First Steps OOC

[Phoenix]

@Rom @Lucid @Critas

Since I feel like we're going to need it, and in case this comes to a ruling .__.

 

[Lucid]

Ya...

So @Phoenix your turn looks fine to me. I have a counter in mind so whatever.

My biggest problem is the timing and reaction speed of Art in @Critas post. The distance between them was defined as 10 or 12 meters. Let's say 11. Regardless of how charged with the Force Art was or even if he was expecting the attack the way the timing seems to be written has Art reacting in about .5 of a second since he wrote his movements following the rocket launch. They travel at 35m/s just like any other projectile.

To quote the recent meta change post, "he's not that good". I would expect Art to take at least a portion of the blast and be incapacitated if not killed. The strike was aimed and landed at basically Art's head level. He's not wearing a helmet and that would be a problem in this case.

Thoughts?

 

[Phoenix]

Ya...

So @Phoenix your turn looks fine to me. I have a counter in mind so whatever.

My biggest problem is the timing and reaction speed of Art in @Critas post. The distance between them was defined as 10 or 12 meters. Let's say 11. Regardless of how charged with the Force Art was or even if he was expecting the attack the way the timing seems to be written has Art reacting in about .5 of a second since he wrote his movements following the rocket launch. They travel at 35m/s just like any other projectile.

To quote the recent meta change post, "he's not that good". I would expect Art to take at least a portion of the blast and be incapacitated if not killed. The strike was aimed and landed at basically Art's head level. He's not wearing a helmet and that would be a problem in this case.

Thoughts?

If I may address this, I'm going to pull up a quote that pretty much sums up Critas's entire last post: "Scanning the two at the other end of the hallway, Artarion kept his attention on both of the figures, watching their movements. He allowed himself to fall into he Force, augmenting his senses and heightening his reactions. "

His prior round is focused on absolutely nothing offensive and is 100% focused on 1) watching you and 2) using the Force to prepare to dodge.

Your argument seems to say that within 10 meters wrist rockets are 100% guaranteed to be either instant KOs or kills because even though the entire prior round was spent preparing to avoid it, it is still unavoidable. That argument seems to violate this rule: "Any attack must be able to be countered unless the situation prevents it OR you have approached the end of a duel."

If he were trying to react to an attack while making an attack of his own from an entirely unprepared point (i.e. not spending the prior round watching for an attack and preparing to dodge it) then I would certainly have to agree he's not that good. (An example of this would be the big Mando vs IR thread where Demolly was taken down by a wrist rocket because she was doing other things). However, in this instance, he's doing absolutely nothing for two entire rounds except dodging the attack, which is an entirely different story. This isn't a haphazard attempt to dodge at the last moment but a previously prepared action.

 

[Lucid]

No, it's not haphazard but the timing is still jacked up. Art is only level 1. Certainly he may have spent a good amount of time prepping to dodge an attack but that does not mean he can do so in under half a second. While I'm not expecting it to kill him outright, serious injury is more than on the table and also more than likely. If he were higher level, I'd have less of an issue.

Like I said his face is exposed without a helmet. Escaping a laege damage is not possible I don't think. Not with the timing in the posts.

@Phoenix @critaa

 

[Phoenix]

No, it's not haphazard but the timing is still jacked up. Art is only level 1. Certainly he may have spent a good amount of time prepping to dodge an attack but that does not mean he can do so in under half a second. While I'm not expecting it to kill him outright, serious injury is more than on the table and also more than likely. If he were higher level, I'd have less of an issue.

Like I said his face is exposed without a helmet. Escaping a laege damage is not possible I don't think. Not with the timing in the posts.

@Phoenix @critaa

You still haven't really address the fact that you're treating this as an insta win attack: an un-counterable attack as it were, which is specifically prohibited. This wasn't you out maneuvering him or doing something to back him into a corner, merely pressing a single button and he is expected to be KOed despite an entire round of prior preparation.

I don't want to get into nitty gritty numbers, but he's only having to cover 1/4 of the distance of the rocket (3m vs 12m). With "Jedi reflexes" that are completely focused on dodging an attack he's wouldn't even have to move at maximum human sprinting speed IRL (12.5 m/s) to cover 3 meters in the time it would take a rocket to travel 12 meters at 35 m/s. Granted, he's having to have faster reflexes than a real person, but his entire prior round is focused on using the Force to do precisely that. Yes, I agree it's beyond what a normal person could do... that's why he's using the Force to do it.

Anyway, I'm guessing we aren't going to agree on this, so I think you should probably go ahead and report it

Addendum: After thinking about this more, I realized that even my estimates for how far Critas has to dodge were overestimated in favor of the Rebel side. The rocket is being fired at the wall behind him, and at no point is he detailed as being up against the wall, meaning he actually only has to dodge 2ish meters because he's likely already a meter or so away from the impact point

 

[Rom]

I have just a few questions I want to work through.

So, if I'm reading this post right, why isn't @Critas getting pegged in the back by the heavy blaster bolt? He's bolting with the Force from the side of the corridor back down the corridor behind Phoenix away from the side to escape the radius of the blast. A'ro fired as Dan triggered his own attack because he recognized the significance of him leading with his free hand - hence the "Oh kriff."

Phoenix stepped to the side which means the heavy bolt passed him unimpeded; directly into the path that Caritas would be fleeing into with his back turned toward the incoming bolt after he turned to run from the wrist rocket.

Edit: after speaking with Phoe my confusion on his defense and the timing is rectified! Thanks mate @Phoenix

@Phoenix @Lucid @Critas

 

[Phoenix]

I have just a few questions I want to work through.

So, if I'm reading this post right, why isn't @Critas getting pegged in the back by the heavy blaster bolt? He's bolting with the Force from the side of the corridor back down the corridor behind Phoenix away from the side to escape the radius of the blast. A'ro fired as Dan triggered his own attack because he recognized the significance of him leading with his free hand - hence the "Oh kriff."

Phoenix stepped to the side which means the heavy bolt passed him unimpeded; directly into the path that Caritas would be fleeing into with his back turned toward the incoming bolt after he turned to run from the wrist rocket.

Edit: after speaking with Phoe my confusion on his defense and the timing is rectified! Thanks mate @Phoenix

@Phoenix @Lucid @Critas

I know there was some confusion about this. As per our convo @Rom Crit will be making edits to make it clearer that he's running to the right not down the hall

 

[Lucid]

Post has been reported as per above convert between myself and @Phoenix.

 

[Critas]

Updated as requested. @Rom

 

[Arcangel]

Offical Ruling: The defense is viable. Art does however take some minor damage. His back armor saves him from any serious damage to his vitals, but does catch a couple pieces of shrapnel at the edge of the blast, damaging it. Likewise his left arm is grazed by a zinging piece of shrapnel, slicing it painfully and causing some bleeding. The wound is minor and is not debilitating.

With a full round of watching, preparing, and enhancing his own reflexes, Art is able to use force speed to bolt out of the radius of the wrist rocket. He does however take some minor damage, but nothing that should affect his ability to fight.

@Critas has 24 hours to make edits addressing the damages. If edits are not made within that time period the attack as written is considered an autohit. @Lucid and @Rom have 44 hours remaining in their round following the timestamp on the edits made notification post.

Tech note: We will be reviewing wrist rocket usage in pvp going forward - they are never intended to be an instant win button.

@Phoenix

 

[Critas]

Edit made lets continue with the fun! :)

 

[Lucid]

OK. Here is why my turn works. Critas wrote his attacks as coming from behind, however, at no point did he make a movement that would have crossed Daniel's line to bring him behind. Nor did Daniel take an action that would have his back turned to Critas in a way that would have his sword out of the way of the attacks.

Let's break down the positioning as written. From Critas' previous post:

Artarion took a step back from his attacker, finishing his movement and he would end up on the right side of his target.

As written this has Artarion stepping back and to his left as he intended to end up towards Daniel's right. There was no mention of a forward movement to bring him across Daniel's diagonal strafe.

From my post following:

Daniel was stepping to the right and out on a diagonal. His disruptor came up and, as his swift movement carried him off on a tangent to the pillar--sword trailing behind, ready to fend of a counter from the lesser Sith

Daniel didn't turn his body, he stepped out sideways, as Artorian stepped back and to his left.

As written that would make the planned (and executed actions) look like this:

At the point in question, where Artorian comes back to strike at Daniel, Daniel is still moving to bring his disruptor in line with Varyn. Critas' attack post had him interrupting Daniel's movement before he dropped his sword to trigger the flamethrower. At that point, Daniel's sword is still up and ready to defend from Artorian. Daniel had made no alterations to the angle of his body, meaning that Artorian would still be clearly visible and he would see him move.

With Artorian's action taking him backward and to his left, with Daniel's diagonal line opposing, their distance would remain the same. Daniel never stopped moving and by Critas' own post, Artorian backed off and to the left. With Artorian still clearly in Daniel's line of sight and his attack, as per the written positioning, would have to come at Daniel's left side. Daniel saw it coming, abandoned his attack on Varyn, though Varyn would have still watched him come into view as per the timing of the posts and started his own movement, and countered Artorian's strike which was clarified OOC as a reverse scissor with the blades crossed to snap open.

Daniel's movement and turn into his strike along with the elbow bend of his arm would but the disruptor clearly in line with Artorian's head at the time it would discharge.

@Rom @Critas @Phoenix

 

[Phoenix]

So there are some issues with your post @Lucid. When I had asked you to post in the OOC to clarify positioning about the questions you had, I didn't realize that you were going to make an IC post too, and for your sake I kind of wish you hadn't. Any subjectivity or question about the positioning was just locked in by you posting....

1) Your/Critas's positioning as you explained it is partially correct, but also misinterpreted: something we could have discussed had you not gone ahead and posted, but as I said, any subjectivity is now locked in as being how Critas interpreted it.

Artarion took a step back from his attacker, finishing his movement and he would end up on the right side of his target.

Yes, on Daniel's right side. Not right and in front of him or right and behind him. On his right. At his 3 o'clock. Your diagram has them standing in front of each other for some reason, which isn't what the posts say.

Daniel was stepping to the right and out on a diagonal. His disruptor came up and, as his swift movement carried him off on a tangent to the pillar--sword trailing behind, ready to fend of a counter from the lesser Sith

And then you stepped diagonal. Part of that being to the right and part of that being forward, which puts Critas now at your 4 o'clock or on Dan's right flank and slightly behind him. So the positioning is as Critas stated, and any wiggle room you had to debate that went out the window when you locked it in to exploit what you thought was a mistake by Critas.

2) Now we come to the actual movements of your sword. Your sword is on the far side of your body per your own post. It is in your left hand and behind you ("sword trailing behind"), which puts it at your 8 o'clock at least. You're managing to 1) identify Critas's attack and 2) bring your sword all the way around your entire body in the time that it takes Critas to slash right in front of him? Even for a level 2 I think that's past what's reasonable. Idk if you intended to put it at your 8 o'clock, but that's what you wrote.

3) Even if you manage to bring your sword around in time, your post doesn't really adequately block the lower strike. The blades are a scissor attack at your neck and your waist, which means you have to force Critas's resisting left blade down the entire length of a torso (1-2 feet) faster than Critas can swing an unobstructed blade across your waist. There's no way that's possible, and this means that the lower strike is moving completely unimpeded and just cut you in half. I reported this particular part under autohit rules so that the defense cannot be altered now that this has been pointed out.

4) Even your own timing in your prior posts and this post seems to contradict each other. In the prior post your disruptor is firing immediately when Varyn comes into sight (so much so that you argued Varyn couldn't block it), which would be precisely the same time you step forward. With Critas's attack coming after you've stepped forward, the gun would already have fired, and certainly not time to completely redirect your aim to strike Critas. The charge time seems to be lengthening and shortening based on what is most convenient for you at the moment, which I don't think is how that works.

I'm sure you'll want to make a rebuttal post, but given the report for inadequate defense, the posting timers are on hold now.

 

[Lucid]

@Phoenix

The understanding of positioning that I had, and that I maintain, is that the actions would put both Daniel's sword and Artorian at his 8 o'clock or left hand side as he travels on a diagonal out and forward. I don't understand what you're reading that says anything about Artorian moving to end up at Daniel's 3 o'clock. They were head on when their swords me, Artorian stepped back and his left, no mention was made about crossing Daniel's line to get to his other side. Without that I cannot accept that that is his position. Artorian's swords are crossed on top of eachother to move outward as per critas' confirmation over discord. A downward strike would force them down and to bind momentarily. I don't see an autohit issue here.

Regarding "trailing behind" it was also stated that it was up and ready, trailing behind only meant that it was behind Daniel's motion. I have stated clearly the positioning as it has been written and you have stated how you see it. I don't agree with your understanding and posted to exploit after confirmation of how the strikes were being executed against Daniel. A mistake was made somewhere in the understanding of position.

My timing is fine. Again, you wrote your movement as Daniel moved out of sight which would have been as he started to move out on the diagonal, and that's fine. The moment that critas made to move Daniel went to counter. Since Critas' strikes were timed to land during the charging of the disruptor there is time for me to bring it around and have it discharge as I move to intercept the strikes. If you look closely at how everything was stated. Dan blocks with the sword while turning and, because it would not be quick enough just to try and bring his arm around, bends his elbow to bring Critas' head in line.

 

[Phoenix]

@Phoenix

The understanding of positioning that I had, and that I maintain, is that the actions would put both Daniel's sword and Artorian at his 8 o'clock or left hand side as he travels on a diagonal out and forward. I don't understand what you're reading that says anything about Artorian moving to end up at Daniel's 3 o'clock. They were head on when their swords me, Artorian stepped back and his left, no mention was made about crossing Daniel's line to get to his other side. Without that I cannot accept that that is his position. Artorian's swords are crossed on top of eachother to move outward as per critas' confirmation over discord. A downward strike would force them down and to bind momentarily. I don't see an autohit issue here.

The two start out squared up, then Critas wrote this in post 14:

"Their blades met and the resistance slowed the blade just enough to allow the Sith to step to his own left [this would be Daniel's right side] as the Mandalorian's sword skidded off to the right side and down to the floor"

And then clarifies:

"Artarion took a step back from his attacker, finishing his movement and he would end up on the right side of his target."

Putting him on Daniel's right side. So yes, it's clearly spelled out that he is on Daniel's right side... twice.

 

[Lucid]

The two start out squared up, then Critas wrote this in post 14:

"Their blades met and the resistance slowed the blade just enough to allow the Sith to step to his own left [this would be Daniel's right side] as the Mandalorian's sword skidded off to the right side and down to the floor"

And then clarifies:

"Artarion took a step back from his attacker, finishing his movement and he would end up on the right side of his target."

Putting him on Daniel's right side. So yes, it's clearly spelled out that he is on Daniel's right side... twice.

Not really, if you look at the timing, Dan was already moving as critas tried to take that initial step. Their blades connected and Dan bailed out. His sword didn't go the ground, he connected, stepped out and moved. Artorian stepped left as Daniel was moving then backed off and again to the left. It keeps him on the 8 o'clock side no matter how you cut it.

 

[Phoenix]

Their blades connected and Dan bailed out. His sword didn't go the ground, he connected, stepped out and moved.

No, he didn't. And I will quote to you not only from Critas's post, but also your own post.

Critas's post 14: "Their blades met and the resistance slowed the blade just enough to allow the Sith to step to his own left as the Mandalorian's sword skidded off to the right side and down to the floor, his own momentum and the weight behind his attack causing him to be thrown off balance. Artarion took a step back from his attacker, finishing his movement and he would end up on the right side of his target."

Your post 15: "His sword skated off the Sith's as he moved. Even as his opponent started to move back, Daniel was stepping to the right and out on a diagonal."

You describe your blade doing exactly what Critas's post said it would do even if it didn't go all the way to the ground. You describe Daniel moving forward, not backing off as you're now asserting. Then you explicitly acknowledge that Art took the step back and nowhere contest that he stepped to the left side. Please stop trying to OOC rewrite your posts now that they have put you in a bad position. You are directly contradicting what you wrote, and unless you provide direct quotes, I'm not going to buy that.

Anyway, this conversation is going nowhere and I've repeatedly provided you with textual evidence of the positioning that you're denying, and you're not doing the same. I'm just going to let the ruling decide.

 

[Lucid]

Daniel was stepping to the right and out on a diagonal.

@Phoenix You provided it for me. It was stated clearly that he stepped out. I'm not trying to twist my own posts, I stand by what I did which is why I posted. I understand that you're upset that you've misunderstood positioning and perhaps guided critas into a critical error. If Daniel had been stationary, it would be a different story and you'd have a larger leg to stand on. He is moving continuously and quickly.

His sword skated off the Sith's as he moved.

Skated off as Daniel moved out and on his line. All critas' post states is that he stepped left then back then somehow crossed Daniel's line as he completed his movement as Daniel was moving directly across critas very quickly. At this point we're beating a dead horse and I'm sorry that this OOC has become hostile. We should both have known better. I think waiting for the ruling is the best option at this time.

 

[Loco]

Ruling: Daniel avoids being beheaded, but is bisected by Artarion's blow to the midsection instead. The disruptor shot goes off half way into his transition from one target to the other and strikes no one.

When I read the OOC, this report seemed a lot more complicated than it ended up being. Going strictly by what was written, rather than what was interpreted or intended by either party, Daniel is far too close to Artarion at the time of the latter's attack for his defense and counter attack to be effective, regardless of level advantage. This is partially because of the positioning, but mostly because Daniel seems to have misread the attack against him- Art's blades are at different levels, so even if Dan made contact with Art's top blade, he wouldn't be able to drive it down far enough fast enough to block the lower blade (the one bisecting him) before it did its damage. Because Dan's counterattack with the disruptor pistol would depend on that block being successful due to the positioning, it also fails.

As always, this ruling is final.

@Phoenix @Rom @Critas @Lucid

 

[Rom]

@Phoenix @Critas

Can I get some clarification as to where everyone is? Did Artorians attack bring him closer to Varyn and A'ro with Dan's bisected body behind them, or is Dan still equidistant between Varyn and Artorian, but cut in twain?