'State of the RP' feedback thread

[Green Ranger]

There is no penalty for a Force user using kit that doesn't belong to their chosen class, leading to jack-of-all-trade characters that don't really fit the spirit and nuances of Star Wars. Personally speaking, I don't think a Sith or Jedi should need a rifle, jetback, grenades, et cetera to compete, but they do. It isn't right and doesn't fit Star Wars. It's more about having the best equipment to win than it is about playing a character the way it's meant to be played.

It's not even just Force users though. While I'd argue Force users have been increasingly doing this out of necessity, non-force users are equally overloaded with gear and there's no real penalty for it right now IMHO. Essentially the amount of tech that's acceptable for any character to wear at any given time needs to have some sort of ceiling to it.

 

[Roen]

I don't believe in a ceiling, or cap. I believe you should be allowed to play your character however you feel, be they the figuratively armored tank, glass canon, dexterous swordsman, et cetera. What I am against is an armored tank that's a dexterous swordsman with enough cannons to blow out a wall, which is a lot of what I see.

People want it all, which is understandable. It just shouldn't be viable, and not only is it allowed, it is universally accepted.

 

[Dakota]

I'm not very "interested" in PvP just yet, it just doesn't really suit where my character is at this point in time, but that's neither here nor there. I don't necessarily mind Jedi or Sith using tech for themselves if they want. Especially when it comes to the Sith and the corruption that comes with the Dark Side, increasing reliance on technology should be a given for them as their bodies begin to disintegrate. Like Gamov said, technology is as integral to the Star Wars universe as the Force is, for those who are force sensitive and those who aren't (Vader's armor is easily the most recognizable part of his character, for example). However, I don't really think that Jedi or Sith should have to rely on having various gadgets, grenades and weapons in them in PvP threads just to survive.

To me, the entire point of playing a space wizard in a bathrobe is that they should be able to do what the traditional soldiers do and more by virtue of their training in the Force, and the fact that they have lightsabers. Giving them supernova grenades and bulky sets of armor only dillutes what they are, making them less "space wizard with a bit of armor and survival gear here and there" and more "grizzled, well armed fridge of a soldier that just so happens to be a space wizard." That may be the point, Jedi Army fighting a galactic war and all, but I still believe there are things inherent to the Force sensitive factions that should be preserved, like not necessarily needing to rely on technology just to be able to compete in PvP.

As for people overloading on technology, I may suggest adding in some kind of a weight limit for characters. Each set of super-soldier power armor, rifle and grenade should have a weight to it (as they do already), and the more you pack onto a character, the less mobile you become. That way, if you want to be an uber-powerful tank with a machine-gun, a few missile launchers in your toes and a flamethrower on your chest for good measure then you can, but you'd be about as mobile as an AT-AT. The more armor you wear and the more weapons you carry buffs up your defenses but takes a tire iron to your agility, and that translates into certain advantages and disadvantages in combat, as it would in real life. Like I said before, there are already weights listed on tech submissions, but it could be something that is either added to the rules or monitored by whoever rules on PvP disputes. Again, just a suggestion.

 

[Calixis]

It's not even just Force users though. While I'd argue Force users have been increasingly doing this out of necessity, non-force users are equally overloaded with gear and there's no real penalty for it right now IMHO. Essentially the amount of tech that's acceptable for any character to wear at any given time needs to have some sort of ceiling to it.

Non-Force users overload themselves with gear to even that playing field, otherwise they're putting themselves at a huge disadvantage. Right now, there are no downsides to using the Force beyond some vague guidelines about how after a certain point you're going to get tired. In a timeline where PvP - when in most cases PvP has the potential to result in permadeath - people are going to grab hold of every advantage they can get, be that Force user or otherwise. This really should not come as a surprise in any way, shape or form.

I could either make a Force-user and get all of the benefits of non-Force sensitive characters alongside of my Space Magic(tm).
Or.
I could make a non-Force user and... well, not get the Space Magic(tm).

Without technology, PvP posts would largely end up with posts largely consisting of non-Force sensitives shooting a few times, whilst the FU'er /e dodges the shots and sort of charges/flips/speeds at them, begin melee. Force users have the power of vaguely defined Space Magic(tm), whilst non-Force sensitives have the 'power' of clumsy cheatsheets of technology meant to find ways to level the playing field against Force users.

 

[Green Ranger]

I think the above actually touches on a really good point about faction and character identity, and that the rules being the way they are at the moment are really damaging that. I mean, you can't actually play a lightsaber-wielding jedi in robes right now because they get slaughtered. Similarly, you can't play a cloaked, hooded Sith who relies on the Dark Side of the Force because they too are gonna get straight up murdered in two posts.

When we're RPing in Star Wars, but we can't play the typical character archetypes like Palpatine or Luke Skywalker because they jsut get destroyed by power-armor-wearing juggernauts (aka something that's not supported by canon), then we're not really playing Star Wars anymore, are we?

Thanks, Dakota. Great contribution.

 

[Green Ranger]

Non-Force users overload themselves with gear to even that playing field, otherwise they're putting themselves at a huge disadvantage. Right now, there are no downsides to using the Force beyond some vague guidelines about how after a certain point you're going to get tired. In a timeline where PvP - when in most cases PvP has the potential to result in permadeath - people are going to grab hold of every advantage they can get, be that Force user or otherwise. This really should not come as a surprise in any way, shape or form.

I could either make a Force-user and get all of the benefits of non-Force sensitive characters alongside of my Space Magic(tm).

Or.

I could make a non-Force user and... well, not get the Space Magic(tm).

If this was any other timeline, you'd have a point. But the force as is, is currently so watered down that it is literally meaningless. It doesn't give you an advantage at all and has no impact on a battle.

That said, there is an underlying issue that needs to be addressed, but it can only be addressed once the Force actually has meaning again. Until then you're just proposing nerfing an already grossly underpowered area of the RP.

 

[Dakota]

Cal makes a good point, though. I unfortunately won't be able to respond just yet because I have to go to work, but I will when I get home.

 

[Calixis]

If this was any other timeline, you'd have a point. But the force as is, is currently so watered down that it is literally meaningless. It doesn't give you an advantage at all and has no impact on a battle.

That said, there is an underlying issue that needs to be addressed, but it can only be addressed once the Force actually has meaning again. Until then you're just proposing nerfing an already grossly underpowered area of the RP.

I'm not proposing that anything be nerfed. The PvP lovers here seem to like going on about how it's about 'writing the other person into a corner', no? I can't think of a much bigger advantage than the potential of some vaguely defined Space Magic(tm) that you can conjure up at a moment's notice, with the only real limitation being how well you describe it.

Compare that with technology, which by the demands of the site needs to have just about every advantage EXPLICITLY written down, checked and approved, then stapled onto a character sheet where if you overload on it - too much heavy ordinance, carrying too many grenades - you're going to get called out on it or actually rule that you have to take some of the gear off. Oh, and Force users can also run around with the same gear, as well as utilise their Space Magic(tm).

 

[Green Ranger]

I'm not proposing that anything be nerfed. The PvP lovers here seem to like going on about how it's about 'writing the other person into a corner', no? I can't think of a much bigger advantage than the potential of some vaguely defined Space Magic(tm) that you can conjure up at a moment's notice, with the only real limitation being how well you describe it.

Compare that with technology, which by the demands of the site needs to have just about every advantage EXPLICITLY written down, checked and approved, then stapled onto a character sheet where if you overload on it - too much heavy ordinance, carrying too many grenades - you're going to get called out on it or actually rule that you have to take some of the gear off. Oh, and Force users can also run around with the same gear, as well as utilise their Space Magic(tm).

Okay, but despite all of the above, the meta still favours tech users? And Force users who use tech predominantly do so because tech is still OP?

Like I said, if the Force was in a better place then you might have a point to be made there. But...it's not. So we can't address the issue that you're raising here (that force users can use just as much tech as a non-Force user with no penalty) until we get the Force into a position where it's actually meaningful in the RP again. Then, once we have a rough idea of just how powerful the Force is on its own, then you can tweak restrictions of tech for Force users.

tl;dr we need to actually figure out how powerful the Force is meant to be in the RP before we can balance it in regards to hybrid use with tech.

 

[Calixis]

Okay, but despite all of the above, the meta still favours tech users? And Force users who use tech predominantly do so because tech is still OP?

Like I said, if the Force was in a better place then you might have a point to be made there. But...it's not. So we can't address the issue that you're raising here (that force users can use just as much tech as a non-Force user with no penalty) until we get the Force into a position where it's actually meaningful in the RP again. Then, once we have a rough idea of just how powerful the Force is on its own, then you can tweak restrictions of tech for Force users.

tl;dr we need to actually figure out how powerful the Force is meant to be in the RP before we can balance it in regards to hybrid use with tech.

Non-Force users have the advantage of technology.
Force-users have the advantage of technology AND the Force.

The meta does not favour tech users, it favours Force users. It will always favour Force users because they can utilise both. The Force's rules could come down to "you can literally write one crappy power in a whole thread" and it would still always favour them. No, the Force may not be as powerful as you'd like it to be, but either way Force users are never at a disadvantage no matter how you swing this. If you ignore that, then you chase just about every single non-FS out of PvP threads that aren't against other non-FS' and spoiler alert, there aren't a whole lot of those on opposing sides as is.

The only way I see you can make the Force more 'powerful' without utterly breaking things is by setting out a defined set of approved powers (at least in PvP). Sure, that makes it closer to 'magic technology' but it's better than the alternative.

 

[Green Ranger]

Okay, so...I am not disagreeing with you.

But we need to define how powerful the Force should be (because where it's at currently is not working as intended) before you can start determining rules about limiting use of tech or whatever. It's a multi-step process.

Otherwise you're just setting arbitrary restrictions based on no actual facts or evidence in the RP. You need to re-adjust the Force and get it to a place where you can consider it's at an acceptable level, then use that information to determine how much tech a Force user can reasonably have.

 

[Roen]

Well, you can implement a concrete stamina system, which makes it a bit of a numbers game, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, all things considered. It would get rid of the fatigue debate, which is an erroneous concept considering most fights last no when close enough to get truly exhausted. It keeps members from spamming abilities. I would also ease off the 'concentration' bit. If you're PvP'ing, chances are your Force-user is acclimatized to loud noises and bright flashes. Unsettling, yes, but I've seen large debates revolving around a Force-user can't use the Force because something has the potential to distract them.

 

[TheBeta]

I'm not proposing that anything be nerfed. The PvP lovers here seem to like going on about how it's about 'writing the other person into a corner', no? I can't think of a much bigger advantage than the potential of some vaguely defined Space Magic(tm) that you can conjure up at a moment's notice, with the only real limitation being how well you describe it.

Compare that with technology, which by the demands of the site needs to have just about every advantage EXPLICITLY written down, checked and approved, then stapled onto a character sheet where if you overload on it - too much heavy ordinance, carrying too many grenades - you're going to get called out on it or actually rule that you have to take some of the gear off. Oh, and Force users can also run around with the same gear, as well as utilise their Space Magic(tm).

Well, I don't want to be against anyone/cause any more turmoil, but I think it is a very valid point to make that something that does indeed affect everyone on the site, using your example that Force Users can also use the same tech, that it should be all the more closely looked at, not for the purpose of making it competative as far as advantages over anyone including Force Users go, but rather making it (and I am sorry for the lack of brain power put into finding a word for this, but I think this covers it) "Natural".

We don't see people today running around with a plethora of grenades and ammunition for a reason is that it simlpy isn't manageable. Something huge that people need to consider (and I think this needs to follow through with everyone including Force Users especially, and I will touch on this a bit below), is how much equipment weighs. 10 grenades and two extra magazines alone is a lot of additional weight that not only adds weight of the person run ing around with it on, but it also takes a lot of maneuverability away from the person as well as accessability. There is a point where you simply cannot fit grenades 6-10 into a reasonably accessible location on the belt (or wherever).

But the part above, where I mentioned "Natural", some people -speaking in real life- are far more comfortable sith some equipment than others and althuogh having a massive array of technology is nice and useful, it is not necessarily comfortable for some people to carry it around where their preferences are elsewhere. I may be completely wrong, but I think that there is a "video-gamey" feel to role playing that some people cna naturally feel by manipulating the life of a character that they may not completely grasp a realistic concept on what a character is in fact capable of. Don't get me wrong though, a video-gamey feel (to varying degrees) is what makes Role Playing a character fun for, I would think, a lot of people including myself. Furthermore, I think that a fair dose of this video-gamey feeling is necessary even, but that is somply my opinion.

As promised: This feeling of realism with technology shouldn't stop with technology of 'course, but ti shuold cover all aspects of the role play, especially using the Force. Obviously, it is incredibly difficult to quantify using the Force since it is not something that exists in the real world. These are things that need to be judged by the writers tehemselves to determine if something is just too over the top which is particularly difficult seeing that we can all get carried away without even realizing it!

What it boils down to in the end (mind you this is purely my own opinion), is relying on the writers to know their character's limits and the most realistic manner of RPing them. Ultimately, I feel that leadership wants EVERYONE to feel like they have as much a fair oportunity as every other character (could very well be wrong of 'course). Since we are all not perfect, this requires looking at what makes the rules the fairest in limiting Force Users Versus Tech users.

NOW, realize that I haven't the slightest clue whether or not this has been achieved or not, nor do I know if this is even their goal! But I think I am correct in assuming that this is precisely the reason why they are asking for feedback, to make the site more fun. If that means everyone is on a fair playingfeild regarding tech vs force, then I firmly believe they will very well make it happen. I hope I made a few perspectives look a bit clearer, otherwise, I apologize for forcing you to read thruogh this brick.

 

[Mitchos]

Honestly a lot of the tech I've seen on force users in PVP is pretty cringe worthy at times. Seeing a Jedi or Sith swap to to repulsor boots when they can leap large distances and already move faster then non force users is just silly or swapping to a sniper rifle when I'm pretty sure most members of the order viewed them as less reliable or even primitive weapons. Thats not even mentioning the time investment a character would need to learn all this extra skills on top of their traditional training.

 

[Sreeya]

Honestly a lot of the tech I've seen on force users in PVP is pretty cringe worthy at times. Seeing a Jedi or Sith swap to to repulsor boots when the can leap large distances and already move faster then non force users is just silly or swapping to a sniper rifle when I'm pretty sure most members of the order viewed them as less reliable or even primitive weapons. Thats not even mentioning the time investment a character would need to learn all this extra skills on top of their traditional training.

Lol they switch to repulsorboots because of the Force issue where apparently every Force use is too taxing so people hesitate from using Force to cover large distances/use Force speed. If people do something, there's always something else broken that's causing that.

 

[Green Ranger]

Lol they switch to repulsorboots because of the Force issue where apparently every Force use is too taxing so people hesitate from using Force to cover large distances/use Force speed. If people do something, there's always something else broken that's causing that.

Basically this. It's a symptom.

Most Force-using players I know don't like using tech like that, but they feel obligated to because the Force is so lame right now.

So part of the solution of Force users using too much tech is to make the Force useful again. You'll find if you do that, most Force-using people will self-nerf their gear to a pretty significant level.

 

[Wit]

Exactly, it's pretty easy to call things ring worthy without actually providing a solution to the reasons those apparently cringe worthy things exist. The Force as it exists right now is so nerfed that using the Force to enhance your speed or jump really far would be more or less the end of your Force usage in that thread. Fix the Force and no one needs to rely on tech to compensate for the lack of effectiveness of the Force right now.

 

[Malon]

Not to mention it isn't realistic. I know we do it to balance out characters in PvP situations, but both in canon and Legends — both of which I have read in extensively — I can only think of a handful of times I have ever noted a Force user to become so exhausted they can't do anything meaningful because of their Force usage. Sans using a massive, wide-spread Force power, and granted that they have been trained decently enough, it quite honestly doesn't seem to strain them much at all.

Spamming is the real issue, and maybe that's what needs to be addressed. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there already limits to the amount of "actions" a character can make in a single post? Perhaps the same thing needs to be done with the Force. That way the Force can return to its rightful "power level" (hate using that term) and it is still limited to prevent back-to-back-to-back usages in a post.

 

[Wit]

SWRP's 2017 New Year's resolution, fix the Force!

 

[Mitchos]

SWRP's 2017 New Year's resolution, fix the Force!

WOOH Lets do this !!