Villains revealed?

Cainhurst Crow · Jun 17, 2014

*Nods* that sounds about right.

Malice Marf said:
There's nothing villainous or evil about wanting to embrace the emotions and passions most relevant to human nature to improve ones' self. It's a highly optimistic and inspiring philosophy.

They don't pursue their passions without restraint, power and control are the other core tenants of their philosophy. Control over ones' fate and ones' self. Sith control their passions with an iron hand then channel and use them efficiently. They embrace and control their emotions, their emotions do not control them.

That was never the impression I ever got. They seem to frown on restraint as a sign of weakness. The whole line about "My chains are broken, the force shall set me free" seemed pretty evident of that. To be able to pursue ones interest and desires unhindered, without fear or concern to hold them back, seems to be their highest ideal.

Brandon Rhea · Jun 17, 2014

Kaeb said:
So what this boils down to is this:

Some people think that the Sith still have to be a thing, and if they are, Luke should already know about them.

Others don't think they necessarily have to be a thing, but if they genuinely have to be, they have to be reintroduced to the audience through a character that never knew about them.

And the only way we have of knowing what the best path is, is when the movie comes out. Otherwise we're going to keep arguing in circles.

I'd add in a third group: some people who don't think they are necessary to actually physically be in the films, but who believe there is an indelible legacy to the Sith that can't be narratively ignored regardless of whether the Sith are in it or not.

I would put the Sith in the film, but I would also put myself into that third camp. But you could also spin that as being part of the second camp you mentioned.

Kaeb · Jun 17, 2014

I feel about it the same way I feel about Luke not knowing what a Jedi was in ANH, despite the meta-audience context tbh.

Narratively speaking, which are two words I've now said 79 times in this thread alone.

Marf · Jun 17, 2014

Bronitarian said:
That was never the impression I ever got. They seem to frown on restraint as a sign of weakness. The whole line about "My chains are broken, the force shall set me free" seemed pretty evident of that. To be able to pursue ones interest and desires unhindered, without fear or concern to hold them back, seems to be their highest ideal.

"Through passion, I gain strength, through strength I gain power" = A Sith gets his strength from his emotions, which he then controls and channels properly, turn it into Force power until he is able to command it at his will. The Jedi philosophy teaches one to be devoid of passion or emotion, instead of embracing and using them as the Sith philosophy does.

Having no fear or concern is typical among of the Warrior class, who consider careful planning and caution to be hindrances which waste time when one has to defend ones' self on the battlefield. Sorcerers and Assassins are far more cautious and value careful scheming. Again, it is a highly diverse culture with many different aspects.

Cortan · Jun 17, 2014

Do remember thats stuff that was built for the EU though, and thus doesn't necessarily stick around going forward.

Thinking about it, that means we don't have either the Jedi or Sith code either. Unless the former cropped up once in the Clone Wars series and I can't remember it.

Brandon Rhea · Jun 17, 2014

Cortan said:
Do remember thats stuff that was built for the EU though, and thus doesn't necessarily stick around going forward.

Thinking about it, that means we don't have either the Jedi or Sith code either. Unless the former cropped up once in the Clone Wars series and I can't remember it.

Sam Witwer ad libbed part of the Sith Code in his first Darth Maul episode (the one where Maul was crazy), but it wasn't identified as such. So it could be taken as canon if you want to interpret it that way, but strictly speaking it's not.

Kaeb · Jun 17, 2014

Despite CW being canon, it's not just a movie, so the majority of audiences will only have see either just the OT or the PT and the OT, so they can't rely in the CW for answers.

The same way that Marvel doesn't with their shorts and television shows.

Brandon Rhea · Jun 17, 2014

Kaeb said:
Despite CW being canon, it's not just a movie, so the majority of audiences will only have see either just the OT or the PT and the OT, so they can't really in the CW for answers.

The same way that Marvel doesn't with their shorts and television shows.

Right, they won't rely on TCW, but they will take it into account. It's just that if there's a concept that they want to use from it, then they need to re-introduce it, for example.

Kaeb · Jun 17, 2014

Exactly.

Audiences can't be left not knowing what the **** is going on, or being confused about what the characters know and they don't.

Rom · Jun 17, 2014

Kaeb said:
Despite CW being canon, it's not just a movie, so the majority of audiences will only have see either just the OT or the PT and the OT, so they can't really in the CW for answers.

The same way that Marvel doesn't with their shorts and television shows.

But, as Bac pointed out, they dont have to rely on the TV Show in regards to the Sith existing. Certainly some fleshing out would be locked into the TV show and could easily be introduced with some exposition between our old Hero and some of the newbies, but the Prequels generally tell us that A) There are two Sith at any one point, a Master and an Apprentice. B) Anakin Skywalker became a Sith upon taking up the mantle of Darth Vader. C) Yoda gives enough mention to the prophecy being misinterpreted to make it okay for Sith to exist after the defeat of Palpatine and the apparent "balancing" of the Force in the prophecy.

Brandon Rhea · Jun 17, 2014

http://www.theforce.net/story/front...isode_VII_Will_Not_Be_Jedi_Hunters_158505.asp

Eric Geller says the Jedi Hunters report is incorrect. He doesn't say how he knows, though.

Miz · Jun 17, 2014

Jedi Hunters are lame anyway.

Green Ranger · Jun 17, 2014

Malice Marf said:
In the films, the Sith were very boring, the only one I found even remotely interesting was Darth Sidious. Which is I don't really care about the Star Wars movies at all.

In the EU however, they are a diverse, exotic and fascinating culture with all kinds of archetypes and characters (except for the Rule of Two, which is bullshit). If the amount of detail and complexity given to the Sith in the EU was used in the films, they could be just as interesting.

What I hate is the idea of dividing whole cultures into the categories of heroes and villains. Sure, there can be antagonists and protagonists within certain societies (like the Sith, or dare I say even the Jedi), but the galaxy is far too big to call an entire civilization or order the "villains". There could easily be a Sith character who is one of the heroes, or not a hero or villain at all. Depending on how well his character is constructed and how complex he is.

I get that you have your whole different take on the Sith and this whole angle of, 'they're really not all that bad you guys,' but thankfully Disney has come along and trashed all the EU nonsense around Sith. So we're left with a back to basics approach. Sith = Dark side = evil douchebags. All those piss-poor attempts to try to make them anti-heroes or sympathetic in their own right is thankfully washed away. All we know is they're evil, they're dicks, and they willingly embrace the dark side which is categorically and unarguably evil.

All this stuff about the Sith being sympathetic or somehow noble in their aspirations is, frankly, blatant fanboyism and blind idolisation, and I'm glad it's non-canon. It was a joke to begin with.

Miz · Jun 17, 2014

My only gripe is that Dooku is just a plain old bad guy again. Oh Well.

Cortan · Jun 17, 2014

Eh, there's still the Clone Wars TV show to flesh him out somewhat. So villain, but one who tried to seem like a man running a reasonable regime.

Kaeb · Jun 17, 2014

Green Ranger said:
I get that you have your whole different take on the Sith and this whole angle of, 'they're really not all that bad you guys,' but thankfully Disney has come along and trashed all the EU nonsense around Sith. So we're left with a back to basics approach. Sith = Dark side = evil douchebags. All those piss-poor attempts to try to make them anti-heroes or sympathetic in their own right is thankfully washed away. All we know is they're evil, they're dicks, and they willingly embrace the dark side which is categorically and unarguably evil.

All this stuff about the Sith being sympathetic or somehow noble in their aspirations is, frankly, blatant fanboyism and blind idolisation, and I'm glad it's non-canon. It was a joke to begin with.

Meh.

I liked the notion of other writers and creators coming to make their own ideas with an established work, it's thanks to that prospect that a lot of people drew some not terrible ideas and stories out of shitty ideas and stories.

The Sith as an idea is one of them. Changing the Jedi from wandering and diversely mythical cowboy Samurai, into all of them being white hat monastic monks, who do nothing but exclusively fight angry dudes who wear all black and wield red lightsabers was awful. Complicating the Sith and making them more interesting with more engaging back stories, if they absolutely must be used going forward, is something that needs to happen.

Give me a pale Sith lady who wears all white and wields a white lightsaber, who uses the Force to stop people's hearts from beating and whose main goal is to find her lost child or something, give me something different.

TwoSidedHeart · Jun 17, 2014

Give me a pale Sith lady who wears all white and wields a white lightsaber, who uses the Force to stop people's hearts from beating and whose main goal is to find her lost child or something, give me something different.

This ^_^

Miz · Jun 17, 2014

I'd like the Sith to be present but not the main focus of the movie.

Cainhurst Crow · Jun 17, 2014

Well, we now have an entire clean slate to explore the nature of the force, light side, and dark side, and go in any direction we want. Be it a more dualistic two halves of the same coin approach where the dark side and the light side are both still part of the force, or a more classical moral absolutism approach of this side is always good and this side is always bad, and the dark side isn't even technically part of the force, just a corruption of it.

Miz · Jun 17, 2014

Bronitarian said:
Well, we now have an entire clean slate to explore the nature of the force, light side, and dark side, and go in any direction we want. Be it a more dualistic two halves of the same coin approach where the dark side and the light side are both still part of the force, or a more classical moral absolutism approach of this side is always good and this side is always bad, and the dark side isn't even technically part of the force, just a corruption of it.

the OT was so white and black. Lets start with getting rid of Light and Dark Side abilities.

Villains revealed?

Cainhurst Crow

Brandon Rhea

Shadow in the Starlight

Kaeb

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Marf

Cortan

Brandon Rhea

Shadow in the Starlight

Kaeb

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Brandon Rhea

Shadow in the Starlight

Kaeb

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Rom

Brandon Rhea

Shadow in the Starlight

Miz

#CriminalSupremacy

Green Ranger

DRAGONZORD!

Miz

#CriminalSupremacy

Cortan

Kaeb

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TwoSidedHeart

Shipper of Klance

Miz

#CriminalSupremacy

Cainhurst Crow

Miz

#CriminalSupremacy