Feminism and Gender Equality

[Marf]

I'm an 18 year old male, but I'm gonna give this a shot and share my own personal opinion.

I'm not going to lie, your post upset me. I'm a little lost for words, but I'm going to try my best to formulate a response despite being pretty anxious about this.

I do not believe women are treated unfairly in american society, at all. I think women are on a completely even playing field with men, and I believe that these "feminist movements" are a bunch of BS.

You are 18, you are barely an adult. When I was that age I didn't regard myself as a feminist, because I hadn't noticed the need for it. I sincerely hope that as you mature, so will your thinking and that you will do the same.

Now I could care less how people are treated around the world in other countries. So I don't really know how women are treated in countries outside of the U.S. and quite frankly I don't give a damn.

You don't "give a damn"? Ok.

That was a pretty atrocious and insensitive comment considering the abhorrent (that's a kind word for it) acts against women in developing countries. It was dismissive and cruel, as though the issues outside of 'MURICA, issues we need to be outraged about, don't exist. Female genital mutilation (FGM), war rape and other forms of extreme sexual violence against women, young girls and toddlers, sexual slavery/trafficking, underage marriage, systematic torture and abuse etc. occurs every hour. Educate yourself before making such remarks. Pick up a book like Waris Dire's Desert Flower.

I do believe women are equal to men. That's pretty much as simple as it is.

That's where you are wholly and utterly wrong. It is not simple. Sexism, such as racism and other forms of discrimination in developed countries are not as overt as as they are in the third world. It is seeping and insidious, it is something you become accustomed to at a young age because of its' subtly. You don't realize how bad it is until you get older and become more socially astute. It is still socially acceptable in developing countries to sexually demean a woman or view her as an object, but it's so heavily ingrained in our societal norm that we don't acknowledge it as a problem.

Tell me, in your own personal lives do you see women sincerely discriminated against? Do you, yourselves see a woman picked on just because she is a woman?

I'm a victim of sexual and emotional harassment over 6 years during school, I have female friends who are survivors of sexual assault and domestic rape. I have frequently been cat-called, hit on, honked at in the street for the way I am dressed and approached with inappropriate or sexual intention. I no longer wear alternative fashion which used to be my hobby because it attracted too much unwanted attention. My sister is butch/androgynous and was made to wear dresses and bullied because of her appearance, because she didn't match our school's set idea of of what a girl should look like. She developed anorexia and still lives with severe body image and self-esteem issues. It's more nuanced and complex than "You can't do that because you're a woman", it's about a lack of human dignity and basic respect, which is even more damaging.

Hell I think you could argue men are the ones that get the short end of the stick socially. How many women opt to open a door for a man? Or pay for a meal? Which granted that's the way it should be, momma needs to teach every man how to be a gentleman.

Women typically don't do things such as opening doors for men, because according to the social status quo, they are weaker, dependent and rely on somebody else to do things for them. More often than not, a man opening a door for a woman he doesn't know is not trying to be a gentleman, he is using it as an excuse to gain her affection. I would feel grossly uncomfortable if a strange man opened a door for me or pulled out my chair. My last male friend frequently approached me with affectionate and gentlemanly gestures, stroked my hair/cheeks etc, before eventually asking to sleep with me and see me naked. My sister, who prefers to be treated as a boy, always feels really embarrassed every time a waiter pulls out her chair and places her napkin when we go out.

However there are things that a woman should not be able to do. Such as combat military; ya I said that.

Why? Not all women are 5'2" and 100 lbs. Men and women come in all different shapes and sizes and many are just as physically capable as each other. Society has a set, falsified perception of what genders are supposed look like aswell as their physical capabilities. There are many 6+ foot women who are just as strong and physically able as their male peers, and they should not be denied the opportunity to fill sporting, physical or combat roles if they are fully able to.

I didn't respond to all of your post. I'm hoping some of the more politically astute members tackle your other points.

 

[Noirceur]

Okay. *sigh*. I'm gonna break my usual "dont discuss with other people about their personal opinions" rule, beacuse I cant bring myself to not answer to this. Also, please excuse any grammar mistakes as Im posting from a phone, and please dont take my tone or bluntness as an attack towards you. I just speak like that, and like to use "shit" and its derivatives a lot in my sentences. So, here it goes:

I'm an 18 year old male, but I'm gonna give this a shot and share my own personal opinion.

I get it. Its your personal opinion, and youre entitled to have it regardless of your age. I just wanna say that while I respect it, I dont agree with it.

I do not believe women are treated unfairly in american society, at all. I think women are on a completely even playing field with men, and I believe that these "feminist movements" are a bunch of BS. Now I could care less how people are treated around the world in other countries. So I don't really know how women are treated in countries outside of the U.S. and quite frankly I don't give a damn.

Women ARE treated unfairly, not only in America. In fact, women are treated like shit in most countries. Sure, in theory women have the same rights and opportunities as men. In practice? Not really. Did you know that in the entire world, women working full-time for an employer only reach 50% of total women population in two countries? (Sweden and Iceland) Thats right. Two shitting countries. If you think thats fair and equal, you should probably think again. Also, it worries and saddens me that you have such a close-minded, narrow, almost non-existent concern for what goes on outside your country. Are you saying you "could care less" about christians and women being murdered in the middle east? And about hundreds who are executed by drug cartels in Mexico and other central/south american countries? And about the hundreds dead from terrorist attacks in the EU and Asia? I could go on and on.

So just sticking to American society (the society I know and see every day) I do believe women are equal to men. That's pretty much as simple as it is. These whole feminist movements are just a bunch of people bitching about something. Tell me, in your own personal lives do you see women sincerely discriminated against? Do you, yourselves see a woman picked on just because she is a woman? No.

The simple term of "bitching" is sexist, but Ill roll with it. Do you really think their our "bitching" is completely irrational and unjustified? How many times do you hear a male was raped or forced by his boss to sleep with them to keep their job? Because thats the kind of shit many women have to deal with. As for your questions, I have seen women being sincerely discriminated against not only in my country, but in many others, yours included. For example, I am the assistant director of a section in my workplace. The director is a woman. I once traveled with her to a convention, and many times I was referred to as the boss and her as my secretary. When we cleared that up, I came SO close to murdering a sexist piece of shit who actually asked her how many dudes did she fuck to get where she was. So yeah, I do have first-hand experience with that.

Let's start from the bottom. If you are born a girl, you would get the same thing a boy gets. You'd both get the same start. A man and a woman are both provided a free public education. In highschool (in Missouri) high-schools are required to have the same amount of female sports teams as they have male sports teams. So because my school has a football team we must have a volleyball team. And because my school has a baseball team we must have a softball team. And because my school has a male soccer team, male basketball team, male tennis team we must have female teams as well.

Again, it worries me that you use the word "must" as if it were a bad thing that female sports team need to be included. That same "oh, women just need their sports, dont they?" attitude is what discourages many girls from trying out sports, aside from the usual shit they get in the form of stereotypes and sexist comments. AKA "sports are for dudes, go do zumba or some shit".

Basically is what I'm getting at and to simplify what I'm saying, women have the same opportunity as men in this life (American life that is I don't really care about any other countries.)

And that defeats the whole purpose of the thread. The thread is about International Women's Day. INTERNATIONAL. As in, not only in 'murica. And no, according to the statistics, they dont.

Are women equal in the political field? Yes they are. Women get to vote same as men. One of my votes would be equal to one woman's vote. Women get to run for any political office they so choose, same as a man. Real life example: Hillary Clinton.

Again, you're going down the same mistake. Yes, according to law, women have the right and opportunity to run for the same political offices as men. It all sounds good in paper, but how many female gobernors/senators/judges/etc. are there vs males?

Are women equal in the economic field? I do not know. But I do know this, I have five sisters, 3 of which work at the same job as me. We all work for Hy-Vee and we all get paid the same exact wage.

Its good for you to admit that you dont know. Allow me to enlighten you. According to studies, fresh out of college men and women working in similar fields earn approximately the same, even if men, on average, earn a little more. However, as they grow both physically and proffesionally, their pay usually advances, and over time the gap between them grows. Women's pay rise usually halts at around age 39, by which point they earn approximately $60,000. For men, however, their pay rise halts in average at age 48, and they tipically make about $95,000 by then. That is $35,000 more than women. Im sorry, but that shit is not equal in the slightest.

Are woman equal personally and socially???? I don't really know what the "personal" equality means but socially I think women are equal. Hell I think you could argue men are the ones that get the short end of the stick socially. How many women opt to open a door for a man? Or pay for a meal? Which granted that's the way it should be, momma needs to teach every man how to be a gentleman. But, you know, the argument is there.

@Marf answered this point perfectly, and pretty much like I would have, so make sure to read her answer to know my opinion on this point.

However there are things that a woman should not be able to do. Such as combat military; ya I said that.

If a woman wants to and can take on a military role, she should. And no one should say shit about it. Like someone else in the thread, Im also gonna quote the phrase Karl Marx popularised because I feel it sums up this point perfectly: "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need".

So yeah, thats about it. Again, im sorry if you were offended. If you were, I will apologize, but my point stands. Cheers.

 

[Kiro]

I was gonna chime in here with my thoughts, but Marf and Noir have pretty much covered it. What I'd add to that, is that it's even worse if you also happen to have another "tag" in addition to being a woman. I'll use myself as an example, because fuck it, I don't have anything to hide.

I'm a woman, and I'm gay. Now, not only do I have to deal with what Noir and Marf pointed out so eloquently above, but I also have to deal with gaybashing from both sides of the gender divide. Growing up in a small town, where I was the only gay girl (at least the only openly gay girl), I was ridiculed. I was bullied. Guys didn't like me because I was small and a girl that'd never put out, and while I'm pretty butch in my choice of clothes and how I act, I don't have that stereotypical "butch lesbian" look. Girls didn't like me because I was gay. I always dreaded having gym class more than anything, because it meant being unsupervised in a small room with a bunch of girls that hated me and would be even more uncomfortable around me than normal, because... y'know.

(Don't worry, not gonna turn this into a gay thing)

Anyway, that label is still with me. I'm not just a woman, and have to face the same challenges most women face, but I'm a gay woman. That means I'm getting flame from other women as well (at least those that are homophobes/hyper-religious). Not saying everyone's a gaybasher or anything like that, but... yeah, trust me. Marf and Noir meet people, and they go "Oh hey, that's a nice lady." With someone like me, it's "Oh. She's a gay woman." I don't tell people I'm gay, but I don't hide it either.

In fact, after I moved away from my hometown to attend Uni for two years, I deliberately kept my hair super short, dressed in pretty baggy clothes, avoided any kind of makeup like the plague, started wearing more masculine glasses, and honestly just tried to slip by as a guy. It helps that my RL name is unisex. Life was so much easier as a guy.

 

[Pureblood-Sin]

You can change a law, but that won't change attitudes; that takes something deeper. Some time ago, my sister was almost sexually assaulted by a man she knew, same thing almost happened to my mother; that's the thing that the law cannot medicate. With all the sexist crap I've seen on the internet, that is certainly something that the law does not stop; the internet provides a mask for the most repulsive aspects that allow people to say what they will with little fear of reprisal.

As for the military; ask the Norse about their Shieldmaidens, the Celts, the Scythians, the Pre-Islamic Persians, the Mongols etc. In a time when warfare was even more physical than it is now, these societies had women take up arms to defend their people. Such martial women were marks of pride for their societies, among the other things that their societies gave them...and to think we consider ourselves better than the ancients when we have so much to learn from their example.

 

[Livgardist]

In my country, women can serve in every aspect of the military, including special operations forces. I have had the pleasure of serving with several women in the Swedish Army, as part of an escort platoon in a logistical regiment, and in the Royal Guards. I've also served under female officers in both. I had a bad experience with one female soldier during my mandatory military service in the Swedish Navy. Two male members of our platoon were involved in relationships with her during the course of our military service, causing conflict. It was extremely unprofessional by all parts, to say the least.

But, the women I served with in the Army were all consummate profesionals, excellent soldiers, and trustworthy comrades, and I would sooner trust them to watch my back than many of the male soldiers I met during my military career. Similarly, the female officers I served under were extremely professional and competent. I remember a female ex-marine who instructed us in first aid during bootcamp. She was of normal build, no Captain Phasma so to speak, but had no trouble tossing me over her shoulders in fireman's grip and carry me for quite some distance while carrying full combat gear. Badass was the best way to describe her.

I guess what I'm saying is, every reason you can come up with for women not to serve in combat role is outweighed by the fact that they make just as good soldiers as men - if, as is the case with men as well, they have the right mindset and motivation for being in the military. In the end, in the military, you are brothers and sisters, soldiers if you will, not men and women. My 2 cents.

 

[Brandon Rhea]

I had a bad experience with one female soldier during my mandatory military service in the Swedish Navy. The Navy girl slept with at least two members of our platoon during the course of our military service, causing conflict. It was extremely unprofessional to say the least.

I think you had a well intentioned post, and I know what point you're aiming for with the overall intention of your post and that point is a good one, but I'm guessing the two people she slept with were men, right? So let me ask - why is this point phrased as "The Navy girl slept with at least two members of our platoon." This post is written, intentionally or not, as casting the blame on the woman, rather than also the two men who I'm assuming were willing participants.

Again, I think you had a well intentioned post so I'm not trying to go after you and it's entirely possible you just didn't make your point as clear as you wanted to, but this is an example of subtle but insidious sexism that you often see. Three people are involved in this situation. Two men slept with this woman. But the story is "this woman slept with two members of the platoon and it caused problems." Whereas in reality it's "soldier slept with soldier and both caused problems."

We should choose our words and frame our attitudes carefully. A seemingly innocuous point can contribute to the overall problem without us realizing. That's why it's so hard to convince some people that sexism is a problem, because it's not overt "I hate women" sexism in most cases. It's social, it's structural, it's cultural.

 

[Noirceur]

I was gonna chime in here with my thoughts, but Marf and Noir have pretty much covered it. What I'd add to that, is that it's even worse if you also happen to have another "tag" in addition to being a woman. I'll use myself as an example, because **** it, I don't have anything to hide.

I'm a woman, and I'm gay. Now, not only do I have to deal with what Noir and Marf pointed out so eloquently above, but I also have to deal with gaybashing from both sides of the gender divide. Growing up in a small town, where I was the only gay girl (at least the only openly gay girl), I was ridiculed. I was bullied. Guys didn't like me because I was small and a girl that'd never put out, and while I'm pretty butch in my choice of clothes and how I act, I don't have that stereotypical "butch lesbian" look. Girls didn't like me because I was gay. I always dreaded having gym class more than anything, because it meant being unsupervised in a small room with a bunch of girls that hated me and would be even more uncomfortable around me than normal, because... y'know.

(Don't worry, not gonna turn this into a gay thing)

Anyway, that label is still with me. I'm not just a woman, and have to face the same challenges most women face, but I'm a gay woman. That means I'm getting flame from other women as well (at least those that are homophobes/hyper-religious). Not saying everyone's a gaybasher or anything like that, but... yeah, trust me. Marf and Noir meet people, and they go "Oh hey, that's a nice lady." With someone like me, it's "Oh. She's a gay woman." I don't tell people I'm gay, but I don't hide it either.

In fact, after I moved away from my hometown to attend Uni for two years, I deliberately kept my hair super short, dressed in pretty baggy clothes, avoided any kind of makeup like the plague, started wearing more masculine glasses, and honestly just tried to slip by as a guy. It helps that my RL name is unisex. Life was so much easier as a guy.

While I can't hope to understand everything you've been through nor could I ever do so, I can sympathize with you because, as I said in the previous page, I have a gay sister and so I know from personal experience what you have to deal with. My mother, for example, was utterly terrified when she learned about my sister, and decided to kick her out of the house. I was confused for a minute, but I saw the picture pretty clealry: My sister liked women. So what the shit? I like women too for f*ck's sake. Gender shouldn't have any effect on what you like. Women can like women just as guys can like guys in my book. So I decided to stand by my sister and told my mother she should also start putting one less dish on the table, because I was going with my sis. We actually spent some nights in a motel until she took us back in. She didn't speak to my sister in months, but eventually she came to accept her after I had some talks with her. Most of the fights I got into during my college years were for defending my sister. So yeah, I know, to some degree, the hardships LGBT+'s have to deal with, so my heart goes out to you.

 

[Livgardist]

I think you had a well intentioned post, and I know what point you're aiming for with the overall intention of your post and that point is a good one, but I'm guessing the two people she slept with were men, right? So let me ask - why is this point phrased as "The Navy girl slept with at least two members of our platoon." This post is written, intentionally or not, as casting the blame on the woman, rather than also the two men who I'm assuming were willing participants.

Again, I think you had a well intentioned post so I'm not trying to go after you and it's entirely possible you just didn't make your point as clear as you wanted to, but this is an example of subtle but insidious sexism that you often see. Three people are involved in this situation. Two men slept with this woman. But the story is "this woman slept with two members of the platoon and it caused problems." Whereas in reality it's "soldier slept with soldier and both caused problems."

We should choose our words and frame our attitudes carefully. A seemingly innocuous point can contribute to the overall problem without us realizing. That's why it's so hard to convince some people that sexism is a problem, because it's not overt "I hate women" sexism in most cases. It's social, it's structural, it's cultural.

You are very right, and I hit myself hard now when I read it again and realize how it sounds.

 

[Brandon Rhea]

It's refreshing to be able to make these points without the response being "NUH UH!"

 

[Noirceur]

It's refreshing to be able to make these points without the response being "NUH UH!"

Ain't that the truth!

 

[Kiro]

It's refreshing to be able to make these points without the response being "NUH UH!"

NUH-UH!!

Sorry. The temptation was too great.

 

[BLADE]

Alright, I'll bite. What do people here think are the root causes of sexism?

 

[Officiant]

Alright, I'll bite. What do people here think are the root causes of sexism?

One can assume that it's simply so primordial that there is no intellectual history of the concept like there is with racism or modern homophobia. But since gender roles are built around human biology and the ancient division of labor I would assume sexism comes from a certain ancient exaltation of men. "Patriarchy" has either existed since the first human communities on the African continent or developed in parallel in every human society due to some natural or biological phenomena. I know that determinism and essentialism is somewhat out of fashion with modern feminists but there's very little alternative.

 

[BLADE]

An interesting theory if one too immanent and obsequious to irrationalism and mysticism. Consider matriarchal societies. How and why do they emerge in your schemata?

I know that determinism and essentialism is somewhat out of fashion with modern feminists but there's very little alternative.

division of labor

I would explore this avenue.

 

[Miz]

Alright, I'll bite. What do people here think are the root causes of sexism?

Ignorance probably.

 

[Pureblood-Sin]

Alright, I'll bite. What do people here think are the root causes of sexism?

It would ultimately vary for individual cultures. For Europe, I can say that it all probably first begin with the expansion of the Roman Empire, which as everyone knows, was a very patriarchal culture. The coming of Christianity turned that patriarchy up to 11 and eventually spread throughout the lands, replacing their more Gender-Equal customs. In the Middle East, my guess is due to the spread of the heavily patriarchal culture of the Arabs and, in general, the oft-patriarchal nature of Semitic cultures. In China, and possibly amongst the Chinese diaspora, it can generally be applied to the prominence of Confucian ideology which traditionally does not hold women in particularly high value. Can't comment on the cultures of Sub-Saharan Africa, other than the appearance of patriarchal cultures in the region.

 

[BLADE]

Ignorance probably.

Aristotelian laws of logic tend to be temulent with their own static hysteresis but with respect A=A is not much of an explanation, even when substitution is involved. You've simply transposed one phenomenon for another.

It would ultimately vary for individual cultures. For Europe, I can say that it all probably first begin with the expansion of the Roman Empire, which as everyone knows, was a very patriarchal culture. The coming of Christianity turned that patriarchy up to 11 and eventually spread throughout the lands, replacing their more Gender-Equal customs. In the Middle East, my guess is due to the spread of the heavily patriarchal culture of the Arabs and, in general, the oft-patriarchal nature of Semitic cultures. In China, and possibly amongst the Chinese diaspora, it can generally be applied to the prominence of Confucian ideology which traditionally does not hold women in particularly high value. Can't comment on the cultures of Sub-Saharan Africa, other than the appearance of patriarchal cultures in the region.

All well and good, but you're suffering from the same issue as above. What caused these cultures to be patriarchal or to displace (in a bit of a Whiggish telling, but I am not here to correct apocryphal history) less sexist cultures?

In essence, you've recounted the how, but you haven't really answered the why.

 

[Pureblood-Sin]

I can certainly speak for the Romans and their territories that would become the Romance-speaking countries we know today. The countries that would become Spain and France became so heavily Romanised, that the inhabitants of those parts forgot the previously dominant cultures. In the Eastern parts of the Empire, where Koine Greek was spoken, some of the peoples that were under the reign of Diadochoi became more patriarchal as a result of the lengthy exposure to Hellenic culture. In both cases, its the subjugated peoples, who were often divided into several factions, who began to emulate their conquerors; either seeing in them the path to success of simply being a superior culture worthy of emulation...even if they do ultimately cast aside their own cultural traits.

 

[BLADE]

I can certainly speak for the Romans and their territories that would become the Romance-speaking countries we know today. The countries that would become Spain and France became so heavily Romanised, that the inhabitants of those parts forgot the previously dominant cultures. In the Eastern parts of the Empire, where Koine Greek was spoken, some of the peoples that were under the reign of Diadochoi became more patriarchal as a result of the lengthy exposure to Hellenic culture. In both cases, its the subjugated peoples, who were often divided into several factions, who began to emulate their conquerors; either seeing in them the path to success of simply being a superior culture worthy of emulation...even if they do ultimately cast aside their own cultural traits.

There's a kernel of something there (reread your speculation pace the vanquished), but you're still not explaining much of anything. You are describing the spread, trials and tribulations of a sexist entity. But why was this entity sexist in the first place?

 

[Pureblood-Sin]

Well, I can only offer speculation at this point. To look at the origins of the Roman Patriarchy in it most well-known state, you must examine it greatest influence; Greece. Taking a look at the landscape of Greece, which is heavily mountainous and lacking in arable land; something it shares with the area the Romans came to emerge in. Any land that can be farmed was often fought over between the precursors of the Poleis (the Greek City states); of course, stemming from early humans, it was the men who often fought in these conflicts whilst the women stayed at home for the oldest of reasons. Of course, it would be the men that also manned the fishing boats, something of great importance to the nascent city-states. As things began to settle down, the gender roles created by in the years leading up to the Classical Period were pretty much set in stone; though the different city-states generally had their own practices when it came to women.

Now we go back to the Romans, combined with the influence of Greek culture in Italy at the time, they were already something of a warlike culture at the time and as such, men were already dominant at the time. With conquest and assimilation of the other Italia tribes, we find ourselves with the Roman Republic and the Roman perception that men were superior, by virtue of being stronger and more overtly valuable in their martial culture, then women. As for why women did not participate in war, my guess was the fact they were needed to produce more potential warriors, and later on, this ethos would then grow into the wider perceptions of maintaining the Legions and the Noble bloodlines of Rome's oldest families. As the Republic grew and absorbed the territories of the Carthaginians after the Second Punic War, so too did the notions that your typical Roman male must be dominant at all times to maintain what was ultimately to become an Empire; whether it was as a master of the household or a Legate of a Legion, dominance and control over all assets became crucial.

Of course, this is merely speculation; could just be me going on. :)