The Universe

[Viggy]

I know there are some people here with a strong knowledge of physics, philosophy and other relevant subjects, so I come to you as a layman with a few questions.

First of all: is the universe truly infinite?

If it is infinite, how can it be possible that it is expanding? How can infinite be getting any larger?

And if it is not infinite, what exactly would its 'borders' be? What would the edge of the universe look like? If you were in a spacecraft and went beyond the edge, what would happen?

If it is expanding, what is it expanding into? What is around the universe that it is filling up?

The more I think about these questions, the more I come to the conclusion that our universe is an utter paradox and cannot be real, because it seems impossible for it to be infinite and equally impossible for it to be finite. I am beginning to feel that this supposed reality is an illusion. Allay my existential crisis, please.

 

[Insoulent]

The perceivable universe (matter) is finite, but it's ever expanding, though collectively collapsing on itself. Energy that binds reality is forever being distributed, never created or destroyed(it simply exist in a cycle). So when energy transfers, more matter is created and other matter is destroyed to take its place.

Basically: think of a toaster, and the electrical energy inside of it is transferred into heat energy, only think of this happening forever.

So, while we expand outwards, we are actually pulling ourselves back through black holes (mix of other factors aswell like electromagnetism and higher science processes) basically, and we are redistributed into another source of matter and energy. Does that make sense? I could be wrong, or missed some details, but that's how I was explained about it.

 

[Insoulent]

Ps. This is still before even trying to study collapsing universes, m-theory, super string theory of existence and multiple universes. It gets pretty complex.

 

[Ender]

I know there are some people here with a strong knowledge of physics, philosophy and other relevant subjects, so I come to you as a layman with a few questions.

First of all: is the universe truly infinite?

If it is infinite, how can it be possible that it is expanding? How can infinite be getting any larger?

And if it is not infinite, what exactly would its 'borders' be? What would the edge of the universe look like? If you were in a spacecraft and went beyond the edge, what would happen?

If it is expanding, what is it expanding into? What is around the universe that it is filling up?

The more I think about these questions, the more I come to the conclusion that our universe is an utter paradox and cannot be real, because it seems impossible for it to be infinite and equally impossible for it to be finite. I am beginning to feel that this supposed reality is an illusion. Allay my existential crisis, please.

Well...your answer is within your question. How can infinite keep expanding? Because that's what infinite is. Never ending. It will always be expanding because if it stopped then it is no longer infinite

 

[Insoulent]

in hindsight, that analogy with the toaster and the energy doesn't really do justice to my explanation, since the matter (the toaster) is also still broken down and created into something else.

 

[Empress]

to make it alittle easier viggy

the universe TECHNCIALLY is not infinite it has a shape, it has a defined size " though is growing"

think of it like blowing up a balloon though... even though your balloon gets bigger the actual total mass ( of the balloon itself not the air in it) of it never changed





its just perceived as infinite because there is no way in hell we could get anywhere neat the edge

though on a fun note there is hinting of bruising on the universe too

 

[Viggy]

Someone else I was talking to about this gave me an interesting link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ca4miMMaCE

The part with the 'flatman' on the folded paper helped give me some perspective on the questions I've brought up here, but I still don't really understand how we even got the idea (let alone how we could know) that these other dimensions exist.

The perceivable universe (matter) is finite, but it's ever expanding, though collectively collapsing on itself. Energy that binds reality is forever being distributed, never created or destroyed(it simply exist in a cycle). So when energy transfers, more matter is created and other matter is destroyed to take its place.

Basically: think of a toaster, and the electrical energy inside of it is transferred into heat energy, only think of this happening forever.

So, while we expand outwards, we are actually pulling ourselves back through black holes (mix of other factors aswell like electromagnetism and higher science processes) basically, and we are redistributed into another source of matter and energy. Does that make sense? I could be wrong, or missed some details, but that's how I was explained about it.

I don't know what you mean by 'energy that binds reality'...

Well...your answer is within your question. How can infinite keep expanding? Because that's what infinite is. Never ending. It will always be expanding because if it stopped then it is no longer infinite

If it is expanding, isn't it just a finite amount becoming a larger and larger finite amount?

to make it alittle easier viggy

the universe TECHNCIALLY is not infinite it has a shape, it has a defined size " though is growing"

think of it like blowing up a balloon though... even though your balloon gets bigger the actual total mass ( of the balloon itself not the air in it) of it never changed





its just perceived as infinite because there is no way in hell we could get anywhere neat the edge

though on a fun note there is hinting of bruising on the universe too

I know I'm repeating myself, but if the universe has a shape and defined size that is growing, then what is it replacing as it grows? Going on your balloon metaphor to try and get my meaning across... when you blow up a balloon, you're displacing the air around the balloon. What is the universe displacing as it expands? And what exactly would this unreachable edge be? Some sort of barrier in space, getting further and further away as the expansion goes on? This doesn't seem to make sense and returns me once again to the question of what's beyond the barrier.

Also, what do you mean by 'bruising'?

 

[Insoulent]

Okay, so the only thing that creates matter, is energy. Different interactions of energy create different forms of matter. Now, there's a certain amount of matter that can be created with this energy. So that's what we can perceived. The matter that is created from this energy. It is broken down, and the energy is transferred into something else. So, basically, as energy breaks matter down, something else comes out of this process, new matter. So it's an eternal clockwork of energy just being transferred. Created, destroyed, redistributed, forever.


There's some that say that what we perceive as "existence" is actually just ripples in space and we're just slowed downed waves of energy. It's hard to explain,and it's been a while since I read that book, so I can't really explain it well, but I remember making sense to me at the time I read it.

 

[Green Ranger]

You're either not smoking enough weed, or smoking too much. The point is you're not smoking the exact right amount.

 

[Insoulent]

LOL crazy thing is I smoked right before I read this.

 

[Viggy]

Okay, so the only thing that creates matter, is energy. Different interactions of energy create different forms of matter. Now, there's a certain amount of matter that can be created with this energy. So that's what we can perceived. The matter that is created from this energy. It is broken down, and the energy is transferred into something else. So, basically, as energy breaks matter down, something else comes out of this process, new matter. So it's an eternal clockwork of energy just being transferred. Created, destroyed, redistributed, forever.


There's some that say that what we perceive as "existence" is actually just ripples in space and we're just slowed downed waves of energy. It's hard to explain,and it's been a while since I read that book, so I can't really explain it well, but I remember making sense to me at the time I read it.

I understand what you're saying a little better now, I think. Let's find out, let me try and sum up the impression you've given me: there is infinite energy, but finite matter. Energy creates and destroys the matter. There is infinite nothingness, and our universe with mass and matter is expanding outward into this nothingness?

You're either not smoking enough weed, or smoking too much. The point is you're not smoking the exact right amount.

Most insightful response I've had so far.

 

[Insoulent]

Pow. You hit the nail.

 

[Empress]

by bruising I mean a spot in the cosmic background radiation that shows a turbulent disturbance to it..basically in 4 spots that really suggest we collided or interacted with something of equal mass and energy * aka more universes*

to further this, the distribution of the galaxy clusters and gases following the big bang, and the direction things are moving is actually more in one direction, almost as if its rolling down hill on one side...again suggesting there is likely a gravity force out side the universe influencing it....aka most likely more universes...

daw the universe is pretty




as for what is filling the universe as it expands? nothing....Just dark energy breaking up energy and matter , dark energy making up the vast vast majority of the universe. Actual quantifiable matter is a shockingly small number

 

[Insoulent]

I'm not too versed in string theory, so I'll leave you to the advance stuff.

 

[Empress]

long story short,they said if there was a multi verse our own universe would show evidence of such a bustling place....

then we found bruises

 

[Viggy]

Pow. You hit the nail.

Woohoo!

by bruising I mean a spot in the cosmic background radiation that shows a turbulent disturbance to it..basically in 4 spots that really suggest we collided or interacted with something of equal mass and energy * aka more universes*

If our universe is surrounded by infinite nothingness, how can we collide with or interact with other universes?

to further this, the distribution of the galaxy clusters and gases following the big bang, and the direction things are moving is actually more in one direction, almost as if its rolling down hill on one side...again suggesting there is likely a gravity force out side the universe influencing it....aka most likely more universes...

Okay, now it's getting into some serious mind****ery and like I said before I am a layman, but I'll try my best to keep making sense as I attempt to talk about this. My understanding of the multiverse theory is that different universes would have different basic laws (like gravity, speed of light, etc). Why would gravity even be a thing in this... let's say higher dimension (that probably makes no sense but the only other phrase I can think of is 'universe of universes'), where universes affect one another? Do the laws of our universe apply at all on this scale? It doesn't seem like they would.

as for what is filling the universe as it expands? nothing....Just dark energy breaking up energy and matter , dark energy making up the vast vast majority of the universe. Actual quantifiable matter is a shockingly small number

I'm not asking what is filling the universe, I'm asking what the universe is filling. It seems to me that for it to be expanding there has to be empty space or something that yields to its expansion beyond the 'edge'... Insoulent said it was infinite nothingness, but I've just had a thought. Why is the nothingness not considered part of our universe?

 

[Green Ranger]

I'm not asking what is filling the universe, I'm asking what the universe is filling. It seems to me that for it to be expanding there has to be empty space or something that yields to its expansion beyond the 'edge'... Insoulent said it was infinite nothingness, but I've just had a thought. Why is the nothingness not considered part of our universe?

I'm not the most educated person on the subject, but as far as I understand it, the universe is what we consider definable space - that is, the physical and spatial boundaries of the realm that controls the matter, energy and fundamental laws of science and mathematics that allow what is contained within to exist. Defining what is beyond the universe - which is a giant question mark based on speculation - as part of the universe itself wouldn't make sense, because it's a seperate entity - it's not like when you go beyond the thresh-hold of the universe that there is an empty, vast black nothingness to infinity, because in all likelihood that black nothingness in itself doesn't even exist.

 

[Empress]

this is where we are starting to run out of the ability to know for sure currently, we have a light barrier we cant see past

but also if you think about universal distribution you have several models to consider, though the most likely one has us not as a single bubble in nothing gloating around like a galaxy does ( which even then we collide with other galaxies from time to time) but that we very likely are more like a cluster of bubbles

but really at this point we do start driving into quantum mechanics, theoretical physics, m theory and all that which gets insanely more mind blowing and painfully overwhelming on any level.

 

[Shiuzu]

Viggz, all you need to remember...is that we're two lost souls swimmin in a fish bowl, year after year.

And that the universe is just weird. When you get down to certain levels of particles it's hard to tell what the hell is going on, it's hard to get finite data, especially when certain tests involving photons changed results depending on if someone was watching.

 

[Viggy]

I'm not the most educated person on the subject, but as far as I understand it, the universe is what we consider definable space - that is, the physical and spatial boundaries of the realm that controls the matter, energy and fundamental laws of science and mathematics that allow what is contained within to exist. Defining what is beyond the universe - which is a giant question mark based on speculation - as part of the universe itself wouldn't make sense, because it's a seperate entity - it's not like when you go beyond the thresh-hold of the universe that there is an empty, vast black nothingness to infinity, because in all likelihood that black nothingness in itself doesn't even exist.

I still don't really get the idea of this thresh-hold and what exactly it would be, but I think I understand what you're saying about what's beyond it. Or rather, what isn't beyond it. You know.