Fire in their Hearts OOC

[Darasuum]

edited

 

[Vosrik]

Hmm, so here are my thoughts. I'm all for getting into combat sooner rather than later, but throwing an adhesive grenade first before confirming Devrim and Pho are even remotely hostile is really quite an odd thing to do. Especially taking into account that Hozan heard what Pho said, that they had an appointment to meet with the commander. While they arguably do look somewhat suspicious, imagine Hozan throwing down an adhesive grenade and Pho was in fact a legitimate official or ambassador. That would be really quite damaging to the supposed meeting that's scheduled. I guess if you're really intent on sticking (no pun intended) with that action then we'll work with it, but Cazar and I would prefer Hozan confirm they're hostiles first before attacking for no apparent reason, as that seems borderline metagamey tbh. Thoughts?

 

[Darasuum]

Hmm, so here are my thoughts. I'm all for getting into combat sooner rather than later, but throwing an adhesive grenade first before confirming Devrim and Pho are even remotely hostile is really quite an odd thing to do. Especially taking into account that Hozan heard what Pho said, that they had an appointment to meet with the commander. While they arguably do look somewhat suspicious, imagine Hozan throwing down an adhesive grenade and Pho was in fact a legitimate official or ambassador. That would be really quite damaging to the supposed meeting that's scheduled. I guess if you're really intent on sticking (no pun intended) with that action then we'll work with it, but Cazar and I would prefer Hozan confirm they're hostiles first before attacking for no apparent reason, as that seems borderline metagamey tbh. Thoughts?

I’m fine either way. I was using the fact that Pho says something and Hozan hears the officer repeated it back to him almost perfectly as a sign since he would know what a mind trick was. I can edit it though if you want.

 

[Cazar]

@Darasuum @Brick I guess my confusion mostly comes for where you two think I am. Brick's post says I made it to the turbolift while Dara says I am attacked before I get inside. Teammate contradiction here...

 

[Vosrik]

As for the grenade itself, Cazar and I are fine with it and we’ll roll with it. I guess we should just confirm timing — Hozan is throwing it just after they begin walking to the command building, correct?

 

[Darasuum]

@Darasuum @Brick I guess my confusion mostly comes for where you two think I am. Brick's post says I made it to the turbolift while Dara says I am attacked before I get inside. Teammate contradiction here...

As for the grenade itself, Cazar and I are fine with it and we’ll roll with it. I guess we should just confirm timing — Hozan is throwing it just after they begin walking to the command building, correct?

Yeah I did not communicate to @Brick what I was planning to do so I was going to treat it like an interruption sort of deal and would cancel out anything that came after. I feel like I’m throwing a wrench in it all though so I can edit it again. Out buying a car atm.

 

[Darasuum]

no response from @Brick so if he doesn't get back to me I think we should just count it as an interruption like it would be if I canceled out an enemy's actions.

 

[Brick]

Ok sorryyy what do I do now?

 

[Darasuum]

Ok, so @Brick has agreed to keep his post open to remove confusion and for my attack to still go through. Is that okay with you guys @Vosrik @Cazar

 

[Vosrik]

Ok, so @Brick has agreed to keep his post open to remove confusion and for my attack to still go through. Is that okay with you guys @Vosrik @Cazar

Yep, I think we’ll post as it is.

 

[Vosrik]

I apologize for cutting it close with my post, but I didn’t want to time out and I’ve been attempting unsuccessfully to reach @Cazar all day to discuss our actions.

Our posts, as you can see, are super contradictory. This is because I did some thorough research and there is nothing to suggest that the use of Force Sense to predetermine attacks is anything but metagaming. Not only that, but using the force to instantly toss the grenade back toward Hozan at blinding speeds without taking any repercussions...it basically doesn’t line up with the whole “shift in the meta” guidelines. Essentially, I’m sure Cazar will have to do some edits before you guys post, but at least I got a post in before taking an autohit.

Also, as you can see I’ve straight up ignored the NPCs. There’s no point in including them in the thread any longer.

 

[Cazar]

I think more is being read into what I'm doing than really is there... all Pho is doing is tossing his already built up energy from previous posts in the direction where danger has been sensed since post 1. It isn't a complicated or overpowered maneuver. He literally pivots, pushes, and... that's it. There is no sense of exactly what is coming, where it is, where the enemy is, etc. He turns and pushes at the danger he senses to create space. That sends the grenade back hard because it's a tiny round object compared to a built up push. It's no less "metagaming" than choosing to throw an adhesive grenade in the first place or seeing us on cameras that suddenly exist.

 

[Vosrik]

I think more is being read into what I'm doing than really is there... all Pho is doing is tossing his already built up energy from previous posts in the direction where danger has been sensed since post 1. It isn't a complicated or overpowered maneuver. He literally pivots, pushes, and... that's it. There is no sense of exactly what is coming, where it is, where the enemy is, etc. He turns and pushes at the danger he senses to create space. That sends the grenade back hard because it's a tiny round object compared to a built up push. It's no less "metagaming" than choosing to throw an adhesive grenade in the first place or seeing us on cameras that suddenly exist.

That’s the problem though — using the Force to sense exactly when danger is coming to avoid a sneak attack is not allowed. Using the Force to release a small wave of evergy isn’t hard on its own, no. But being able to suddenly discover an unknown attack and perfectly deflect it right back at the sender...that’s just not something that we should be able to do.

Now, if Hozan walks right up and cuts us down instantly for no reason, I’ll be upset and would say something. But as you saw from my post, we can (and in my opinion, should) take the hit and work with it. It’s not the end of the fight if we do.

 

[Darasuum]

I think more is being read into what I'm doing than really is there... all Pho is doing is tossing his already built up energy from previous posts in the direction where danger has been sensed since post 1. It isn't a complicated or overpowered maneuver. He literally pivots, pushes, and... that's it. There is no sense of exactly what is coming, where it is, where the enemy is, etc. He turns and pushes at the danger he senses to create space. That sends the grenade back hard because it's a tiny round object compared to a built up push. It's no less "metagaming" than choosing to throw an adhesive grenade in the first place or seeing us on cameras that suddenly exist.

That’s the problem though — using the Force to sense exactly when danger is coming to avoid a sneak attack is not allowed. Using the Force to release a small wave of evergy isn’t hard on its own, no. But being able to suddenly discover an unknown attack and perfectly deflect it right back at the sender...that’s just not something that we should be able to do.

Now, if Hozan walks right up and cuts us down instantly for no reason, I’ll be upset and would say something. But as you saw from my post, we can (and in my opinion, should) take the hit and work with it. It’s not the end of the fight if we do.

I can possibly recognize @Cazar 's actions under one condition. Every future event where the slightest hint of danger comes Pho reacts to it in the same extreme manner. (that means you will likely end up attacking friendlies)
Otherwise I see it as being meta. If that is his character's way of dealing with it that's fine but that essentially makes him paranoid to the point of reacting violently to any and every potential threat in an extreme.

Also, one other thing is that Pho is both focused on building up his energy to use and also keeping his senses attuned for danger. I'm still new to the force usage in pvp so i'm not sure if that qualifies as a cause for questioning.

 

[Cazar]

I think you're both putting way too much thought into this, and it's slightly irking to have my own teammate say it so maybe I'm the a-hole here. So we are supposed to essentially accept being autohit by a grenade because he was "sneaky". Using multiple force powers isn't allowed but since when is either building up force or being "aware" a force power? Seems more like you expect me to be hit by this grenade no matter what as the opener which feels like a "instant hit/autohit" style. If he had thrown a frag grenade would you just fall over dead because he got to be sneaky? I'd prefer this be a fight and not a nit picking argument for days so if it really comes down to y'all thinking I should be autohit by the first combat move of the thread, I will take it and watch it screw us over.

 

[Darasuum]

I think you're both putting way too much thought into this, and it's slightly irking to have my own teammate say it so maybe I'm the a-hole here. So we are supposed to essentially accept being autohit by a grenade because he was "sneaky". Using multiple force powers isn't allowed but since when is either building up force or being "aware" a force power? Seems more like you expect me to be hit by this grenade no matter what as the opener which feels like a "instant hit/autohit" style. If he had thrown a frag grenade would you just fall over dead because he got to be sneaky? I'd prefer this be a fight and not a nit picking argument for days so if it really comes down to y'all thinking I should be autohit by the first combat move of the thread, I will take it and watch it screw us over.

I did a whole post of just moving into position without any active hostility towards anybody. Two people facing the same direction and neither watching the other’s 6 is a pretty blatant oversight in my opinion and not something that would be taken for granted as an opening. Turning your back on an enemy and then complaining you can’t get the chance to defend against it because you made the mistake of ignoring their approach or not covering your own weaknesses should not be the attacker’s fault.

I stated I wasn’t sure about the build up combined with the awareness. Just putting it out there for someone more experienced and knowledgeable to offer insight.

 

[Cazar]

Build up of the force and awareness is what like every single force sensitive pvp post is on this site pre-combat. Its not exerting a force power or anything. So I think we can move past that.

So where we are stuck is me being accused of meta gaming for defending. Like I said if it really just is going to be this huge thing where even my teammate is against me maybe I’ll just drop it. But that said it’s pretty dumb to me and you saying it’s our mistake for ignoring you is pretty insulting tbh. It would be meta of us to see you and sense your exact spot but we knew you were there somewhere. We both had posted saying we felt an enemy nearby. So when that danger turns to an attack it’s laughable IMO to call me metagaming for reacting to it. It’s not nearly the same as hitting friendlies and saying I have to react like that in the future seemed unnecessary as well. Literally was a pivot and push. If that’s too much and we have to take some hit and get nit picky then we can play that way. I’d rather have fun though and actually go with the new rules which apparently I’m breaking by not wanting to get stuck by a grenade in round one lmao.

 

[Vosrik]

Cazar, please understand that I'm not trying to gang up against you — I am simply attempting to understand and work with the PvP rules as best as I can. Especially since I have a PvP warning for not properly following the shift in the meta guidelines in a very recent PvP. With that in mind, Darasuum does have a point. Neither of us in our posts beforehand made sure to watch our backs, and we got caught out because of that. The simple fact is that the Force can't be used to pinpoint where enemies are specifically, never mind alert us when an unseen attack is coming nor what direction it's coming from. Granted, I haven't asked a PvP admin, but I'm quite certain that a pivot and a push, when the only excuse for such an action is with precognition, is pretty blatant metagaming (which is why it hasn't been allowed before). And again, getting stuck by a sticky grenade isn't the end of the fight. If you and I work with breaking it down or defending ourselves together against Hozan (as Brick's guy is still inside a building somewhere), this whole thing wouldn't end up being an issue in the first place.

Another thing I think is worth mentioning is that building up energy in the Force doesn't really make our characters stronger or anything, as it's more flavour text afaik than anything else. Nobody's going to argue someone's inability to use the Force because they weren't building up power beforehand. Secondly, neither Devrim nor Pho were actively attempting to find the source of the Dark Side presence, and in fact Pho was busy dealing with the NPCs. (A side note, the fact we're being bogged down by NPCs in a PvP is really not good, but it's too late to change that now so it's a non-issue at this point). In retrospect, actively searching for Hozan's position is something I could have had Devrim do last turn to prevent the current situation. Here's what the rules say:

7. Any attack must be able to be countered unless the situation prevents it OR you have approached the end of a duel. You cannot simply walk into a thread and kill someone instantly. Everyone should be given the chance to defend themselves. Whether or not they are able to think of a defense is up to their own imagination. "Autohitting" or posting an attack and having it strike or damage your opponent in the same post is strictly prohibited.

I think the important thing to note here is that it specifically says unless the situation prevents it. Currently, with both our backs turned and the inability to use the Force at a moment's notice to discern an incoming attack, we are therefore susceptible to the grenade and it's fair that we take the hit.

Again, I'm trying to maintain fairness and follow the new shift in the meta guidelines. Perfectly defending against the grenade and sending it back immediatly toward Hozan while our Jedi were previously preoccupied just doesn't seem like something that we should be able to do.

 

[Cazar]

I'll just edit in taking a hit even though I EXTREMELY disagree with how this has been played out. In an effort to continue the thread, I'll let the various opposition rule breaks go yet again. Abusing NPCs as a distraction so we get hit by a grenade is so wrong, and as Vosrik revealed he is over compensating and hurting us too. Double whammy for me I guess. Should have reported the NPC use instead of rolling and trying to have fun here.

 

[Vosrik]

At Cazar's request, I've edited my post and both of us are avoiding the adhesive.