Dawn of the Republic: Jedi Knights

[Reya Starlyght]

I think if someone really wants to have gauntlets, I would not recommend them as a main weapon. Maybe sort of a backup or something you can throw in for surprise. Another thing is to consider having metal gauntlets and not saber ones.

 

[Korvo]

It actually boils down to very real swordmanship techniques and their applications. The Indian gauntlet blade is really the only non-fantasy application that worked because of its balance, but relied heavily on the person using it Primarily because it wasn't strapped onto the wearer's arm. What you are describing is "movie swordsmanship", which is not something to be taken into account when discussing actual combat effectiveness. Being mounted on your forearms, you lose the versatility of actually holding the weapon, including but not limited to: effective guards, guard changes, and general combat momentum. The movement of the wrist in swordsmanship is extremely important, from Epee to Meisterhue, to kenjitsu. It allows for those shifts of guard and the flow of combat momentum

Imagine fighting like a pugilist, but you have broomsticks taped to your arms. You'll be getting in your own way more often than not, and with that fulcrum extending from your arms, your guard can be swept away with a flick of the wrist. Your blocks are limited to the movie classic "X block", which is really only effective in hand-to-hand, and doesn't really do much for you in terms of swordplay. Finesse is one of the most important aspect of swordplay. If you lack finesse, you are going to overswing and leave yourself open to attack. Contrary to the asinine works of George R.R. Martin, Knights are not the "hacking and hammering" brutes people think they were. One could argue that finesse is even more important for lightsaber-based weapons, since they are completely devoid of the balance point our physical weapons have.

Sure, the gauntlet may be harder to remove from the person using it, but the weaknesses of the gauntlet far outweigh that of canon saber styles. So, congrats. The only way your enemy will disarm you will be over your dead body, which will likely happen with saber-gauntlets.

I knew you were going to respond this way. I see this trap almost all the time, and while not detrimental, it is limiting in the creative and practical sense.

What I describe is indeed "movie swordsmanship". Much like Star Wars swordmanship, which while inspiration was taken from some real-world methods, has almost nothing in common with said real-world forms, techniques or styles. Jedi and Sith embrace a fantastic, grandiose and exaggerated style of combat. Real-world knowledge can help, even give perspective, but it is far from necessary.

Your approach, however, doesn't necessarily do your characters any favors, for two main reasons. Real-world combat, as stated above, has limited application to the fighting embraced in Star Wars lore. Secondly, and more importantly, real-world combative mechanics have even less application on the forum. Effective guarding, general momentum are some characteristics, but it goes deeper. Proper stance, effective posture or weight distribution, footwork, balance and weapon weight also impact real-life combat, but have borderline-zero practical application here.

The reason being is that combat isn't dependent on knowledge of real world swordfighting, techniques or finesse. Otherwise, the double-bladed lightsaber never would have made it past conception, nor would have the cross-hilt lightsaber, or any of the countless other variants made via EU. If someone wants to produce an effect during combat, then so long as the said effect is reasonable and they write intelligently, innovatively or creatively, they can produce it. If they choose to parry, they parry. If they choose to strike a rapid sequence of blows at several of a person's vital areas, they can do it. In that sense, RP forum battling has none of the restrictions real world combat does. If it did, almost no one would have the necessary book knowledge, much less practical knowledge, and it would become more of a chore than enjoyment.

For instance, you assume the only effective block is crossing the blades, as opposed to bodily motion with redirecting or deflection at an angle. And if I write it that way, within believable reason (by that, I mean not doing anything outrageous), then within the RP it happens. Hence, the real-world application, and constriction, of swordplay becomes inherently obsolete for many instances. Further, weaknesses you perceive only even apply to a real-world application, which has no bearing here. Unless someone writes the effect into their post, there is no "saber getting in the way" for them, there is no encumbrance or lack of flow in combat. I'll give you an example;

The Jedi Knight turned his body as he pivoted, swinging his blade with lethal intent as his lightsaber struck toward the Sith Lord's neck. The attack would undoubtedly prove lethal, but if deflected, the Jedi Knight would immediately use his momentum to perform a 360 degree turn, striking at the Sith Lord's lower torso to deliver the final blow, or at least keep him off balance. If deflected again, the Jedi Knight would strike a third and final time, rotating in opposite direction as his next strike would be a downward diagonal slash over the Sith Lord.

The Sith Lord pivoted opposite the Jedi Knight as the blue energy blade, rapidly coming toward his neck, was blocked at a diagonal angle by the Sith Lord's double-bladed lightsaber. Although prepared to attack, the Sith Lord opted to be patient, waiting for a weakness to reveal itself in the Jedi Knight's form. The Jedi Knight attacked again, this time spinning as he struck for the Sith Lord's mid-body. With a simple twist of his weapon, the Sith Lord's crimson blade deflected the attack on his opposite side, warding the blue lightsaber away. The Jedi Knight was on the full offensive now, building momentum, and the Sith Lord knew any warrior would press his attack. Without fail, the third strike came as the Jedi Knight twirled back again, bringing his blade crashing down over the Sith Lord. Rapidly spinning his blade in a buzzing motion, the Sith Lord swatted the Jedi Knight's blade upward with his own double-bladed lightsaber, and grasping his hilt with both hands, counterattacked as he brought his own saberstaff cleaving down over the Jedi Knight

Now, the double-bladed lightsaber is an extremely impractical weapon, there is no doubt there. But in the space of the roleplay, provided the RPer knows how to be creative, it can be every bit as practical and lethal as the more mainstream single blade. With all that twirling, you'd guess a man in real life might have lopped off his leg or hit his junk, but that doesn't happen here. Unless you intentionally limit your innovation, there is no measurable difference - with adequate experience or skill you can write through almost any situation. Even the advantages I mentioned can become irrelevant during a duel. In the end, it all comes down to taste, using what you want to use, and knowing how to write in a fight.

I did enjoy that mention of the Indian weapon, I think I saw that on Deadliest Warrior once. Was sick, seriously

 

[Arterius]

While i'm still working on her DoTR profile, here is the profile for my Jedi that i'm working on for the Roster.I hope this is where i put it haha
Leah Valkyrius.

 

[StormWolf]

I knew you were going to respond this way. I see this trap almost all the time, and while not detrimental, it is limiting in the creative and practical sense.

What I describe is indeed "movie swordsmanship". Much like Star Wars swordmanship, which while inspiration was taken from some real-world methods, has almost nothing in common with said real-world forms, techniques or styles. Jedi and Sith embrace a fantastic, grandiose and exaggerated style of combat. Real-world knowledge can help, even give perspective, but it is far from necessary.

Your approach, however, doesn't necessarily do your characters any favors, for two main reasons. Real-world combat, as stated above, has limited application to the fighting embraced in Star Wars lore. Secondly, and more importantly, real-world combative mechanics have even less application on the forum. Effective guarding, general momentum are some characteristics, but it goes deeper. Proper stance, effective posture or weight distribution, footwork, balance and weapon weight also impact real-life combat, but have borderline-zero practical application here.

I'm simply referring to actual historical and practical context as a baseline. It's not a trap, it's called being an author. One could argue that proper footing and weight distribution is even more important in Star Wars combat becasue they are being so acrobatic. All of the Star Wars combat techniques are anchored in real-life disciplines that have been around for hundreds of years. The fact you are saying that these staples of melee combat have little-to-no impact on melee combat is Star Wars highlights that you are approaching this through the eyes of fandom, and will see an end to you in PvP as if you actually took up a weapon as a layman against a trained opponent.

Digging deeper and seeing the inspirational origins of lightsaber combat will make you a better writer in such scenarios. For example, Djem So is an amalgamation of German longsword and japanese martial arts, both of which I have a combine fifteen years experience with. I understand its core practically, but also through the lenses of Star Wars lore. Wuxia films embrace the fantastic and grandiose, but they still employ martial arts masters to develop the actions done by the actors. Having some knowledge and actually doing some freaking homework on the matter is what separates the boys from the men, so to speak.
In any feature film involving combat, there is a professional choreographer planning out every move. Master Dee Dee is one such example, who embodies a fundamental rule that every artist should know: "Know the fundamentals before tweaking it". Just like how you shouldn't start off drawing anime before life-drawing. If you take a swing at something without at least some kind of reference, it is going to look like shit. Master Dee Dee has dedicated his whole life to martial arts. He knows them inside and out, so he tweaks them now with fundamental license and the addition of wires.

The reason being is that combat isn't dependent on knowledge of real world swordfighting, techniques or finesse. Otherwise, the double-bladed lightsaber never would have made it past conception, nor would have the cross-hilt lightsaber, or any of the countless other variants made via EU. If someone wants to produce an effect during combat, then so long as the said effect is reasonable and they write intelligently, innovatively or creatively, they can produce it. If they choose to parry, they parry. If they choose to strike a rapid sequence of blows at several of a person's vital areas, they can do it. In that sense, RP forum battling has none of the restrictions real world combat does. If it did, almost no one would have the necessary book knowledge, much less practical knowledge, and it would become more of a chore than enjoyment.

For instance, you assume the only effective block is crossing the blades, as opposed to bodily motion with redirecting or deflection at an angle. And if I write it that way, within believable reason (by that, I mean not doing anything outrageous), then within the RP it happens. Hence, the real-world application, and constriction, of swordplay becomes inherently obsolete for many instances. Further, weaknesses you perceive only even apply to a real-world application, which has no bearing here. Unless someone writes the effect into their post, there is no "saber getting in the way" for them, there is no encumbrance or lack of flow in combat. I'll give you an example;

Now this is a trap that many amateur authors fall in to. To make something relatable, it needs to have an anchor in the realistic and the practical. If you think the saber-staff is impractical, try a three-section staff or whip chain, both of which are real-world weapons that are extremely difficult to master yet can deal out pain in droves when used by a learned practitioner. The crossguard saber is honestly one of the most practical designs to come out of Star Wars in a long time. If your character uses poor footing or has limited defensive capabilities due to a poor lightsaber-gauntlet design, I'm going to take advantage of it.

There is a distinct difference between "I block it with my saber" and "angling his saber from shoulder to hip in a downward guard, I block the incoming attack, twisting my center to push my aggressor's blade away and drive a thrust kick at his ribs."
I'll entertain your notion that practicality makes no difference, even that the saber-gauntlet isn't moronic, but the constants of anatomy and physics still come into play. A long-handle lightsaber or pike will lend more oomph to the person wielding it because they have that leverage. Applying a little more shoulder grease, they'll push through that x-block and slice your head like a teppanyaki chef.

Now, the double-bladed lightsaber is an extremely impractical weapon, there is no doubt there. But in the space of the roleplay, provided the RPer knows how to be creative, it can be every bit as practical and lethal as the more mainstream single blade. With all that twirling, you'd guess a man in real life might have lopped off his leg or hit his junk, but that doesn't happen here. Unless you intentionally limit your innovation, there is no measurable difference - with adequate experience or skill you can write through almost any situation. Even the advantages I mentioned can become irrelevant during a duel. In the end, it all comes down to taste, using what you want to use, and knowing how to write in a fight.

As mentioned before, the saber-staff really isn't. Less practical than a cross-guard or pike? Sure, but there are plenty of examples in history where a double-bladed sword have been used. The saber-staff honestly uses much of the same techniques as quarterstaff, just you can't choke up on the shaft. And if by "real person" you are referring to Ray Park, the guy who played Maul and did all those spins? Okay...
See, you are starting to double back on your own logic when you talk about "knowing how to write in a fight". If you don't know anything about the weapon you are using, how can you hope to proper convey it in a fight if you don't know proper defensive positioning, footing, or strike zones?

I did enjoy that mention of the Indian weapon, I think I saw that on Deadliest Warrior once. Was sick, seriously[/QUOTE]

Deadliest Warrior, while fun, is no place to draw reference from. MTV level drivel from Spike, per usual.

tl;dr - If you want to write decent, dynamic combat, have an understanding of it. Nowadays, you can go on google and search X many forms of combat, then copy/pasta that into youtube. If you want to do PvP, then take that extra step and do your research. Not only are you learning, but you'll be adding to your arsenal as a writer for future reference, or at the very least, arming yourself to write your character in an authentic and dynamic way. Being completely frank, if it came between your Jedi and Rhonan sparring, I know Rhonan would win until you commit to doing homework on how you want your character to fight. But at this point, I'm arguing minutia with fandom-goggles, so you use the saber-gauntlets if you like. I won't stop you, I just wouldn't advise it.

The issue of the saber-gauntlet is that it removes much of the necessary "spices" one would use in combat. It'd be like cooking without salt and pepper, with your whisk taped to your wrist.

 

[Warmonger]

Are there any factions within the Order? Like are there Jedi who don't want the Order to be as combat-oriented as it actually is? Those who want it to be more proactive and aggressive?

 

[Painus]

Are there any factions within the Order? Like are there Jedi who don't want the Order to be as combat-oriented as it actually is? Those who want it to be more proactive and aggressive?

Something tells me things like that will develop naturally over the course of the timeline as the crusaders begin to butt heads with those more passive than they.

 

[Fen Vel]

@StormWolf and @Korvo

You are both, somewhat right.

Korvo what you have said boils down to, readers/players suspension of disbelief. Not everyone shares this and its impossible to really find out until it becomes a problem. Are there impractical things in Star Wars, yes. Wrist Sabers exchange some strength in certain situations for the lack of absolute finesse and allow your hands free to do other things. Personally they are right on the edge of my personal suspension of disbelief but I could see you making them work. That requires exactly what Stormwolf says though, homework. You need to know the movements, the limitations and the strength of what you do. How do you do that? Honestly the easiest way is to ducktape a one meter plastic pole to each wrist and test it out. You will look stupid but within five minutes you'll know exactly what they allow for and what they are good at.

My character is meant to be fairly poor fighter but I have been and will continue to study Tai Chi Sword Forms for her to use to try and enhance my posts and the fun that I and other people can have interacting with her. RP battles are a lot about manipulating the words the last poster said and if you aren't clear, then that is where problems come up. If you block, you need to say where the openings are. You never have to be a master, but you do need to know the jist of it and it can consist of just watching cool martial arts films, its half of what I do.

Or at least, that is how I see it.

 

[Reya Starlyght]

So, maybe we should talk about something else now? Everyone has their own preferred weapons and that's fine if they know how to use them. A lot of the other factions are talking about what they want to do first so how about that?

 

[Marcus]

So, maybe we should talk about something else now? Everyone has their own preferred weapons and that's fine if they know how to use them. A lot of the other factions are talking about what they want to do first so how about that?

I agree that debating things like fighting styles and weapons might be best placed in another thread, although some of it pertains specifically to Jedi. So I, personally, wouldn't necessarily derail the debate at this point. If they wanted a separate thread, I could link to it in the OP. :)

Now, as far as what we do next, I have been personally staying away from this because we don't know much about the Jedi yet. There was a pretty meaty article on the Sith, but not the Jedi yet. The Think Tank has a lot to write (or are presumably writing that right now), and that will help give us direction I would posit. It also depends on the FL and what that person wants to do, although discussions herein could help inform and guide that person as well. So I'd say we could talk about it (and we have a bit: suggestions on temples, sectors, fleets, which groups of us might do what), but I'd wait for an official Jedi write-up before we jump into anything concrete or terribly specific. I'd just hate to be all, "ok we're going to start on Tython and then take over Ossus" and then the TT comes back and says "Tython is barren and Ossus has been nuked by the Sith a la Starkiller Base." Not likely scenarios on either end, but hopefully it demonstrates my concern.

 

[Lamper]

Hey! I just got an idizzle! Who'd like to be coaxed by my character Aibhne Tibbot into forming a secret brotherhood within the Jedi ranks of war-minded, victory obsessed crusaders called "The Phalanx"??? For the pvp minded like myself. You get a small tattoo of three squares, like the shields of a phalanx like dis:
[beebox4=32%]

[/beebox4]

@Marcus @StandbyRanger @Korvo @AuroraRogersSkywalker @Baryon @Painus - just to name a few zealous looking fellows :p

 

[Reya Starlyght]

Quick question, is there a Jedi Skype? Or should someone start a new one?

 

[Lucy Lou]

I'd be interested in that if it's made

 

[Marcus]

Contact @Padmé to get added to the Jedi Skype channel/group.

 

[CJ Solo]

Been a while since I peeked over on this thread, anything new and interesting guys?

 

[Painus]

Been a while since I peeked over on this thread, anything new and interesting guys?

Nah, we're pretty boring people.

 

[CJ Solo]

I'd give you guys a little more credit than that. lol

 

[Painus]

Hey! I just got an idizzle! Who'd like to be coaxed by my character Aibhne Tibbot into forming a secret brotherhood within the Jedi ranks of war-minded, victory obsessed crusaders called "The Phalanx"??? For the pvp minded like myself. You get a small tattoo of three squares, like the shields of a phalanx like dis

This interests me. Go on.

 

[Reya Starlyght]

Sounds cool for Skype I'll contact her.

 

[Lamper]

This interests me. Go on.

The Phalanx brotherhood would secretly push the envelope, like a illuminati of the Jedi maybe even with our own chant - a short verse that voices our creed. For example, we might do stuff like, if a government won't cooperate with the Jedi war machine, frame their capitol city as a soft target worth taking for the Sith so the Sith annex it only so that we might militarily attack and take over the city by force and essentially annex it for ourselves for the people's own good. We could also establish a network of brothers and sisters who keep watch over the Jedi Order and, forcefully if necessary, restructure it to keep in line with the goals of Jedi success against the Sith? These members could also form the small task forces brought up earlier to sweep areas of enemies and attack pirate groups and bend cultures to our viewpoints and stuff. All for the greater good and such and for the future of the galaxy.

 

[CJ Solo]

That's a lot of dirty work questionable of a Jedi. lol