5 year old shoots and kills 2 year old sister.

Lavish said:

Are you implying that Islam is about killing people? I'm out before I explode. I have friends who are Muslim, including one who reads the Bible alongside the Quran. They look at the Islamic insurgents the same way Christians look at Westboro Baptist Church (granted one is a shouting hate mob and the other is a shooting hate mob). I really hate this stereotype, especially since we were the ones who armed and trained the insurgents in Afghanistan and Iraq so that they can fight the Soviets.

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I didn't say they were about killing people, I said they do just as much as gun owners do, and that both sections are a minority.

Jason Webb said:

I didn't say they were about killing people, I said they do just as much as gun owners do, and that both sections are a minority.

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I find myself in more of line with your stance to a point due to my upbringing and experiences, but dragging religion into this isn't going to help anything.

Jason Webb said:

I didn't say they were about killing people, I said they do just as much as gun owners do, and that both sections are a minority.

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Certainly not in the United States. Islamic extremists have killed 4 Americans in the United States in 2013. Americans have shot and killed thousands upon thousands of Americans in 2013.

Prospero said:

Well don't I feel prescient for having mentioned fear of teh browns as one of the driving issues behind gun stockpiling/defending a sick gun culture.

But please Mr. Webb. Proceed.

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Lavish said:

Are you implying that Islam is about killing people? I'm out before I explode.

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Brandon Rhea said:

Certainly not in the United States. Islamic extremists have killed 4 Americans in the United States in 2013. Americans have shot and killed thousands upon thousands of Americans in 2013.

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Jason Webb said:

I didn't say they were about killing people, I said they do just as much as gun owners do, and that both sections are a minority.

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Your analogy only works from the perspective of someone who doesn't consider the backgrounds of either groups. Muslims are Muslims because they believe in Allah and gun owners are gun owners because they like guns or feel that they need a gun for ____ reason(s). The idea that Islam teaches the destruction of others is a radical choice that people can turn away from. As shown in the OP, guns can cause the destruction of others whether people want to or not.

Please don't bring up Islam again.

Jason Webb said:

I didn't say they were about killing people, I said they do just as much as gun owners do, and that both sections are a minority.

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That's mathematically impossible. See if you can stick with me here. Assume that Muslims number x kill people as a function of whatever means they have f(x).

Assume also that the majority of these (and we can assume say 70%) deaths are due to guns at the hands of Islamic gun owners. f(f(x))

Ergo, when you say that gun owners --f(g)-- are as likely as Muslims to kill people, you are literally equating a mathematical impossibility. Per set theory, f(x) and f(f(x)) are both subsets of f(g) and f(g) must always be > than f(x) and f(f(x)).

That is of course, ignoring how odious and completely nonsensical a non-sequitur this argument is, but I do think it's useful to look at how you can't even stay within your own premises.

All the best!

~Prospero

P.S. This is of course, ignoring that gun deaths in the US in 2010 alone reached ~35,000 whereas all terrorism --Islamic at least-- in the US has killed ~4000 people in the last fifteen or so years.

So y'know.

Bullshit.

Also, Jason, before you bring bring up a religion again (in this case Islam), pause for just five minutes, and consider that there may be in fact be a number of muslims on this site, or people whom have muslims as friends and/or family members?

To those of you with Muslim family members: Did you know that the Center for Bullshit Control says you are 37 times more likely than not to be terrorist-jihaded due to your dangerous affiliations? The CBC has also warned about associating with Jews (54 times more likely to lose your money in a shady transaction) and Spaniards (they are better lovers and will steal your mujer.)

As someone with the aforementioned MOOOOSLIM family members and friends, I do find his argument stupid and offensive, but also depressingly common. It's interesting how we can defend an endemic culture of violence when white people do it, but somehow totally lose our shit over the fact that the nice man down the street who sells delicious falalels may or may not own a Beretta 9mm.

After you mentioned falafel I got curious and went to see what it was. I have to go try that sometime, it sounds delicious.

Screw this, I think I'll just avoid the OOC board before I completely lose my sanity. I won't compromise the image of what I believe over a discussion where I have at least three (probably more) people with vastly superior debate skills.

Delicious. And dangerous.

Incidentally:

Leave Jason Aloooooooooone said:

Go ahead, hate me. Not like it's ever been any different.

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[YOUTUBE]hz8ul-gmLyA[/YOUTUBE]

Screw this, I think I'll just avoid the OOC board before I completely lose my sanity. I won't compromise the image of what I believe over a discussion where I have at least three (probably more) people with vastly superior debate skills.

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I'd quip here, but this is self-erotic auto-parody at its finest.

Man, I really want to go take a shower now.

lets not go baiting or anything guys,

but lets also rmember too some common courtesy - we do have members of the site from all over the world, all across the spectrum of faith/spirituality from far flung fundamentalists of a faith to the opposite extreme of not, or philosophies. Members of many ethnic heritages, of sexual preferences, mixed genders - and attacking ANY of those purely for the sake of it is not tolerated at any point-

I turn to the TOS for this: " You will not submit content that contains obscenities, pornography, profanity, slander, threats, sexual harassment, sexism, racism, homophobia, or other forms of discrimination directed towards another user, a third party, or in general."

while current affairs is more open for debates I stress that some common courtesies be put in before trying to place judgment on any of the above and include more than a " just because" sort of reasoning behind it.


now lets get this back on topic please

What kind of idiot hands a five year old a loaded 22. as a freaking gift??

Ijaa said:

What kind of idiot hands a five year old a loaded 22. as a freaking gift??

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Me. JUDGMENTAL MUCH?

Kiro said:

Remember, criminals are private citizens. If you prevent private citizens from ever purchasing them, then you'd severely limit a criminals' access to guns, either through proxy or not.

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You realize, that criminals find ways around legalities involving guns now in the US right? If you take guns away from the common ppl, even criminals, they will find ways to get them. Besides, if the government even succeded, and more knife murders happen, who's going to take away all knives?

Jax Vos said:

You realize, that criminals find ways around legalities involving guns now in the US right? If you take guns away from the common ppl, even criminals, they will find ways to get them. Besides, if the government even succeded, and more knife murders happen, who's going to take away all knives?

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So your argument is that if we can't stop 100% of gun related violence then we shouldn't even bother. Should we also say the same thing about crack or cocaine? I mean people are going to get it anyway, might as well make it all legal. Also murder, realistically we can't catch everyone so why bother trying to stop some people.

Jax Vos said:

You realize, that criminals find ways around legalities involving guns now in the US right? If you take guns away from the common ppl, even criminals, they will find ways to get them. Besides, if the government even succeded, and more knife murders happen, who's going to take away all knives?

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It's never that simple, Jax.
To commit murder with a knife, there needs to be a huge level of commitment. It suddenly becomes much more personal, and a lot of murder-intent criminals lose their nerve.

As far as crims finding their way around legalities - yes, sure. they will. It happens here in Australia. But limiting the amount of guns SOLD in the USA will reduce the amount of guns PRESENT in the USA which means there will be less incidents of gun-related killings.

No one is suggesting that controlling guns more tightly will solve all crime, but it will (as shown by Jiang, Prospero, Kiro and my own arguments) reduce gun-related deaths.

Shiuzu said:

So your argument is that if we can't stop 100% of gun related violence then we shouldn't even bother. Should we also say the same thing about crack or cocaine? I mean people are going to get it anyway, might as well make it all legal. Also murder, realistically we can't catch everyone so why bother trying to stop some people.

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No! My point is, that laws involving gun control only affect law abiding citizens. And I honesly believe that gun control is stupid. If you want proof of it look at the second amendment of the constitution: "The Right to Bare Arms" was made durring the Revolutionary War. Tking gus away is a violation of the Bill of Rights that the US constitution endorses.

Edit: my point has been said, I'm backing out now.

Jax, you clearly haven't read this thread at all.

It states that a well regulated militia, who's right to bear arms shall not be infringed.
Joe Bloggs with his 12 gauge shot gun of m-16 assault rifle is -not- a member of a well regulated militia.

Furthermore, you should read my previous post.