P-Town OOC

[Chask274]

Creating this thread to discuss and work out a possible issue with the most recent post from @Relent . From what I can tell, triggering the dead guard's grenades via the Force violates the following three rules:
"The Force: E. You are not permitted to use Force Powers against a non-Force user if the non-Force user is unable to counter that attack..."

"Combat:
E. Any attack must be able to be countered unless you have approached the end of a duel. You cannot simply walk into a thread and kill someone instantly. Everyone should be given the chance to defend themselves after every move. Whether or not they are able to think of a defense is up to their own imagination.
J. ...NPCs are not to be used in order to gain an advantage in a PvP setting..."

I'd like to try to discuss this issue amongst ourselves before going to reports, but I will send a report in if need be.

@Gian Greydragon @Relent @Phoenix

 

[Logan]

Sure.

I'll edit but will need an extension from the original 48 hour timeout which I think is in a few minutes.

@Arclight

 

[Arcangel]

Sure.

I'll edit but will need an extension from the original 48 hour timeout which I think is in a few minutes.

@Arclight

12 hour extension granted.

 

[Logan]

Edited y'all.

 

[Phoenix]

@Gian Greydragon just a quick clarifier, at this part "with the center point of his greatsaber's blade, and wrenching the lightsaber down, and to Szebat's right" did you mean Szebat's left? Corvo's swinging from Szebat's left to right so if you pushed Corvo's blade to Szebat's right that would be in the direction of Corvo's swing and I'm pretty sure that that would mean he got cut in half?

 

[Gian Greydragon]

You're right, I'll fix that. He's meant to be parrying away from himself.

Edits made.

 

[Gian Greydragon]

I've posted. If anything is wrong about my post, let me know. I was trying to accurately interpret our stances and positions.
@Relent @Phoenix @Chask274

 

[Phoenix]

Hey there @Gian Greydragon so there're a couple of things about your post that I think... don't really work. First off and most important, that defense doesn't really work...

In order to pull his saber back and defend his hands, his saber would have to phase through Corvo's based on their positions. Even if that were possible, he doesn't really have time for that since he's already pushing down on Corvo's blade elsewhere. Corvo's blade is only having to move about three inches, so Szebat doesn't have time to 1) identify the attack, 2) abandon his strike, and 3) reposition his blade (which is still phasing through Corvo's) in order to defend himself

Also as a note on this (and this may be where the confusion is coming from or maybe I didn't describe it well enough) "he'd extended that arm to strike, at Szebat's wrists" Corvo's arm is already there as per my previous post. That's why Szebat also doesn't have time because Corvo really is just having to slightly move his wrist to complete his attack

As a side note, if that pressure that Szebat is putting on Corvo's blade suddenly disappears, the momentum in Corvo's wrist is going to snap forward and cut Szebat's head off...

Anyway, if I'm misunderstanding something let me know but unfortunately as it stands that post doesn't seem to me as if it's really valid =/ Anyway, if I've misinterpreted something, do point it out please

 

[Gian Greydragon]

I was under the impression there was more space between Corvo and Szebat, that would allow for him to defend against these attacks. Space has played a key role in Szebat's defense game, so if that's been circumvented completely, then I don't have much else in my bag of tricks. I guess I concede defeat. I would ask that you let @Chask274 escape.

 

[Phoenix]

I was under the impression there was more space between Corvo and Szebat, that would allow for him to defend against these attacks. Space has played a key role in Szebat's defense game, so if that's been circumvented completely, then I don't have much else in my bag of tricks. I guess I concede defeat. I would ask that you let @Chask274 escape.

I suppose that final word will be up to @Relent though I'm not sure how eager they'd be to let a Grand Admiral walk away, especially one who's targeting Corvo's family

 

[Chask274]

@Arclight @Relent @Phoenix

Report filed on Relent's post under the belief it breaks the rule concerning Force-based attacks needing to be able to be countered if they target a non-Force user.

 

[Phoenix]

@Arclight @Relent @Phoenix

Report filed on Relent's post under the belief it breaks the rule concerning Force-based attacks needing to be able to be countered if they target a non-Force user.

This is just me commenting as someone else in the thread and not as an admin (since I can't rule on my own threads, duh). But this isn't a violation of that rule. There is nothing inherent to this attack that makes it un-counter-able. The timing of this attack is what would make it hit, which is just an indication of a good PvP attack. Not every attack can be dodged, that's why people end up getting hit in PvP, the concept that an attack is invalid because it would land isn't really what that rule means... but I guess we'll wait for a ruling now so I'll hold off posting

 

[Chask274]

@Phoenix

To counter something is to act in opposition of it or otherwise oppose it. If an attack can't be acted against before hitting it's mark, by the definition of the word, it can't be countered, and as such would violate the rule as it's currently worded. Hence why the report was made.

 

[Phoenix]

@Phoenix

To counter something is to act in opposition of it or otherwise oppose it. If an attack can't be acted against before hitting it's mark, by the definition of the word, it can't be countered, and as such would violate the rule as it's currently worded. Hence why the report was made.

I'm aware of what the word "counter" means, but I'm afraid you're misrepresenting the rule. The rule in question (you are not permitted to use Force Powers against a non-Force user if the non-Force user is unable to counter that attack. However, almost all of the powers can be used against non-Force users.) prohibits attacks on non-FS that are inherently unable to be countered, a thrown lightsaber has plenty of counters

The other rule about counters is "any attack must be able to be countered unless you have approached the end of a duel. You cannot simply walk into a thread and kill someone instantly. Everyone should be given the chance to defend themselves after every move. Whether or not they are able to think of a defense is up to their own imagination."

This is not Relent "walking into a thread and killing Vaxus instantly" which is what that rule prohibits. If the duel has been ongoing and one character manages to trap the other (approaching the end of the duel) in the timing of their post (or something else) there will by definition of the rule above be attacks that cannot be countered because of how the characters are set up. It's not because the attack itself is inherently unable to be countered but because the situation prevents it

An illustration of what I'm talking about is my attack on Gian earlier: he couldn't defend against it because he didn't have time after our previous posts and the way the blades were set up. The slash itself could be countered if the situations were different (it was just a lightsaber slash after all), but the character was ultimately written into a corner, if the same has happened to Vaxus it is not because Relent is breaking the rules

I say all of that because while this is still waiting for a ruling that line of thinking that "everything should have a way out all the time" is expressly counter-stated (ha, "counter" how punny... ok sorry, I digress) in rule 5:E and that line of thought will cause you a lot of trouble in future PvP and is a misconception I'd rather clear up now rather than letting it perpetuate. The rules don't prohibit writing another character into a corner

 

[Arcangel]

OFFICIAL RULING: The Lightsaber throw is legal.

The reason being that it is not uncounterable due to the fact that it is a force attack, but because of the timing and circumstances. Due to the timing, it would be no different if it was a thrown lightsaber or a blaster bolt, catching an opponent as they come out of a roll. This is what's known as being written into a corner, where if one can't think of a reasonable move to avoid damage, they must then either find a reasonable move to mitigate the damage, or concede the hit as written.

Where it not for the circumstances (close range throw at an opponent occupied with coming out of a roll and bringing a weapon to bear), such an attack would not be overly difficult to avoid. Even as it stands there are several avenues for mitigating the damage to the character.