The Treaty of Agamar OOC

[Sreeya]

Lol Sov, if you're here then it's your forum too. This place is collaboratively what we make of it. I don't want you to have to take a hit if you strongly don't feel you should. I've asked an admin to come take a look at this.

 

[Tsunami]

@Internecion

@Tsunami You guys realize I had Brandon Rhea look over my use of the Force in the previous posts, and my last post reflected the ruling he personally gave me on it, right? Thus, thats my response to any "over use of the Force" my character may have used. If that's directed to anyone else - well I'm must going to defend myself in this case.

I realise, i was in the skype convo. Hence i referenced it in my post. You also said this;

My character's force use was handicapped, from the forum master here looking at my post

You can't hold this over the other players head. That's the issue you have to work around, because its the situation you have put yourself in. I said on skype this was going to end up as a baptism of fire for you guys. However its a situation that sadly you are in and have to put up with.

-The flash grenade I would have gladly let go - they went along with it. HONESTLY if theres an issue ppl need to bring it up to me, and I'll get rid of the post. Not hold it agaisnt me later.

I did at the time, I said how were you going to learn? Yet, to be given a game changing piece of equipment in a thread that is already filled with OCC comments. Then to complain that "Your eyesight would have been worse for longer" i mean, there has to be a bit of push and pull here. Sreeya could have easily said, no you can't have it. Then performed the same action anyway.

what the heck, man? How else am I supposed to learn practical application of the rules, if things are frowned upon being explained to new members, and then being revised by said new members?

But you are not taking it as a learning curve, you just aren't I've seen skype and the OCC thread. Its all well and good saying you are learning, and the Jedi here clearly understand that hence why they are talking to you over OCC. Saying that you are learning is fine, but you then can't expect the outcomes you want, or things to go your way.

And honestly I find it kind of insulting. I clearly hope there is a big interpretation from what I'm projecting, or hwat your getting out of any of this.

Because this shouldn't be an OCC war fest. Period.

 

[Ral]

And go for the kill on Sov? I'm sorry but the force push wouldn't have killed him, that's not a freebie.

I can math the amount of Force and show you why you're wrong on that point, mate. I'm not going to, because people generally don't like it, but I can.

But in anycase, I think we've all tried to be fair considering what is feasibly acceptable. We're not trying to shove the short end of the stick in your face because we arbitrarily feel like it, we have justifications for doing what we do, and have repeatedly said to ask an admin if you feel like we're being unfair or if you don't understand. We've tried to make deals and be understanding that this is your guys' first thread, first real dangerous situation, even giving you plenty of leeway and freebies with this in mind along. We've also tried to bear in mind that you guys didn't quite understand the rules of entering PvP and Force usage, etc (like having unapproved non generic tech, not having gear listed on profiles before entering the thread). That said, we are still trying to hold you guys accountable and at least help you understand why you can't do certain things, or why you can do certain things, because if you guys ever get into a situation where you have to PvP again, it might not be against people who are quite less amiable and willing to help.

Idk, hope that makes sense. I've been trying to tell people that this is good for you as a learning experience, which is why I didn't want to go to the admins right away with every issue, and why I wanted to at least discuss it with my teammates before bringing it up with you. Anyways, I do hope this is a learning experience, and that you're not too put off by what happened.

 

[Internecion]

How the heck can you say I'm not taking it as a learning curve, when I'm still working out the specifics of each individual ruling?

@Ral and yes that makes perfect sense. And I'm not put off to any of this, infact I'm grateful for it for reasons I've stated already in length. LOL Anything you guys hear from me as being me put off, is from other people coming in and offering their opinions, or direct comments at me giving their opinion on whether they think I'm learning anything or not, outside of this specific RP. You guys are being incredibly helpful, I hope I'm not seeming like I think otherwise.

 

[Brandon Rhea]

I think we should drop the argument about learning curves, understanding the rules, etc at this point. Because everyone's said their piece on that, and everyone's right in a number of respects.

1. The new members on the Sith side are correct in saying that they are seeking to understand how things work on the site. A post or two I've seen here questioning them on that are really silly and not at all fair. These guys joined in December, when the last timeline was all but dead and we were all waiting for the new one. This is, as they say, their first rodeo. It will take awhile to fully acclimate to how things work on SWRP - which is something that the Sith faction as a whole, with lots of new members, will have to contend with and work on for the time being. These next few weeks, where things are still just starting to heat up and the war hasn't fully sparked yet, are a good opportunity for that.
2. The Jedi are correct in saying that they've given a lot of chances, leeway, and opportunity here. The Internecion example from yesterday is a good example of that, where the Jedi said "we get it, so we don't have to kill you." That's more than fair. I think the Jedi are acting in good faith there, and genuinely giving the Sith players the space they need to learn how things work.

But, to use a phrase Tsunami has used a few times now, sometimes learning how things work in PvP/combat situations involves a baptism by fire. The Sith are right to want to have the opportunity to learn and grow here, but the Jedi are right too and bringing the heat (though it's certainly toned down heat here, re: point #2 above).

Right now the biggest issue I see in this OOC thread (potential need for an IC admin ruling notwithstanding) is that emotions are starting to run high on both sides and it's leading to attitude on both sides. So whether an admin ruling is going to be needed or not, let's all take two steps back and make sure that we're not getting worked up over something that is fairly easy to resolve.

 

[Sapphire Storm]

This entire thread is a fucking disgrace. Not only do three veteran members jump in on a mission consisting entirely of new people to the site (which by itself is fine, depending on how said veteran members handle themselves) they then set about convincing, coercing, cajoling and arguing them into doing just about anything they want. And when one is actually brave enough to speak up, what do you do? Just dogpile him until he shuts up. You present such a wonderfully inviting image to new members and potential members everywhere. If your mission here is to scare the three new members in this thread away from the site forever, keep at it, because I can assure you that you're doing a fantastic job of it. You fucking disgust me. Yes, I get that it's an open thread and that danger and risk are the entire reason these open threads exist, but these threads do not exist so that veteran members can take advantage of the lack of experience and knowledge of new members in their very first thread.

Inter, Soverin, Darles Chickens, I'm going to let you in on a little secret that they've conveniently neglected to tell you. You don't have to let anything hit you, regardless of what they say. If you can think up a way of dodging that attack, within reason and within the scope of the rules, then you can and should dodge it. Don't let anyone ever persuade you into letting their attack hit if you can think up a reasonable and logical way to dodge it. And also don't let them get away with stuff that they're trying to slip past you.

Ral, for example, Force Pushing Mors into a surface with enough force to, as Sreeya said, "kill a human," and then in the next post moving on about his day as if he hadn't just expended a large amount of energy. Don't you even try and tell me that Force Pushing someone into something with enough force to kill a human isn't tiring in the slightest. That's a load of shit and you know it, and trying to slip it through simply because it's the first actual thread your opponents have been in is scummy. Almost as scummy as joining a thread full of new people with the sole purpose of scoring some easy kills. I was hoping that wouldn't be the case when you all joined in, but it's becoming pretty obvious that it's the exact reason that at least some of you joined.

I don't know what being a veteran member and interacting with new members means to you, but to me it means that you have a responsibility to ensure that they understand how things work here and that you don't attempt to take advantage of their lack of knowledge and experience because you know they're new, which is exactly what has happened here. This entire OOC thread is a fucking mess. I had high hopes for this and was hoping, despite knowing better, that it would go well and wouldn't have any OOC issues, regardless of the outcome of the IC thread. It's sad to see that it has gone the exact way I immediately thought it would.

edit: Weird, "shit" isn't ****'d out.

 

[Brandon Rhea]

This has escalated completely unnecessarily. The fact that this has happened less than a week after the timeline began is very disappointing.

Again, I'd reiterate the general thrust of my last post. I don't see the Jedi walking over the Sith players. Just like, on the flip side, I don't see the Sith players using "I'm new" as a crutch to avoid taking any damage or having anything go wrong, as some people have unfairly accused them of.

What I'm seeing is a communication gap between two groups of RPers who are largely acting in good faith, but who - on both sides - are getting worked up unnecessary. So again, if we're going to resolve this, let's everybody take a few steps back and tone it down.

If the two sides feel an admin ruling is necessary, then report the thread. But if you're just going to continue yelling at each other and treating a fairly trivial issue like it's the end of the world, then I'll do exactly what I don't want to do: shut down and give a ruled-ending for the first conflict thread of the timeline.

It's entirely up to you.

 

[Sreeya]

This entire thread is a ******* disgrace. Not only do three veteran members jump in on a mission consisting entirely of new people to the site (which by itself is fine, depending on how said veteran members handle themselves) they then set about convincing, coercing, cajoling and arguing them into doing just about anything they want. And when one is actually brave enough to speak up, what do you do? Just dogpile him until he shuts up. You present such a wonderfully inviting image to new members and potential members everywhere. If your mission here is to scare the three new members in this thread away from the site forever, keep at it, because I can assure you that you're doing a fantastic job of it. You ******* disgust me. Yes, I get that it's an open thread and that danger and risk are the entire reason these open threads exist, but these threads do not exist so that veteran members can take advantage of the lack of experience and knowledge of new members in their very first thread.

@Sapphire Storm Just because we're veterans doesn't mean we won't get into conflicts. We're not gonna sit around and vegetate because people are newer lol there's a war and there's conflict. I'm confused about what you mean about convincing/coercing. I implore you to please ask Internecion to provide you the PM exchanges we've had, including the ones he had sent us about asking us to please wipe the past use of Force from the posts. This was addressed by Brandon in the Sith chat, I believe. So no cajoling there. Furthermore, any instance of us saying what something WOULD do is followed up with 'but please ask an admin'. These are new members, but they're not stupid and gullible like you appear to be implying. If they 100% believe they are in the right, they have the sense to go to admins, an open door that's always been presented to them. As new members, there's nothing wrong with getting admins involved. As it is, we've all collectively decided to keep them out.

Inter, Soverin, Darles Chickens, I'm going to let you in on a little secret that they've conveniently neglected to tell you. You don't have to let anything hit you, regardless of what they say. If you can think up a way of dodging that attack, within reason and within the scope of the rules, then you can and should dodge it. Don't let anyone ever persuade you into letting their attack hit if you can think up a reasonable and logical way to dodge it. And also don't let them get away with stuff that they're trying to slip past you.

Ral, for example, Force Pushing Mors into a surface with enough force to, as Sreeya said, "kill a human," and then in the next post moving on about his day as if he hadn't just expended a large amount of energy. Don't you even try and tell me that Force Pushing someone into something with enough force to kill a human isn't tiring in the slightest. That's a load of shit and you know it, and trying to slip it through simply because it's the first actual thread your opponents have been in is scummy. Almost as scummy as joining a thread full of new people with the sole purpose of scoring some easy kills. I was hoping that wouldn't be the case when you all joined in, but it's becoming pretty obvious that it's the exact reason that at least some of you joined.

Actually, we told them exactly the fact that they don't have to let anything hit them if they can dodge it fairly. And you are well aware of this because you are in the Sith chat where Brandon blatantly pointed out that we told them they can block attacks however they want within reason.

Also, I feel like you're making up some things here. Ral Force pushing WAS taxing on Cassus. We all agreed on this. He IS tired Force wise. Right now he's swinging sabers around, but you bet he can't pull off Force use as effectively anymore. I think you pulled that out for the sake of arguing, because that's not even a point we disagree on. We joined this thread because it was a combat scenario. None of us care if people are old or new, but perhaps it is also part of your job to ensure your new members know what they're doing before entering a conflict thread?

I was an FL too, Sapphire, and if new members went into pvp, I opened a group chat with them to ensure they knew everything about the rules and what was going okay/what wasn't. If I didn't know, I'd ask an admin. Teaching is your responsibility as well, and railing on veterans for joining a thread just won't address that. Encourage pvp, offer help and training before you do any threads to take over planets. If not us, then you'll run into this same problem with anyone else that wants to be a part of the war.

If we wanted cheap kills, trust me, we would've actually taken advantage of them making mistakes and done killing blows. We have done neither, and have instead been going through the pain of oocly resolving things/giving free passes. I'm sorry that you feel that's the reason we joined, but I hope when you're less angry about this you'll take another look at this.

I don't know what being a veteran member and interacting with new members means to you, but to me it means that you have a responsibility to ensure that they understand how things work here and that you don't attempt to take advantage of their lack of knowledge and experience because you know they're new, which is exactly what has happened here. This entire OOC thread is a ******* mess. I had high hopes for this and was hoping, despite knowing better, that it would go well and wouldn't have any OOC issues, regardless of the outcome of the IC thread. It's sad to see that it has gone the exact way I immediately thought it would.

And once again, as FL, you have the responsibility of ensuring that anyone you send into battle is well prepared. You jumped the gun a bit too quickly on big time operations. Wait to see who's comfortable with pvp/combat before you send people into risky situations. Some of the rules are new, so test out in a tournament or non conflict missions to see how people use them.

Also, I think you have this image that we're all tearing each other up. But as of now, all 6 of us are in a Skype chat right now getting along perfectly fine. In fact, your entire post was borderline ridiculous with how well we're having a conversation here lol If you want to be 'disgusted' and keep throwing out insults, more power to you. I simply hope you will come to understand that even the players involved aren't as worked up at this point.

 

[Sapphire Storm]

So I don't think it's any surprise to anyone that I went overboard there. It's pretty obvious, in fact. I still have my own opinion about the whole situation, but it could have been expressed in a far better manner than the one in which it was.

Also, @Arclight just so you're aware, none of what was said in that post was really directed at you.

 

[Internecion]

Your still entitled to voice your opinion, and I'm really grateful your looking out for me so much Sapphire!!

But on another note just so it's voiced here - the admin ruling was extremely fair and unbiased, many helpful and completely sound rulings on numerous instances throughout the thread. Not to mention, everyone involved is being extremely helpful with any further questions or ideas for posts to come. Just wanted to put that out there - in retrospect from my heated side of this whole OOC thread.

 

[Soverin]

@Sapphire Storm I think everyone Sith-side, myself especially, will remain opinionated about how this played out, but as the original poster of the thread I'm willing to just sip my tea and comply so that an even bigger shit storm doesn't erupt from this. There was an admin ruling, and so we can continue on and hopefully end this chapter.

As a new member, I want to say that this hasn't in any way shook me from wanting to be a part of this site or his story, if anything it's opened my eyes so that next time I do meet a more experienced RPer like Sreeya or Ral in PVP, I'll be have the know how to stack up against whatever they bring in a fair manner that coincides with the rules.

We might not be able to bring this win home, but maybe our other two threads can. So we'll just have to wait and see.