Memory rub + Force corrupt class

[Bubák]

Yet another of Avreet's classes, in this one you'll most likely learn Memory rub and Force corrupt. Both of those powers manipulate mind in some way, so I think it would be OK to teach both of them in the same class. Who's interested?

 

[Kiro]

Bubak, while it's great that you're taking such an interest in teaching Acolytes new techniques, Memory Rub and Force Corrupt are both highly advanced and complicated techniques, which requires extreme levels of concentration and skill. They'd be very difficult for a mere Crusader to use at all, nevermind being profficient enough in the art to actively teach a class on the subject.

Now, provided there is a great deal of interest in this, I will be willing to host this class for Crusaders and Masters with Darth Umbra, and have Avreet assist her. How does that sound instead?

 

[Bubák]

Sounds good, but I doubt a Darth would need any sort of assistance. And even if, why would she choose a Crusader as her assistant if those Force powers are too difficult for him to use?

 

[Kiro]

Sounds good, but I doubt a Darth would need any sort of assistance. And even if, why would she choose a Crusader as her assistant if those Force powers are too difficult for him to use?

Exactly to prove that point. How difficult those powers are to use. And I didn't state they're too difficult. Just very difficult for a Crusader to pull off correctly.

 

[Bad Karma]

Couldn't Force Lightning fall under the same category, as well as Force Body? Just curious, because both are listed as such on wookieepedia and yet every Sith can use Force Lightning from an Acolyte level.

Just wondering, because this is the first and only SW forum I've seen allow their use at such an inexperienced level.

 

[Kiro]

Couldn't Force Lightning fall under the same category, as well as Force Body? Just curious, because both are listed as such on wookieepedia and yet every Sith can use Force Lightning from an Acolyte level.

Just wondering, because this is the first and only SW forum I've seen allow their use at such an inexperienced level.

Yes. But we tend to give them some leeway... but yes, they are rather advanced. Especially considering Avreet's other advanced powers, such as Force Drain and Force Weapon... they are all rather high-end, advanced, and complicated, stamina-exhausting, powers.

 

[Bad Karma]

Okay, thanks for the clarification. So essentially, lessers are capable of learning said abilities... though we are expected to roleplay their usage realistically... which I guess is pretty obvious. Just was unsure of how soon they could legally be obtained.

 

[Kiro]

Okay, thanks for the clarification. So essentially, lessers are capable of learning said abilities... though we are expected to roleplay their usage realistically... which I guess is pretty obvious. Just was unsure of how soon they could legally be obtained.

Yeah. In essence, your biggest guiding star is logic and (the badly named) common sense. Does it make sense for your Character, a Crusader, especially if recently promoted, has abilities akin to those of a Sith Lord or a high-ranking Sith Master?

 

[Bad Karma]

No it doesn't and that is why I asked, because as far as I could tell the only restrictions were those based around the banned abilities. So thanks again for clearing that up for me.

 

[Bubák]

He had learned it all in classes, so I don't see how is his knowledge of those powers a problem.

Edit: Actually, Force corrupt is not as advanced as you think, you might be confusing it with Dominate mind or Mind control

 

[Black Noise]

He had learned it all in classes, so I don't see how is his knowledge of those powers a problem.

Edit: Actually, Force corrupt is not as advanced as you think, you might be confusing it with Dominate mind or Mind control

How many classes has he learned this in? How often has he utilized these abilities? How many threads has he trained them in?

Dominate Mind is also an exceedingly advanced power, and it is ONLY capable of being used successfully on an enemy after multiple rounds of concentration and gathering of the Force in an IC duel.

Simply put, Bubak, unless Avreet has trained these, or any, abilities more than once outside of the class he has learned them in AND utilized them more than once in outside occasions not designated for training, he is not capable of teaching the abilities to acolytes. Even an acolyte cannot train other acolytes in basic force abilities without having trained and utilized those abilities in combat first.

 

[Xan]

Not that I'm not a fan of where this thread could be leading (mind-based abilities are awesome), but even if it could be taught by a Crusader, I'm not sure that those kinds of abilities could be learned by Acolytes. Might I recommend teaching some more basic mental abilities, Avreet? A simple mind trick, or the basic applications of Force Fear?

 

[Bubák]

How many classes has he learned this in? How often has he utilized these abilities? How many threads has he trained them in?

Dominate Mind is also an exceedingly advanced power, and it is ONLY capable of being used successfully on an enemy after multiple rounds of concentration and gathering of the Force in an IC duel.

Simply put, Bubak, unless Avreet has trained these, or any, abilities more than once outside of the class he has learned them in AND utilized them more than once in outside occasions not designated for training, he is not capable of teaching the abilities to acolytes. Even an acolyte cannot train other acolytes in basic force abilities without having trained and utilized those abilities in combat first.

Well, I did not know that. When my math teacher explains something new, I may not be able to put it to use, but I know the theory, which I can explain to my classmates who did not understand the teacher's explanation. I thought this was similar, now I know it's not. Peace.

Not that I'm not a fan of where this thread could be leading (mind-based abilities are awesome), but even if it could be taught by a Crusader, I'm not sure that those kinds of abilities could be learned by Acolytes. Might I recommend teaching some more basic mental abilities, Avreet? A simple mind trick, or the basic applications of Force Fear?

He does not know those. Or does he? Force corruption is an advanced mind trick, so maybe I did not even realize he learned it.

 

[Xan]

If he didn't know Mind Tricks (basic) or Force Fear, how would he have learned something more advanced (Memory Rub/Force Corrupt)?

 

[Black Noise]

Well, I did not know that. When my math teacher explains something new, I may not be able to put it to use, but I know the theory, which I can explain to my classmates who did not understand the teacher's explanation. I thought this was similar, now I know it's not. Peace.

The Force is not simply head knowledge, Bubak. In order to teach something correctly about the Force, the teacher must first have both an indepth knowledge of the subject and have experienced it. It is not similar to learning a mathematical theory, think of it more as learning a martial art. I know people who practice Muy Thai, and I know how to perform a few Muy Thai moves. However, I am not capable of reproducing these moves myself, therefore I am woefully inadaquate to teach them to anyone else.

He does not know those. Or does he? Force corruption is an advanced mind trick, so maybe I did not even realize he learned it.

It IS possible to learn higher up force mind tricks without having learned the baser abilities, however, without a firm foundation in the lower abilities those higher up abilities would be exceedingly weak. And no, unless he trained the base abilities, he does not know them.

In terms of gymnastics, A 'Round off' is more difficult than a cartwheel and is more advanced than a cartwheel, but that does not mean that a child able to do a roundoff can do a cartwheel, in fact it's quite the opposite. If they know the round off without knowledge of the cartwheel, it often takes more time to teach them how to do a cartwheel correctly because the coach has to break the child's habit of the roundoff.

Because the force, even mental abilities, are understood more in a physical way than in a non-physical way, this methodology is also applied to the Force.

EDIT: To put it in a more specific manner for a Star Wars character. Mira Albion knows Force Insanity to a great and powerful degree. Force Insanity is a great deal similar to Dominate Mind, as Force Insanity forces madness upon a person against their will. However, Mira has not trained Dominate Mind, therefore her Force Insanity is weaker than that of a different Sith who has trained both Dominate Mind and Force Insanity from the ground up(mind trick, dominate mind. force fear, force horror, force insanity).

 

[Bubák]

How do you know the Force is not a head knowledge, Black Noise? Do you use the Force? Do you know someone who does? No. Since none of us knows how the Force works, we all have our interpretations. In most classes, the teacher first tells his students some theory before the students attempt to use the taught Force power. In some classes, the teacher demonstrates the ability, in some he doesn't. Theory is the most commont thing that teaches the students. Once a student succeeds at performing the learned Force power, what stops them from teaching it to someone else? If they repeat everything the teacher said and demonstrate the Force power, no matter how weak it is since they are inexperienced, what stops the other student from learning it?
As for knowing a Force power and being unable to know one of it's variations until you learn it in a thread, what about Force choke? It's telekinesis. If my character knows how to grab objects with his mind, why couldn't he grab people under their necks? Without training, it will be sloppy, no doubt about that, but after a few chokes, you'll get the right 'grip' :D

But whatever, you are the FL, if you say Avreet cannot teach that, so be it.

But why am I the only one who has to justify their Force powers in order to be able to hold a class? Several threads down, there is a Crusader no older than Avreet who is teaching Mind domination and nobody tells him he cannot do that, nobody even asked where he learned it. What have I done to earn this 'special treatment'?

 

[Kiro]

How do you know the Force is not a head knowledge, Black Noise? Do you use the Force? Do you know someone who does? No. Since none of us knows how the Force works, we all have our interpretations. In most classes, the teacher first tells his students some theory before the students attempt to use the taught Force power. In some classes, the teacher demonstrates the ability, in some he doesn't. Theory is the most commont thing that teaches the students. Once a student succeeds at performing the learned Force power, what stops them from teaching it to someone else? If they repeat everything the teacher said and demonstrate the Force power, no matter how weak it is since they are inexperienced, what stops the other student from learning it?
As for knowing a Force power and being unable to know one of it's variations until you learn it in a thread, what about Force choke? It's telekinesis. If my character knows how to grab objects with his mind, why couldn't he grab people under their necks? Without training, it will be sloppy, no doubt about that, but after a few chokes, you'll get the right 'grip' :D

But whatever, you are the FL, if you say Avreet cannot teach that, so be it.

But why am I the only one who has to justify their Force powers in order to be able to hold a class? Several threads down, there is a Crusader no older than Avreet who is teaching Mind domination and nobody tells him he cannot do that, nobody even asked where he learned it. What have I done to earn this 'special treatment'?

Bubak. This is the second Faction Leadership member you've tried to antagonize in the same thread. Drop the attitude.

No, Black Noise does not use the Force (last time I checked, but he may have used Mind Trick on me...), but he IS intimately familiar with Star Wars and how the Force works as a result of it, and I'm sad to inform you, Bubak, that yes, the Force does work much like BN described it. But remember that the Force, especially anything related to the Dark Side, is alot more than simple mental theory. If it was purely mental theory, every new Acolyte or Jedi Padawan with an overactive imagination, would be able to hurl mountains and moons around with their brain.

The Force is, in it's very very crudest and simplest form, an energy source. One that certain individuals in the Star Wars universe is capable of harnessing thanks to being born with a couple of lucky genes. They can manipulate this energy source into doing a whole bunch of weird shit through intense mental, SPIRITUAL, and physical training. It's more than just sitting down and reading 'Advanced Quantumphysics 101', which you seem to believe by reading your previous comments in this thread.

The application of Force Powers usually requires some prior knowledge of said form, which is why Jedi and Sith and other Force Sensetive groups hold classes where they discuss the theory behind it. Yet that is not a direct prerequisite for knowing or using one. What's far more important is your emotional and mental state at the time, that you possess the stamina required, and that you possess the level of mastery over the Force to avoid burning yourself out or accidentially killing yourself.

Yes, sometimes you get lucky with experimentation. Yes, some are more 'drawn' or naturally inclined towards certain aspects or genres of the Force. But even then, you don't run around using the Force Powers of a Sith Lord when you're barely stronger than a middling Knight.

But no, Force Grip/Choke is not just Telekinesis. Yes, it's covered by the umbrella term 'Telekinesis', but it's far more than that. It requires you to display immense emotional rage and distress, it requires a great deal of focus and attention. Remember, Push, Pull, Lift, Throw, are basic abilities, that an Acolyte and Padawan would spend most of their time during those ranks learning, along with Speed, Jump, and Force Sense. If you wanna go more advanced than that, you'll need to actually RP in threads or attend several classes to extend your grasp (no pun intended) beyond those basic variations.

And no, Bubak. You aren't being given special attention. We simply didn't notice the other class yet, but rest assured they'll be given the very same treatment. What drew our attention to this was just as much due to the fact that you've been hosting alot of very advanced Force power classes for Acolytes, when those classes would be better suited for middling to high end Crusaders and Masters.

 

[Bubák]

Kiro, I am not antagonizing anyone, I just dislike when people force their opinions onto me. Yes, you are both FLs and this is my first roleplay site, so I definitely lack experience, but that does not mean I am not familiar with Star Wars. You have your opinion of the Force, I have mine, so please stop acting as if your opinion is the only right one. You may be right, you may be wrong, thing is, the Force does not exist, so you cannot possibly know which one of us is right. I fully realize that to be able to effectively use some Force powers, you need extensive training, but you don't need it as much to simply use a much weaker version of it. It will be ineffective, it will be tiresome, but you know how to use it, and with practice you will get better.

My character struggles to use many of the strong powers he has not practiced too much, so if you feel he is too powerful to use them at all, you could make a list of what powers Crusaders cannot use. Avreet had learned many of those powers in classes as an Acolyte and nobody cared, so I apologize for not realizing he was not strong enough to use them as other Acolyte characters used them just fine as well. That doesn't mean he had mastered any of them though, and he is by no means doing these classes only for Acolytes - thing is, Acolytes are the only ones who sign up for them.

As for Force choke, Kiro, it is a matter of opinion again. I believe it is just telekinesis. Obviously, to use it effectively, you need to practice it. I always thought rage and anger wasn't actually a part of the Force power itself, rather than just emotions that allowed the user throw away their moral restrictions and use the power on a living being.

I hope this won't stir up the tension between us even more. I do want to get along with you, guys.

 

[Black Noise]

Kiro, I am not antagonizing anyone, I just dislike when people force their opinions onto me. Yes, you are both FLs and this is my first roleplay site, so I definitely lack experience, but that does not mean I am not familiar with Star Wars. You have your opinion of the Force, I have mine, so please stop acting as if your opinion is the only right one. You may be right, you may be wrong, thing is, the Force does not exist, so you cannot possibly know which one of us is right. I fully realize that to be able to effectively use some Force powers, you need extensive training, but you don't need it as much to simply use a much weaker version of it. It will be ineffective, it will be tiresome, but you know how to use it, and with practice you will get better.

My character struggles to use many of the strong powers he has not practiced too much, so if you feel he is too powerful to use them at all, you could make a list of what powers Crusaders cannot use. Avreet had learned many of those powers in classes as an Acolyte and nobody cared, so I apologize for not realizing he was not strong enough to use them as other Acolyte characters used them just fine as well. That doesn't mean he had mastered any of them though, and he is by no means doing these classes only for Acolytes - thing is, Acolytes are the only ones who sign up for them.

As for Force choke, Kiro, it is a matter of opinion again. I believe it is just telekinesis. Obviously, to use it effectively, you need to practice it. I always thought rage and anger wasn't actually a part of the Force power itself, rather than just emotions that allowed the user throw away their moral restrictions and use the power on a living being.

I hope this won't stir up the tension between us even more. I do want to get along with you, guys.

Bubak, you are taking an antagonizing tone and position whether you realize it or not. What you seem to not understand is that we are not offering our opinions, we're presenting fact. Fact, no character on this site may utilize an ability nor teach it well without first training it, and any application of you doing that, whether called out on or not, is meta gaming. End of story.

If he struggles to use them, then how can he teach them to someone else? To speak in your terms, if you struggle to understand a mathematical concept yourself then you will be completely inadaquate to teach that concept to someone else. Let alone someone who may or may not be stronger/more knowledgeable than you.

While I agree with you on Force Choke, I only do so because of what the Wookieepedia states on the ability itself(that it is used by both the light and the dark side). However, it also states that the ability requires immense concentration, and any breaking of that concentration would result in the loss of that ability.

However, Force Choke is a rather simple application of telekinesis and, therefore, a bad example to compare to 'dominate mind' and 'force insanity.' A user being attacked mentally through the force has little to no ability to defend himself without training, but a user being attacked by force choke must simply distract the man choking him, and that can be as easy as 'Oh look it's a squirrel!'

Tension is stirred when you refuse to listen to reason. If the wookieepedia states that a force user can auto-know all lower level powers by first learning a higher level ability, then we will abidicate our position. But it does not, therefore it is open to interpretation, and the interpretation held by this site and this faction is that no, you may not know all lower level abilities by default if you learn a higher level power. If the wookieepedia states that padawans teach each other abilities they themselves are both weak in and do not fully understand, then we will abidicate our position. But it does not.

 

[Bubák]

You may not realize it, but I actually do not disagree with you except for what you wrote about the Force.

Avreet had practiced the powers, just not in enough threads as I couldn't have known that before starting this thread. By struggling, I mean he cannot do it easily, he has to focus, possibly kneel down and touch his target, become completely passive while trying to corrupt someone's mind/delete memories, which takes him a lot of time. In my opinion, he'd be able to teach the principles of those powers, but if you feel that's not the case, alright.

And how do I fail to listen to reason? Where did I write that by learning a high level ability, you automatically know all of it's lesser forms? I just asked if by learning what is basically a Dark Side mind trick allows my character to know normal mind trick, Wookieepedia does not state how it works at all, and I used Force choke as an unfortunate example because it seemed relevant.