The First Sith: Experience Points and Character Levels

[Sreeya]

Levels will remain fixed, so once a character achieves a level, they will retain that notoriety and power.

As far as faction Ranks go.... It might be possible to lose higher ranks, such as the more leadership based ranks of Counciler and Grandmaster through inactivity, as ideally those would be occupied by active members.

One could also lose a rank voluntarily for story purposes, as part of a plot or something.

Also, in the case of a faction like the Sith/Exiles, others would be able to challenge for ranks like they do now via plots. But again, it might result in rank loss, but not levels.

 

[Wit]

Also, in the case of a faction like the Sith/Exiles, others would be able to challenge for ranks like they do now via plots. But again, it might result in rank loss, but not levels.

So if someone levels up to higher ranks and then does nothing with it players can challenge them and depose them? That's a good thing, don't want people leveling up to positions of power, and then just vanishing and expecting their characters to stay relevant while they do nothing with them. :P

 

[Panda Hermit 98]

Does this ranking system mean we cannot begin as a padawan, or can we still do that?

 

[Raydo]

Props to the admin team...you did good

 

[Dmitri]

Does this ranking system mean we cannot begin as a padawan, or can we still do that?

You can still be a Padawan if you so choose. Specifics are forthcoming.

 

[Brandon Rhea]

You can still be a Padawan if you so choose. Specifics are forthcoming.

Upon further discussion we decided that the answer will be no, there will be no Padawan rank (or its equivalent in other factions) allowed.

A Padawan level introductions complications in this new system. Someone could theoretically rank up to Level 3 or 4 and still say they want to be a Padawan. In a system where level and power are somewhat tied together, that creates a scenario where there could be an over-powered Padawan.

There is also no functional use for a Padawan type rank in the role-play because there is no mechanism for training on the site.

However, we recognize that some people don't want to start off at Knight-level powers and potential, so we decided on a compromise.

In-universe, we will be saying that the Jedi abolished their Padawan rank. This is a desperate time. There numbers are decimated. Expecting a 13 year old to spend 7 years in training (because, story-wise, that's what's realistic even if that's not how training works on the site) when he or should is fully capable of swinging a lightsaber in battle would be a waste of a soldier. And unlike in the Clone Wars, where Jedi like Ahsoka could go into battle while still being part of a Padawan/Master duo, these Jedi don't have the luxury of that kind of formal structure. So once someone can swing a lightsaber and is of a reasonable age, they are made a Knight and put into battle.

For those of you who want to still be of a Padawan-equivalent power and experience level, you can play that type of Jedi Knight. If you want to do any sort of training, you can find a more experienced Knight or Master to train with.

We recognize that the Knight equivalent in the Exiles is "Apprentice" and that this could be potentially confusing given this stance, so we'll be considering the naming scheme for the Exile ranks more as well.

 

[Gamov]

We recognize that the Knight equivalent in the Exiles is "Apprentice" and that this could be potentially confusing given this stance, so we'll be considering the naming scheme for the Exile ranks more as well.

"Disciple" might work. As just a random suggestion.

Overall though, I do like the system I see coming together here. This shift more towards a focus on individuals rather than factions really does place the direction of the story (both personal and site-wide) in the hands of each and every member. Really the only limitations to your achievements are your imagination and work ethic.

As an aside to this word count = XP system though... what of things like social threads? Will those even count? Usually things like those tend to die off rather quickly or wind up as silly little sidebars where nothing of major importance happens. I assume the staff would review them on a case by case basis to see whether or not they qualify for "credits".

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to earn levels just detailing my character sitting around getting blackout drunk. But something tells me I won't exactly be allowed to do that.

 

[Rorren]

Yeah more I'm thinking about this stuff the more excited I am for this timeline to see how it goes. More than happy to play a young knight in the new expansion. Main faction here I come (despite having a decent possibility I may leave the Jedi but oh well)!

 

[Deviant]

Staff is gonna have to read and review threads now?

 

[Clayton]

Staff is gonna have to read and review threads now?

In entirely unrelated news, we will soon be holding a draft for thread review moderators. Bone spurs won't save you from this one.

 

[Brandon Rhea]

In entirely unrelated news, we will soon be holding a draft for thread review moderators. Bone spurs won't save you from this one.

 

[Nor'baal]

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to earn levels just detailing my character sitting around getting blackout drunk. But something tells me I won't exactly be allowed to do that.

 

[Eccles]

I love it. It's a lot of work to reach a level some try to play as from the start, which I've always disliked as they subsequently complain their actions don't impact the main story.

One thing, and it's probably already asked and answered, but it all seems pretty tailored to force sensitive (main faction) characters. Now, I know this is star wars and they are and will remain the main focus but I'm not entirely sure how it compares to the normal folks out there.

Comparing a regular thug to Boba Fett kinda boils down to tech and influence feels too much like wealth and NPCs, which cannot be worked into PvP. Can we expect a more detailed description or is it something we're going to work out as we get there (as its a pilot)?

 

[christhebetrayer]

I have a question, I’m planning character that lives a double life, his two lives are very different. Would I need to make two character sub accounts to measure each side of his life level of influence or would it just pile into one sub account?

 

[Clayton]

You clearly haven't read any of my RPs with Valek.

 

[Clayton]

I have a question, I’m planning character that lives a double life, his two lives are very different. Would I need to make two character sub accounts to measure each side of his life level of influence or would it just pile into one sub account?

Just the one account.

 

[Vosrik]

Absolutely love the direction the site is taking. I think it’s a huge step in the right direction to promote storytelling and character building.

@Rorren, I know you mentioned the possibility of post count instead of word count for gaining credits and it was kinda ignored. The main reason post count is an inferior method is because people write different sized posts. Some people, like myself and nerds like @Deviant write average-to-larger sized posts while others are more comfortable with a single paragraph (or less). I’ve seen whole threads that are three or four pages long, but each post has one or two sentences and is generally quite short. If credits were determined by posts, you can see how imbalanced this could be. With word count, it doesn’t matter if you have 3 large posts or 5 smaller ones - you’ll get equal credits.

A question though: with the increase in ranks/levels, are you able to control or make use of any number of NPCs? I understand this is a whole other can of worms, and I totally get it if that’s not something you have an answer for yet :P

 

[Fyston]

Another question: Will it be possible to hide as a higher leveled character?

For example, say I play a simple laborer who, in his off time, pulls off heists or otherwise comes into a lot of money illegally (but is careful in executing these heists to avoid leaving evidence, doesn't spend his money, etc). Would being level 3 or 4 prevent him from effectively hiding or would he be able to reap the benefits of being a higher level while not having to worry about being at his day job and someone going "You held up that bank on Planet B three weeks ago"?

 

[1new6]

Upon further discussion we decided that the answer will be no, there will be no Padawan rank (or its equivalent in other factions) allowed.

A Padawan level introductions complications in this new system. Someone could theoretically rank up to Level 3 or 4 and still say they want to be a Padawan. In a system where level and power are somewhat tied together, that creates a scenario where there could be an over-powered Padawan.

There is also no functional use for a Padawan type rank in the role-play because there is no mechanism for training on the site.

However, we recognize that some people don't want to start off at Knight-level powers and potential, so we decided on a compromise.

In-universe, we will be saying that the Jedi abolished their Padawan rank. This is a desperate time. There numbers are decimated. Expecting a 13 year old to spend 7 years in training (because, story-wise, that's what's realistic even if that's not how training works on the site) when he or should is fully capable of swinging a lightsaber in battle would be a waste of a soldier. And unlike in the Clone Wars, where Jedi like Ahsoka could go into battle while still being part of a Padawan/Master duo, these Jedi don't have the luxury of that kind of formal structure. So once someone can swing a lightsaber and is of a reasonable age, they are made a Knight and put into battle.

For those of you who want to still be of a Padawan-equivalent power and experience level, you can play that type of Jedi Knight. If you want to do any sort of training, you can find a more experienced Knight or Master to train with.

We recognize that the Knight equivalent in the Exiles is "Apprentice" and that this could be potentially confusing given this stance, so we'll be considering the naming scheme for the Exile ranks more as well.

As someone who was really looking forward to playing a Padawan next TL I gotta say this is kinda a deal breaker for me :/...

I should preface this with this is my opinion, but hopefully you guys will still hear me out. This is pretty dear to my heart, so I guess I still want to try and make an argument for Padawans next TL.

So, here it goes.

Though I understand where you guys are coming from with the levels system, I don’t quite understand the lore rational or even why it is a problem logistically in the first place.

Let's start with the lore. If the Jedi have been decimated by a chaotic line of successions from their ranks, why in the world would they ever decide to just make everyone a knight? That seems like the single stupidest thing they could have ever done. The whole danger of the sith/exiles (I understand there is a difference but for the purposes of this post I am going to use the terms interchangeably) is that they can corrupt from within, turning entire segments of the Jedi order to their side with only words/temptation. Surely the best way to combat this is to A. put more oversight upon members of the order who are not trusted (e.g padawans, younglings, and even some knights) and B. not give those untrusted individuals any power that they could use when/if they turned to the dark side (Such as making them full blown Jedi knights with all the privilege and access to battle plans, troop movements, and restricted archives that entails). In legends the Jedi understood this, even at their lowest the Jedi never abolished the rank of padawan/apprentice/disciple; indeed when the threat of the Sith grew stronger they gave padawans MORE oversight not less. Take the early old republic, before the rise of the exiles and sith. In that time period many masters would train entire groups of Padawans/disciples far away from the centralized Jedi temples (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jedi_training/Legends), but as the Sith rose in prominance this practice decreased and was eventually abolished, essentially ending by the time of the rise of the first galactic empire and the time period of the SWTOR game. This is because the Jedi were quick to realise that not only could these masters often not properly judge if their students were ready for the rank of Jedi Knight and all the responsibilities it held, but also because such lack of oversight fostered corruption and paved the path to the darkside (notice the reference to corruption/savagery in some of these lone master’s trials on the wookieepedia article). The rank of Padawan is critical to feeling out who is and who isn’t ready/prepared to be a true Jedi, it is to find any lingering seeds of darkness and (all things being perfect) stamp them out. By the time a Padawan has become a knight they should be loyal to the Jedi order and be able to resist the temptations of the darkside.
But that isn’t even the most fundamental problem with taking away the rank of Padawan, the most fundamental problem is that it isn’t who the Jedi are. The entire point of the Jedi is that when threatened they don’t lash out, but instead consolidate. With the near total decimation of their order at the Seventh Battle of Ruusan they didn’t decide to open up the Jedi order to more students/promote unworthy students to ranks they hadn’t achieved, they passed the Ruusan Reformation, cracking down on their training programs and reinforced stringent oversight on members not trusted completely. And the Ruusan Reformation is the perfect analogy to how the Jedi react in strife, sure there will always be a few who branch out (e.g Revan or Jedi Lord Hoth), but on the whole the Jedi are a conservative faction, they will always favor control over power. Padawans are the perfect embodiment of that control and it is not one I can see the Jedi ever discarding.

Now let's talk about the logistical problems with having Padawans in the game. Frankly, I don’t think their are any, as long as it is made clear what playing a Padawan entails. If you are willing to play a Padawan you have to understand your limitations. No, you are not going to defeat a Sith lord (/Exile lord) in one on one combat (assuming no trickery is involved of course). No, you are not going to be the bad ass Jedi murdering whole swaths of troopers (/whatever ground forces the exiles have, if any). You are the puppy fighting war hounds, you have to be willing to play the captured target or the student thrown way out of their league. You have to be willing to have your character have serious limits. This is something that can work wonderfully in rp, a Jedi Knight/Master who brings their Padawan with them into conflict (as I assume most would if we were going to use Padawans) would have to keep an eye on their Padawan as they fight, probably needing to help out on occasion. This dynamic makes the combat that much richer, and would probably foster a fun interplay otherwise absent from most combat encounters.
I haven’t talked much about the levels themselves yet, but how would they work into this? Much the same way as any other non combat character, a padawan's levels simply relate to how well known she is within the faction. At level 1 perhaps the padawan is just one of the hundreds of other padawans, perhaps a few people known him/her, but overall they are a relative non entity in the faction. By level four however, the majority of the faction knows who they are; think of Ashoka by the end of the clone wars, she was only a padawan, yet the majority of the Jedi council knew who she was and a large portion of the republic military did aswell (even if it was just in terms of knowing her to be Anakin’s padawan). Am I saying that level has zero bearing on combat? Not quite, obviously a level one padawan is going to probably lose to a level four padawan in combat, but the extent to which a padawan can reach is far diminished. For example, a level four padawan is probably about on par with a newly initiated knight. These are simply truths that anyone playing a padawan needs to accept, they are simply part of playing a padawan. If you want to play a PvP god, padawan is probably not the rank for you (as would make sense realistically speaking).
Last up, let's talk about how to deal with Padawans who become knights. This is probably the one situation where I do see the level issue arising and being truly difficult to deal with. In terms of faction recognition, this would be a non issue, of course a padawan who was well known to the faction would not suddenly lose that notoriety when she/he became a knight, it is when we deal with combat power that things get tricky. As I said a padawan is straight up not as powerful as a knight and thus their levels don’t mean nearly as much, however, if a padawan were to be level 3 or so then be promoted to a knight, would they be considered to suddenly have the combat power of a Jedi counselor? Obviously not, but how to regulate that kind of thing? Well, in my view, though it might seem to be a very very large problem, it really isn’t quite as bad as it may first seem. The amount of people who will actually play a padawan into knighthood for long enough that they reach higher levels like 2, 3, or 4, obviously are not the kind of people who are going to whine if their characters are less powerful, nor are their going to be that many of them in the first place. These special cases should probably be handled on a case by case basis (as I said, I doubt there will be enough of them to warrant too much of a kerfuffle), but generally I would recommend the newly minted knights to voluntarily reduce their combat power to what they/admins deem realistic, until they have accumulated more experience as a knight, simple as that.


Ok, that is my long winded argument over. I really hope this changes some minds about the padawan issue, but if not, I’m glad you at least took the time to read my rambling nonsense and take it into consideration. :)

P.S Sorry about any grammar mistakes, I didn't have much time to reread this, so I'm just gonna assume I made some large mishaps in terms of punctuation at some point or another. Hopefully my rambling is still somewhat legible!

 

[Brandon Rhea]

The lore rationale is that the Jedi are indeed making a mistake. In their desperation, they're doing things that don't quite make sense. The Jedi Order historically makes really dumb decisions in times of war. See also: the entirety of the Clone Wars.

Why not channel the disappointment over not being able to play as a Padawan into your character? Maybe your character also wanted to be a Padawan and train with a master, but the wartime decisions being made by the Jedi Council means s/he can't do that. Maybe s/he resents that. Maybe that resentment leads towards corruption. Maybe it leads to doing something to trying to rebuild the Jedi Order into what they're supposed to be.

There are numerous story avenues you could take as a result of this.

But if not, it comes down to the fact that not every site change is going to please everyone and unfortunately not everyone will be able to do everything they may have wanted to do. Or the system isn't going to be everyone's cup of tea. That's fine, but we can't cater to everything. So I think the best approach is to use this decision and channel it into your character.