Attack on Anoth: Main Hall OOC

[Aaron Corinth]

No offense guys, but I think you're splitting hairs. Zen you tend to go into over detailed action with movements. It restricts the ability to respond and lengthens the post unnecessarily. As for the force versus martial artist, even in the rules the Force is the great equalizer basically it beats anything. As for the post if neither of you can figure it out get an admin to weigh in and give a judgement and lets move on.

 

[Wit]

I have already asked an admin to check in on this, tgis discussion is just going on on the side. We're waiting on a verdict. Sorry to the other participants for holding this up.

 

[Empress]

On the matter of " speed" I want to address something- I noticed people mentioning luke and guri- also look to qui-gon grabbing jar jar's tongue, but then look at many of the duels. force speed is pretty common all over. there ae scenes with the running portions of it too.....The thing here is that both individuals are trained force users of similar standing.....Force speed is an ability thats considered a basic skill, everyone has it, everyone uses it- you could say its almost a " pseudo passive " ability in a duel between two trained individuals . the very nature of said ability can be seen in both individuals ( yes falling onto trained instinctive conditioning like a martial art while being a force user would actually be basically the same thing "

long story short on the speed thing- the differences between the two really wouldn't be that great nor would perception be that off. ( however special conditions like armours ,injury, extensive fatigue etc could alter that )


Now The real problem arises in the " counter attack"

"He reacted to the attack at the last possible moment, igniting his lightsaber and striking at just the moment when the Jedi had fully committed to the strike and using his enhanced speed to swing his blade right through his arm, carving a path that would separate the arm from his body just below the elbow."

There is a vagueness, or rather a piece of critical information missing from this that really would effect everything to a major degree - regardless of the speed - one being " what classifies as last possible moment?" The attack is already in motion. As its written it appears he simply dives on in with a counter attack and ( successfully) lops off an arm. From here the big concern is there are too many potential variables to this situation , how is he bypassing the saber already coming at him in the first place? Id really consider rephrasing or clarifying that part above all else then worry about what happens after the attempt.


I can clarify if needed but I admit Im tired >.<

 

[Wit]

Just want to clarify that you're taking into consideration the fact that Zen's Jedi is not using the Force. You're saying their speeds would be the same even if one character is using Force Speed and the other isn't?

 

[Resolute\\.ZEN]

I think Empress has gotten to the heart of the problem. I think you presume the last second to be a little bit earlier than it is. As you were saying, Kronos acts just when the action is committed to, but as I've mentioned Ze'kyre commits to movements in the form of small micro movements as per his technique, the best possible way to manage ones momentum is to divide as many points as possible where it can be altered. If you're waiting for the attack to strike you then its not going to be so easy as bypassing the attack while hardly acknowledging it, especially if its already moving at you with great speed. I think that if you specified more of a time frame and detail of Kronos movements a little more clearly we could move on.

Aaron, the description you read is how I depict Ze'kyre's management of such movements. You don't stand up to another fighter and expect victory against someone who has paid attention to a lot more of the details. They know how to throw a meaner punch, how to block them more often. They know where one foot has to be in order to put the other where they want it while defending their base. It's a matter of technique. It is my goal to keep Ze'kyre and my opponent aware his technique. It would be hard to explain halting his momentum if I had not provided everyone with the description of how and when it is done effectively. In a real fight it matters completely, in a novel it doesn't because whoever the author wants to win for the sake of the story will win and its just a matter of exciting the reader. I understand that you don't want all of those details when you're reading a novel, but this is not a novel. It is my duty as his opponent to make it hard for him to reply, and for him to do the same of me. I believe that to be the nature of PvP. There is no corner to be written into without first designing it with the details.

But anyhow Wit, I think we can resolve this right now by specifying where in my character's actions your character actually begins acting himself. Then I will edit my post according to your characters new sense of timing. Also if you provide directional arcs for your blade it will give us both more to work with throughout the rest of this battle. Feet are also important, if you ask me. They get you in and out, and are possibly the most important for balance, so you might as well depict their movements. But in any case, let us know what you think about the whole thing.

I know that people are getting impatient, but we are a lot further than we were initially with this. Thank you for everyones help and maturity in resolving the matter.

 

[Empress]

What Im saying is that technically " who is faster" is a moot point at the moment as there is a vagueness in the attack on the jedi that if not addressed would basically make everything redundant - and that is again " what is the last possible moment?" what, and where in the jedi's strike is the counter attack launched ?, what was he doing about the opponents initial attack? there is a step missing here that if not addressed honestly would make the whole thing pointless speed differences or not



I said given a few factors and such- the differences would not be as great - but indeed different
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_speed

but again some aspects of the ability are passive conditioned instinctual ones as is- the whole " jedi reflexes" that all force users have since or even before training- technically still IS this ability

pushing it to a more advanced use? then yes that takes more work, again a basic ability and one trained from the very start for use with duels - there are a few tiers of the ability really and to be honest the wording and all still suggests hes using one of the lower tiers of said ability while you pushed for a burst ( also remember that bursts are really exhausting physically too)

so yes you technically are faster, physically - perception wise - both are about the same - but again.. there is something needing addressed/clarified first or the whole point more or less moot.

 

[Wit]

Edited to clear some details, let me know if that's alright Zen.

 

[Resolute\\.ZEN]

See, I really like that! I know that most people wouldn't be so descriptive when writing a book or so but I think even just the added sentence or two really makes for much more graphic stuff that I can visualize with a lot more lucidity. I don't know if it really makes for great writing but I love it myself. Then again, my love for bruce lee probably borders on the realm of unhealthiness haha.

Anyway, I'm going to edit my post to reflect this but before I do can I bother you for two more details?

1. If I were to say upward, I'd mean in a completely vertical, perpindicular line upwards. Since you're trying to cut my wrist off, I'm assuming that you mean to do this with less of an angle than this arc would create, which would mean that your blade would want to move more in a diagonal fashion. In lieu of all these details it should be easy to just say from which hip to which shoulder does the arc move in. As well as with which hand are you moving your blade with? I myself would also add if it is a back hand or forehand swing. ((Edit: But it could be that you just mean upwards, as if to impale my arm.))

2. You do specify a step in order to close the distance, which was good because it means I can't say that you're off balance. But I'd be curious to know with which foot you are stepping forward with.

 

[Sreeya]

ZEN, once you're done with this, pvp me in the dueling ring area. :D

 

[Wit]

See, I really like that! I know that most people wouldn't be so descriptive when writing a book or so but I think even just the added sentence or two really makes for much more graphic stuff that I can visualize with a lot more lucidity. I don't know if it really makes for great writing but I love it myself. Then again, my love for bruce lee probably borders on the realm of unhealthiness haha.

Anyway, I'm going to edit my post to reflect this but before I do can I bother you for two more details?

1. If I were to say upward, I'd mean in a completely vertical, perpindicular line upwards. Since you're trying to cut my wrist off, I'm assuming that you mean to do this with less of an angle than this arc would create, which would mean that your blade would want to move more in a diagonal fashion. In lieu of all these details it should be easy to just say from which hip to which shoulder does the arc move in. As well as with which hand are you moving your blade with? I myself would also add if it is a back hand or forehand swing. ((Edit: But it could be that you just mean upwards, as if to impale my arm.))

2. You do specify a step in order to close the distance, which was good because it means I can't say that you're off balance. But I'd be curious to know with which foot you are stepping forward with.

Cheers! Ze'kyre is striking with his right hand, right? Then Kronos is striking with his left, imagine him holding the blade horizontal so that the tips pointing to Kronos' right and the blade's parallel to his torso. He then swinging it in a counter-clockwise arc while keeping it parallel to the himself. As for the foot, keeping with Ze'kyre striking with his right hand, Kronos is swinging with his left so its the left foot he puts forward.

 

[Resolute\\.ZEN]

So the arc is more of a pivot based on a turn from his wrist and elbow, correct? Like an outward swipe of the blade, more so than a swing of the arm?

I think I get it, I will edit my post according to this. Expect it soon.

EDIT: I've got my post edited. Hoping that now everything makes sense to everyone and we can move on! :) Thanks for everyone's help in getting this sorted out.

 

[Raydo]

So is it still Wit's turn or who's turn is it? I forget

 

[Resolute\\.ZEN]

You'd might as well go all things considered. No point in holding it up any longer than we need to.

 

[Raydo]

Sorry for the delay in posting. It is up now.

 

[Resolute\\.ZEN]

I'd say we're just about evened out chronologically at this point but given the more immediate nature of the fight between Kronos and Ze'kyre I might post before Aaron, if no one objects.

Just waiting for some clarification through PM before I do.

 

[Resolute\\.ZEN]

Sorry for the double, but I am still waiting for Sid to clear up a few points I made about his last post before I can post myself. I apologize for the delay.

Edit: Sorry guys, there is still a bit of confusion. We're wrinkling it out.

 

[Sreeya]

Zen, for all your details, you're incredibly vague about your positioning. I'm going to watch this thread now because it seems like you're taking entirely too many liberties and trying to dictate far too much what your opponent can/can't do. I have a pvp background and I'm a sucker for details, but you're leaving out details that matter and putting in fluff that doesn't.

For all your pivots you don't describe what axis you turn on, which direction, where that puts you in relation to the opponent, what degree turn, what horizontal means, what vertical means, etc.

For example, in your initial post you start this:

Pivoting on his left toe, he brought his right knee up and let his entire centre of gravity fall down upon the strike.

And then you follow up Sid's reply to that post with this:

As Ze'kyre's foot slammed upon the ground the densely corded muscles in his calf erupted and the weight of his knee was catapulted over the ball of his foot. Having kept his gravity evenly centred, it was buoyant and now his heel came down right where Kronos' left foot was landing with enough Force to break a couple of the small bones in the top of the foot.

I understand that your second post is a continuation of movement from your initial, but you PLACED Sid there for your convenience. If you're not trying to do a continous movement, how do you have all that time to stomp down with full gravity launched into your initial attack and then ONCE AGAIN doing it to stamp down on Kronos' foot while having enough time to block his saber, re-angle your saber, etc. in the time it takes him to do one motion up?

Your readjustment is completely unclear. You use a lot of pretty words, but you're telling nothing. Redo your reply please, because it seems like you're purposely trying to confuse people and having them submit to what you believe they'd do instead of really specifying what YOU'RE doing. I can tell what's fluff and what's relevant, and you have a LOT of fluff. Your response in reply 10 is horribly sloppy and does not at all lay out exactly how you're doing what. Write your position in relation to your opponent.

And so by suddenly tensing this group of muscles, as well as tempering the movements with his bicep, Ze'kyre was able to bring the base of his blade right by his face as it continued on its rolling arc out toward the Sith. For one flash framed instant, the light of the blade covered the echani's fair skinned face with a swatch of saphire, the blue reflecting strongly in his silver hair and eye as he glared up into the soul of his opponent. Another likened instant and both blades would be found near parallel, almost touching one another but for the fact that Kronos' was moving upwards and outwards, and Ze'kyre's was moving in a now horizontal arc that would separate the Sith at the waist.

That paragraph does nothing to outline exactly how you're positioning your saber.

Ze'kyre was able to bring the base of his blade right by his face as it continued on its rolling arc out toward the Sith.

What is that? Can you write that as 'withdrawing his blade's towards the right/left side of his face'? Because as it is, that tells me nothing. What rolling arc out? You were doing a downward slash. And furthermore, you wrote your hips were wide open and at the same time you write this:

as his foot landed on the ground before him with a thunderous thud,

The above implies a completely different stance than "With his core tight and his hips open wide" which strongly suggests, based on your writing, something more like a horse stance in martial arts.

and Ze'kyre's was moving in a now horizontal arc that would separate the Sith at the waist.

The above quote makes no sense as there is no detailed lead in to HOW you suddenly got to the horizontal arc and how it became anywhere aligned to Sid's waist and from which side. This is what you wrote before it:

For one flash framed instant, the light of the blade covered the echani's fair skinned face with a swatch of saphire, the blue reflecting strongly in his silver hair and eye as he glared up into the soul of his opponent.

Pretty blue and silvery hair, awesome, great, does NOTHING to tell me how your saber got from point A to point B. You may have others convinced that your details are for pvp purposes, but you're definitely omitting crucial information and banking on your opponents misreading your reply to fill in the details later at your convenience.

Redo your reply please. And leave out the fluff. I have a pretty good bs detector. ;)

 

[Wit]

I have to agree with the above concerns Zen, even after discussing it over PMs I am still very much confused about exactly your character was doing in that post.

 

[Resolute\\.ZEN]

Hey Sreeya, I'm glad that you have decided to follow this and help us keep it running smoothly :) But before I go edit anything I'd like to point out a few things that might be sparking confusion after the matter. Just for the sake of making sure I'm clear about a couple of tidbits that I fully meant to get across in my original depiction of Ze'kyre's actions. Given that Sid was made to edit and I had to edit accordingly, and that there has been a good deal of OOC discussion between the two of us, it is more than possible some things got lost in the transition, but I do think that if you can see past the 'fluff' you'll find it is all there, and that I am in fact not pulling anything out of my butt, at least not on purpose. That would be especially gross.

There is only one pivot. In the first quote of your post you can see that the axis is described to be that of where his toe meets the ground (actually the ball of the foot but this is a minor distinction for such a movement, at least with shoes on). Combined with his wide-hipped position and his foot landing before him, all of which I provide, I shouldn't have to say 'ninety degrees' for it to be evident that he is now sideways. You are correct, this is a way to enter horse stance, a term I used through PM to help Sid understand this as well. Thats what I was going for and you seem to have understood this without question, so I'm unsure where the confusion here is rooted, especially since Sid has shown me that he has a thorough understanding of this much at this point. Anyhow, considering Ze'kyre's left foot to be the point of axis (As I clearly depict in the first quote you provide), this would be the left side of his own body that he is turning towards. For him to turn clockwise would require at least another sentence of fluff. Also considering that his right foot lands to catch his momentum, quite clearly it is a counter-clockwise turn, and just as clearly is his right foot now forward to meet Kronos. I thought I had more than adequately described the positioning of his stance, as all these points are made in my original writing, and I also attempted to describe it in relation to where he wants to be (and is doing what he can to ensure he is) in regards to Kronos.

Also, you are right to read it as a continuous motion, this was meant to be clear about halfway through the first paragraph of post #10, in the second quote of mine that you provide. Within which I have also provided the technique with which he 'catapults' his foot forward, which clearly calls for immediacy given my word choice in said paragraph.

But what I'm confused about is: Where do you mean that I placed Kronos, Sreeya? If I've described anything about Kronos' positioning that you did not provide to me, Sid, please speak up about it, it is not my intention to control your character (directly anyway, of course Ze'kyre wants to control his opponent just as any tactically minded combatant would). That being said, I would like to point out that having Kronos' left foot step forward in order for him to do his original counter-attack was something Sid described to me. Since my original attack was anticipating to just penetrate the skull with the very tip, this speaks towards a range that Ze'kyre is setting up.

Although Sid did not describe the step itself, I asked him about it, since acting at the last second as he does would ensure that he is not close enough to cut off the attacking arm without taking a step forward or severely unbalancing himself. This is consequentially why he would be close enough for my knee to straighten momentarily and land with a foot on his own, given the highly trained fast-twitch muscles in Ze'kyre's calves. (Much more movement on Kronos' part than a simple motion upwards, even if that is the end goal of the lightsaber, and a commonly used and widespread technique with minimal movement on Ze'kyre's part, from the point when Sid starts moving anyway)

When the entirety of his weight comes down upon the strike, as I wrote it, this does not mean he lands with all of his weight on the right foot or anything silly. This phrasing represents control and power within my own character, and a balance of motion when combined with his tightened core and whip-like attack, and foremost, the redirection of his momentum first upwards, than down into the ground where he now had complete control and a balanced form with which he can use such footwork. From horse stance it is easy to shoot out your foot in such a fashion as Ze'kyre did. Maybe not for most of us, but for houses of most northern east-asian styles of wushu this sort of footwork is commonplace(Northern Shaolin styles in particular are what I base Ze'kyre's technique from so that more than fits).

The idea that Ze'kyre is performing a downward swing is both vague and lacking precision, and not one that I intended to provide you all with in post six, hence my use of the term 'whip-like'. Since Sid and I first began discussing the battle I've been explaining that it is not so simply a swing. Yes the arm starts relatively straight, but the act of it unfurling (as I depict it) means that it can not have stayed straight as he brought his foot down into horse stance. "Whip-like fashion," You don't crack a whip by swinging it, you do so by rolling it. You want the whip to act as an extension to your arm, therefore you want your arm to work in the fashion that the whip works in to a degree, as if your elbow is unfurling, as I depict Ze'kyre's to be. I thought I describe all of this quite nicely, and even if not I've been over it multiple times with multiple people who seem to see that it is there. But if its simpler to maybe say that it's a swing that starts more like a thrust I guess I can throw that in. Please don't expect me to be taking much out though, when I do edit, I'll likely be having Ze'kyre do the exact same thing he is already doing, because I am confident it works the way I am intending to use it.

On the contrary, I believe the section of my paragraph which you provide more than adequately describes the re-positioning of the blade. I will break it down, but all of these points are in that quote. The group of muscles in question ranges (as I provide in post ten, right before the start of your quote) primarily from the deltoid to the latissimus delsi. If you attempt to flex this part of your body you will see that it is useful for pulling your arm downwards and outwards (As in behind you), such as when you do chin ups. Given that this is a group of muscles Ze'kyre is using and the extent to which I describe him using them, it is easy to see which way the blade is going, especially given the following sentences. I mentioned the bicep so as to be clear that Ze'kyre's arm is not yet in extension (since that's pretty well what the bicep does) until after the end of the post. I also state that consequentially this makes their blades parallel, but since his sword is at first overhead he now has to bring it by his face to get it in such a position, something that I also describe, apparently quite prettily, thank ya :) I'm sorry if this seems like its supposed to confuse you, buts its not something a couple of minutes on google and some critical reading won't help clarify.

So for an instant the blades are parallel, Kronos' moving upwards and Ze'kyre's moving downwards and outwards, as these two particular muscles help us do so well. All of this is provided. We also know that the blades are pointing the same direction at this point. Ze'kyre is flexible but not so flexible that he can turn his elbow completely outwards so that his forearm can reach behind him palm up, as it would have to be to become parallel and directed the opposite way, and even if this were what he was doing I would have mentioned the muscles in his chest, opposed to those in his back. Therefore it is easy to decipher from which direction the blade is coming and to which it is going. Or maybe it is not easy, but if you can manage to get by all the fluff, you'll see that I am not just filling in the gaps as I see fit. If post number ten seems at all discombobulated I posit that maybe it is because you are not viewing it as a continual movement from post number six.

And if this is not the case, I wholly apologize. It is not my intention to be facetious, and it is definitely not my intention to be vague. But that being said it is completely common for people to be confused by that which actually makes sense. If everything I point out here is not absolutely clear by the time you have read this and inspected over the IC with these thoughts in mind, then I will make editing post ten a top priority (well, as far as my free time goes). But it will only get longer. I don't believe in fluff, but I won't go through and describe the significance of each sentence. Even the things that seem beside the point, like the colour of Ze'kyre's hair and eye only draw attention to the fact that he is keeping his eyes on Kronos' own. From here all sorts of implications can be made, just as they would be in a real battle.

Anyhow, since Sid has expressed a rather thorough understanding of my positioning in his last PM (at least regarding the stance), just as you seemed to pick up right away, Sreeya, I hope we can continue by treating this as the non issue it has become. This leaves the arm/lightsaber.

So then if the motion of the arm is now clear I think its safe to say we are back to the point where I can ask Sid to address the points I made in my last PM to him. If the 'whip-like fashion' and 'latissimus dorsi' and other such fluff is not cutting it for you guys, then allow me to add a few blunt sentences to the end of my paragraphs that may help you to see the immediately relevant stuff. But please don't assume the rest is unimportant. I would not have took the time to think about and describe the location of those pillars in my first post if I did not think somebody might get backed up against one, and I can bet without even going to check that most of my writing is full of things of this sort that I'll be keen to take advantage of, even if my opponent is not. The assumption that this type of thing is irrelevant or unimportant fluff means you'd be less likely to use the tools I provide for you as an opponent.

But in any case, sorry for not getting this up sooner, had it mostly written out hours ago but I didn't want to rush it, and you know how life is. Let me know what y'all think. I will certainly make things clear for those who might be a bit late to the party but again, the post will only get longer. I don't think I wrote about anything that warrants being told I can not write about it. If you don't think its relevant you might as well just enjoy my use of pretty words :P

But alas, another seven hour day of rehearsals tomorrow, followed with another show. I may not have the chance to get on in the next twenty four hours or so but I will try to find the time to address any concerns that are still glaring when I can.

 

[GABA]

Duuuuuuuude
O_O

I think I need cliff's notes.