights of the movie on a purely technical level. It literally shows you every single movement, you see Rama drive his fist ****ing six times into a guys nuts before breaking his larynx and then finally subduing him.

In Hollywood, they would have cut to a close shot of an actor moving their fist, then they would have cut a shot of that fist against the other guys groin, and then a cut to a reaction shot. It's stilted, broken and disingenuous. It's bad choreography and even worse camera work.

It's a cheap trick, basically.

 

[Brandon Rhea]

I like the editing style. I mean, obviously Star Wars shouldn't be that brutal, but taking a page from that editing would be cool to avoid camera tricks.

 

[Kaeb]

That's essentially what I'm positing.

Massive projects that involve fight sequences, like this new trilogy will, should be taking into account more current techniques that are being utilized in new and exciting ways within the medium. Most filmmakers worth their salt do this all of the time, constantly making themselves aware of what's breaking new ground within their craft. The most obvious example, comes from overseas martial arts work, and at the top of the game right now are The Raid films. If they used the same elaborate, flowing choreography ethic, similar editing and shooting styles, then the fights that are likely to take place within this trilogy, will be far more thrilling, believable and exciting than your typical Hollywood fare.

The Prakoso and Hallway fight scenes in the opening post are great examples because they involve both basic hand to hand combat and weaponry. In picturing something like a Jedi vagabond taking down a bunch of worthless criminals with non-lethal fighting techniques as they approach an enemy that needs to be killed in order to protect everyone else, I find that to be a pretty thrilling prospect.

 

[Brandon Rhea]

Agreed.

You should reply to my PM.

 

[Kaeb]

Done.

 

[TwoSidedHeart]

Eh...