Depth OOC

[Phoenix]

(Welcome to the fight, ya'll. Few things to note, there are no red lightsabers here, blue, green and gold are the colors you're seeing. [EDIT: redacted, thank you.] Secondly, Cato strictly and devoutly practices the light side of the force. The darkness your characters are sensing on him is probably just your upper lip. I ask you edit your posts and possibly review ours before we continue, and I'll stick my post here after.)

( @Phoenix | @Kal Vox | @Valen Pelora | @Evalyn Dan’ela )

Spoiler: PVP Loadout

[Equipment]
■ Armor Dark Hunter Armor

[Weapons]
■ Primary Lightsaber Staff
■ Secondary Stinger Stun Blaster
■ Offhand Flight Dagger x4

I have quoted your post here and removed the IC post. You do not get credits for posting OOC arguments in IC threads. Please refrain from doing so in the future.

Secondly, "Cato strictly and devoutly practices the light side of the force. The darkness your characters are sensing on him is probably just your upper lip. I ask you edit your posts and possibly review ours before we continue, and I'll stick my post here after."

I'd appreciate it if you could cut the sass back by about 100%. Thanks. I already took out the lightsaber note, which I had thought I took out before posting. As for the "strictly and devoutly practices the light side of the force" perhaps you should look at the character profiles of your partners that reference "He embraced the dark side. He reveled in passion and anarchy" and "He operates in a pernicious and subversive manner at all times" and "Hesh had sensed, forcibly, all the passion and darkness within Elias."

So, no, I will not be altering my post. Dark Side like that clings to you.

As for whether they would attack you even if you were not using the Dark Side, you are all Exiles. Please see the announcement from discord:

Sreeya - Last Saturday at 11:00 AM
@everyone If your char backstory involves them leaving the Jedi Order or the Exiles, this will have consequences. Your former Jedi will be considered more or less an exile and an enemy to the Jedi. If you’ve left the Exiles, you’ll be considered a liability and potentially be hunted by other Exiles. There will be no Willy nilly just “nah I don’t feel like being a Jedi or exile anymore” type backstories. Your choices have weight and repercussions.

@Valen Pelora @Soverin @Incubus @blstrgmr

 

[Soverin]

I intended to delete my post, but posting here is far more prudent. Thanks for the correction.

The intent was less sass more humor, but I get that emotional tone is hard to convey through text. I apologize if my sense of humor was harsh / feelings were hurt.

re: the exile announcement - To my point, Cato's back story doesn't involve leaving the Jedi Order at all -- as he never joined. He encountered the jedi only once, and they were "a disperished band of knights and apprentices" as it states in my backstory, there was no hostility during their encounter and at the time he was nothing but a wandering vagabond. His current plot revolves around finding and formally joining the exiles, as I want to tackle everything in his story organically through writing. His only claim to being an exile in the current is personal devotion and his relationship with a close friend who is personally an exile.

 

[Soverin]

Also, Elias and Cato are not partners to an IC extent. They met each other (and entered the same vicinity of each other) a post before you two entered. I find it extremely difficult to reason, nor believe, that the dark side would cling to him -- even less so cause him to STINK of the dark side -- in what logically is like a span of 4 minutes.

You came into the post, which is absolutely fine and I welcome the friendly competition! but then you made assumptions left and right, leading me to believe our posts weren't even read, and this PVP is just for a cheap kill and not any story purpose (which is still completely fine, shady, but fine.) But you must understand why this has raises suspicion.
We just want our corrections before we go on.

I can't speak for my OOC partners, but I can tell you there is nothing incriminating to Cato's back story that'll lead me to believe you'd just immediately be able to call him out as your enemy.

 

[Phoenix]

I intended to delete my post, but posting here is far more prudent. Thanks for the correction.

The intent was less sass more humor, but I get that emotional tone is hard to convey through text. I apologize if my sense of humor was harsh / feelings were hurt.

It happens

Also, Elias and Cato are not partners to an IC extent. They met each other (and entered the same vicinity of each other) a post before you two entered. I find it extremely difficult to reason, nor believe, that the dark side would cling to him -- even less so cause him to STINK of the dark side -- in what logically is like a span of 4 minutes.

Well that doesn't change the fact that the other two would. Which would still constitute a "them" when referring to "stink." Kal may or may not know if they're together but he knows that at least 2 of 3 are enemies.

 

[Valen Pelora]

For clairty, I agree with Phoe and now that he has changed the saber colors will not be making any edits to my post.

 

[Soverin]

My concerns have been addressed. I'll leave any other specifics to my OOC partners in the thread.

 

[Incubus]

I would like to state, explicitly, why I have no intention to be involved in this conflict - which to me was initiated in an incredibly lazy, unfair and unsportsmanlike manner.

1. They assumed too much, and didn't seem to read the thread.
A. They stated we were all wielding red lightsabers - none of us were, and we incessantly mentioned the color of our sabers in this thread - yellow, blue, green. This was changed, but it shows that the posts were clearly not read previously, which in my opinion should not be allowed if one is going to set up a PvP scenario such as this.
B. All of us apparently drip dark side, which is just not correct. I agree that I worded Elias to sound more dark side than I intended, so I'm perfectly happy to say that Elias seems pretty dark side. But Cato and Hesh are not, and there is nothing that would make evident that they are Darksiders. Elias' only 'proof' would be his slight leaning to darkside morality. Even using my previous profile's information, the information listed regarding Elias' morality cannot reasonably expand to being any more than chaotic neutral. However, I'm happy to say that they sensed Elias' darkness. That's fine.
C. Apparently, Cato and Elias are allies, even though they're explicitly fighting each other. This is more proof that the thread was not previously read before entering.

2. They reinvented the entire cantina to look completely different so that it would suit their posts. They both concealed their force presence to that of a pinprick, apparently, and got up on a cantina ledge that they decided to create when they entered - we never had one, and it was fairly evident that the cantina had one floor, based on the physical description of having cage dancers, booths, a central bar, with no mention of any ledge or podium, or stairs. To reinvent the scene without asking for permission, to me, seems it should also be against the rules considering you are - without asking - forcefully reforming the way the environment appears to the people who built it in-thread. This seems highly unfair.

It seems clear to me that the cantina was redesigned to make it impossible for us to detect them, whereas with the layout we'd all previously understood (with one floor) we would clearly see them.

3. It feels godmodded. The two Jedi somehow put themselves into the most advantageous position 'behind the scenes', already being in a perfectly suitable location for a snipe somehow without our knowledge, instead of just entering the cantina like what would - to me - seem much more fair and honorable. So, they set it up like they'd always been there, and thus could get into a perfect situation to fight us, while concealing their presence perfectly and forcing the assumption that our presence wasn't concealed at all.

When I brought this up to Phoenix, he decided to go through my profile and emphasize snippets of my character's backstory to make it seem like Elias is a full on darksider (thus would've been obvious), when that really isn't the case. They also then edited out all of the proof that they had not really read the thread. This is fine - I'm fine with the correction. However, if that's the case, hopefully we can also accept that the word 'embrace' in my profile was not correct, and thus have fixed it.

4. When I brought this up and tried to make clear that I didn't want to PvP, Phoenix told me he did not want to talk about it further and told me to publicly post something in the OOC about it, on the website, if I wanted to have my concerns addressed - even though they were concerns from player to player.

5. They didn't ask us anything, tell us anything, which to me seems - again - unsportsmanlike, especially when assuming so much and forcefully presuming such an advantageous position. If this is how PvP on this website is, where one can simply reshape the world around them if they happen to join the thread later, I have protestations about the way the PvP system is set up.

Furthermore, final point:

6. Sreeya's discord announcement doesn't give Jedi the right to automatically metagame if someone is or isn't an Exile. I have not once immediately utilized someone's force to determine exactly what faction they're a part of, and I personally don't think it's fair. If someone is going to enter a thread late and claim they can't be detected, meaning they've been suppressing their energy from before any of us entered the cantina (which to me sounds exhaustive), one should extend the opportunity for the other RPer to do the same. Otherwise, you have people entering the RP in an advantageous fashion, and essentially stacking the deck as much as they can, without being polite and respectful to the other RPer. To me, this is incredibly toxic, and promotes an unhealthy PvP environment, and RP environment as a whole.

 

[blstrgmr]

I'm just chiming in to say that I'm lurking on the thread and am more or less having my concerns addressed with Incubus who is a better speaker than I am. Regardless of outcome, I hope we can all keep a cool head and continue to be cool with each other down the line.

 

[Incubus]

Yeah. I apologize if my words seem very blunt, I'm just kind of a debater at heart. I also did apologize to Phoenix on Disc for anything I've said that seems accusatory - I really just am saying this the way I see it, from a hopefully objectivist perspective (though of course I'm biased, we all are).

However, I do stand by what I've said, and genuinely wish to be excused from this thread. I don't think the way it was set up was conductive to promoting a friendly and pro character development thread, which I should hope is the goal of all RP on this site, PvP or not.

 

[Valen Pelora]

Yeah. I apologize if my words seem very blunt, I'm just kind of a debater at heart. I also did apologize to Phoenix on Disc for anything I've said that seems accusatory - I really just am saying this the way I see it, from a hopefully objectivist perspective (though of course I'm biased, we all are).

However, I do stand by what I've said, and genuinely wish to be excused from this thread. I don't think the way it was set up was conductive to promoting a friendly and pro character development thread, which I should hope is the goal of all RP on this site, PvP or not.

Any exit from the thread has to be RPed out and would be subject to interruption.

 

[Incubus]

Sure. However, I contest the entire premise of both of your posts, based on my arguments above. I do not believe your posts were mindful whatsoever of what we all established. I would also additionally like to state that Soverin (Cato) and us were not previously friends or any such thing, we wanted merely to throw ourselves into a thread and see how our characters react to one another. Despite this, we all had a mutual understanding of the layout of the cantina and all of that, which seemed very evident from reading the thread. I'm contesting your posts to this thread based on the fact that they, without anyone else's permission, completely reshaped the environment solely for the purpose of getting into an advantageous position - which in my opinion is very clearly a form of godmodding.

I would also like all of my other points - such as metagaming in regards to Hesh and Cato - to be considered. I would also like to bring up once more that Elias loudly stated that he was a Jedi to Cato, and that if these posts are validated, that means that this behavior of reshaping the environment without asking and detecting minute amounts of dark force from a long distance for the sake of setting up spontaneous cheapshots are being validated by the moderators.

This is not healthy, it's actually very toxic.

 

[Phoenix]

I would like to state, explicitly, why I have no intention to be involved in this conflict - which to me was initiated in an incredibly lazy, unfair and unsportsmanlike manner.

1. They assumed too much, and didn't seem to read the thread.
A. They stated we were all wielding red lightsabers - none of us were, and we incessantly mentioned the color of our sabers in this thread - yellow, blue, green. This was changed, but it shows that the posts were clearly not read previously, which in my opinion should not be allowed if one is going to set up a PvP scenario such as this.

Something that has already been changed. Stop trying to cloud the issue

B. All of us apparently drip dark side, which is just not correct. I agree that I worded Elias to sound more dark side than I intended, so I'm perfectly happy to say that Elias seems pretty dark side. But Cato and Hesh are not, and there is nothing that would make evident that they are Darksiders. Elias' only 'proof' would be his slight leaning to darkside morality. Even using my previous profile's information, the information listed regarding Elias' morality cannot reasonably expand to being any more than chaotic neutral. However, I'm happy to say that they sensed Elias' darkness. That's fine.

This right there is grounds for a Jedi to attack.

C. Apparently, Cato and Elias are allies, even though they're explicitly fighting each other. This is more proof that the thread was not previously read before entering.

I'm not arguing that they're friends. The exact quote I made was: "For two people who haven't attacked you to let you close a thread when you have a 3v2 advantage. Yes, very unsportsmanlike." This after you called me a bully and told me I was unsportsmanlike. If and when you all figure out you're on the same side that statement still holds true.

2. They reinvented the entire cantina to look completely different so that it would suit their posts. They both concealed their force presence to that of a pinprick, apparently, and got up on a cantina ledge that they decided to create when they entered - we never had one, and it was fairly evident that the cantina had one floor, based on the physical description of having cage dancers, booths, a central bar, with no mention of any ledge or podium, or stairs. To reinvent the scene without asking for permission, to me, seems it should also be against the rules considering you are - without asking - forcefully reforming the way the environment appears to the people who built it in-thread. This seems highly unfair.
It seems clear to me that the cantina was redesigned to make it impossible for us to detect them, whereas with the layout we'd all previously understood (with one floor) we would clearly see them.

You never mentioned this being a one floor establishment. If you can point me to where you did, I'll gladly change it.

3. It feels godmodded. The two Jedi somehow put themselves into the most advantageous position 'behind the scenes', already being in a perfectly suitable location for a snipe somehow without our knowledge, instead of just entering the cantina like what would - to me - seem much more fair and honorable. So, they set it up like they'd always been there, and thus could get into a perfect situation to fight us, while concealing their presence perfectly and forcing the assumption that our presence wasn't concealed at all.

If you can point me to anywhere where you mention concealing your presence that will change this entire scenario, wouldn't it?

When I brought this up to Phoenix, he decided to go through my profile and emphasize snippets of my character's backstory to make it seem like Elias is a full on darksider (thus would've been obvious), when that really isn't the case. They also then edited out all of the proof that they had completely not read the thread. This is fine - I'm fine with the correction. However, if that's the case, hopefully we can also accept that the word 'embrace' in my profile was not correct, and thus have fixed it.

You don't get to get angry at me when you have a character profile written, I follow it, and then you tell me that "He embraced the Dark Side" DOESN'T mean he embraced the Dark Side. You can't just change the character for convenience's sake. This is why we have character profiles.

4. When I brought this up and tried to make clear that I didn't want to PvP, Phoenix told me he did not want to talk about it further and told me to publicly post something in the OOC about it, on the website, if I wanted to have my concerns addressed - even though they were concerns from player to player.

I had no interest in engaging you on discord after you called me a bully, you're correct. As soon as the argument turns to personal attacks, you forfeit all right to try to talk to me "player to player" as you like to call it.

5. They didn't ask us anything, tell us anything, which to me seems - again - unsportsmanlike, especially when assuming so much and forcefully presuming such an advantageous position. If this is how PvP on this website is, where one can simply reshape the world around them if they happen to join the thread later, I have protestations about the way the PvP system is set up.

I will continue to wait for you to show me where what was written explicitly violates what you have written, then I will reevaluate editing. In the meantime, I might recommend googling the phrase "two story clubs." Such as this image, the first one on google images with a central bar, booths, two stories, and plenty of room for cage dancers if they wanted it.

Furthermore, final point:

6. Sreeya's discord announcement doesn't give Jedi the right to automatically metagame if someone is or isn't an Exile. I have not once immediately utilized someone's force to determine exactly what faction they're a part of, and I personally don't think it's fair. If someone is going to enter a thread late and claim they can't be detected, meaning they've been suppressing their energy from before any of us entered the cantina (which to me sounds exhaustive), one should extend the opportunity for the other RPer to do the same. Otherwise, you have people entering the RP in an advantageous fashion, and essentially stacking the deck as much as they can, without being polite and respectful to the other RPer. To me, this is incredibly toxic, and promotes an unhealthy PvP environment, and RP environment as a whole.

You are a Dark Sider per your own profile. I did not metagame.

I will continue to wait for any example of a rule that has been broken. At this point, all you have done is insult me OOC.

 

[Incubus]

I knew you would say 'if you can prove it's one floor, I'll change it,' but that actually has nothing to do with what I'm saying. I'm saying that you're deciding that it's two floored, without the permission of the three people who were previously writing 10,000~ words in this thread, who all were imagining it as being a one floor establishment. You forced us to adapt to your perception of the thread, which was CLEARLY to give yourself an RP advantage. No one was asked, no one agreed. This IS unsportsmanlike, and it IS godmodding. That is the rule that is being broken.

Anyway, I did not personally attack you, or call you a bully. This is my exact quote:

"One thing I want to say is that it seems incredibly unsportsmanlike for two people to enter at a perfectly opportune moment, perfectly set it up so they can't be detected (whilst not offering to presume that the target may have equally suppressed their force), and then prepare immediately for the easiest method to take advantage of a situation, all while clearly not reading the previous posts (since it was mentioned incessantly what colors our sabers were), and without providing any level of heads-up to the RPers engaged in conflict, nor making the intentions known

I understand that this site may allow PvP, but this to me seems inherently toxic and almost bullying to new players."

I was stating that the way this was being instigated felt 'almost bullying' because we were new, which is a big gap from directly calling you a bully. I was clearly stating that if this was the RP environment the site maintained when it came to PvP, it felt like a bullying system. That is far different than calling you, directly, a bully. To put this argument in more relatable terms, if I were to declare that -x medical practice- was evil, all of those who participate in that practice are not therefore evil.

Furthermore, you did not answer my question as to why Cato and Hesh are being painted beneath the same brush as Elias. Elias was never singled out by your characters, all of them are somehow darksiders because one of them slightly leans dark. That concern was never addressed.

Furthermore, I have not insulted you OOCly, and I explicitly apologized on Discord for anything I said that might seem accusatory, making it clear that I did not intend to accuse you in the slightest, but that I don't believe the way PvP is conducted on this site seems healthy from my observation. You are leaving out MASSIVE parts of the story here.

Furthermore, you continue to not address the ethical arguments being presented. It's all just, "If I can stretch the rules as much as possible to make this work within it, then it's not unsportsmanlike, it's not unhealthy, and it's not toxic RP behavior." I contest that. It is. Meanwhile, Cato clarifying his post OOCly was something that was personally attacked, as he was called sassy.

The truth is, our posts were either skimmed, or outright not read. This was conducted in a gamey, if not entirely godmoddy, manner. Obviously ANYONE would be upset by this. And all protests regarding it are being labeled as personal attacks. This is, as a new member, incredibly disparaging.

 

[Sreeya]

...Soooooo has a pvp actually started here yet? Where's the attacking?

 

[Rrikak Rhozz]

Golly! I didn't know that this thread would blow up so hard when i asked to join. (I'm sorry I haven't posted yet btw) Am I still okay to join or would you rather not add more Jedi to the bunch?

 

[Incubus]

@Sreeya No, not yet. I was simply saying that the way their characters entered the thread seemed unsportsmanlike and unfair, and I wish they asked us before changing the layout of the cantina so drastically. Additionally, it was clarified to blstrgmr that the intention was to attack or kill, so PvP was in fact going to happen - but I'm really, really unhappy in the unhealthy way it is being initiated. I just don't want to be involved in something like that, it seems really toxic.

EDIT: @Rrikak Rhozz Well, join if you want I guess? But it might be followed by a hasty retreat or something of the like.

 

[Phoenix]

1. Elias and Hesh are clearly together. I believe Soverin's concern about being with Elias has already been addressed per Soverin's post that "his concerns were addressed."

2. The difference between "your actions are unsportsmanlike and bullying" and "you're a bully' are more semantics than I care to argue.

3. Please see the linked picture regarding how it is possible to have a cantina layout like that. Me having to get everything approved for layout by you simply means you control everything. Don't think I wouldn't notice.

As you have yet to point out an actual rule (because, no, me saying that you don't control everything is not godmodding), then either report the post with a rule violation or drop it.

I'm not arguing with you further. @Incubus

 

[Sreeya]

@Sreeya No. I was simply saying that the way their characters entered the thread seemed unsportsmanlike and unfair, and I wish they asked us before changing the layout of the cantina so drastically. Additionally, it was clarified to blstrgmr that the intention was to attack or kill, so PvP was in fact going to happen - but I'm really, really unhappy in the unhealthy way it is being initiated. I just don't want to be involved in something like that, it seems really toxic.

All right, well you're overreacting to high heavens to the point where, if I weren't going to before, I'd be more inspired than ever to attack you in a thread now. Stop being childish about this and see what people do first before losing your shit. Seriously? You made massive bible posts in here before literally ANYTHING of consequence has taken place in the thread. I could have a Jedi in there picking her nose and you'd burst into tears from the looks of it. Calm yourself.

Second of all, if you think literally just two people waltzing in is so toxic and immediately gets such a strong reaction from you, I'm sorry to say but you'll have a veeeery bad time here on this site. PVP has, and will always be, a part of this site. That's why going into opens has some risks but also greater rewards as a result. Following this conversation, I can tell you right now that the way you've approached things and made your points flagged you as the bigger problem and an unsportsmanlike player. You're much more likely to get your way if you calmly present your points without going ballistic and giving rants.

I'm not looking for a bible post from you in return to this post, so don't waste my time with one because I'll skip over it. If you have an actual problem, use the report function to report the post in question so an rp admin can look at it. As it stands, this conversation is hilariously pointless.

And by the way, you'll still need to find a way out of the thread. If you stop posting, your char's fate is up to others.

@Phoenix I also need you to cut the snark from your posts as well. The google image was unnecessarily snooty. Just because someone else is being difficult, doesn't mean you need to be just as prickly.

Aight, laters.

 

[Soverin]

@Phoenix

My concern will be addressed if you reflect in further roleplay in this thread that your characters perceive they are not affiliated. Just because they were addressed doesn't mean they don't have to be acknowledge and followed. That was not a "cool, we talked, going forward you don't have to take any of this into account."

 

[Incubus]

@Phoenix If this is the case, then again, the precedent is being set that anyone can enter any thread and change the environment and layout completely to their will without any consent from the other RPers. I would just like to remind any moderators reading this of that truth.

Asking the people already playing in a thread if you can do something that hasn't been established yet is polite. I've never been on an RP community where people did not ask before deciding something on their own, about a thread that had already been established by others, who put hours of effort into writing said thread. Again, your argument lies completely on rules, not ethics. Just because there isn't a rule explicitly about it, doesn't mean it's not worth arguing. Your dismissal of my point simply because it isn't technically a rule is inconsiderate. You are RPing with other people here. This is a website where people come together to write stories. I never said I wanted to control everything, but the three of us had already set the environment and you decided you would control everything. This is projection.