Force Powers

[Jinan B]

So, I'm sure that this is a thing that the Admins are already aware of, and potentially have already discussed the moved on from, but I figured that I'd put this up so that the clueless me (me) could figure out what was really happening here.

So basically I've seen quite a bit of talk about Force powers this timeline, and how they're really not that great, even to the point where to be a force user you need to be using a ton of tech anyway to be competitive. Personally I agree that the Force seems to be pretty substandard in the system.

So my question is really like, is this something that the staff are willing to talk about really? Or is it something that you've all already discussed and decided not to change.

One possible suggestion I heard on the Jedi chat, if you wanna hear it, is limiting how much tech Force Users can have in order for them to have decent force powers or smth. Just wanted to put that out there.

Thanks :)

 

[GABA]

Briefly, since I am on my phone, but yes it's currently in discussion, we know there is an issue with tech balancing in PvP situations where we are seeing regardless of force powers, it's more like who has the better tech.

 

[Rom]

Even worse than the tech balancing though is the fact that Force Users *have* to use Technology in PvP in order to be competitive and forestall accusations that they should be exhausted and incapable of using the Force or fighting effectively after using telekinesis or acrobatics or force lightning or whatever else.

In no way should a Jedi or Sith writer need to gear up on every situational tech or tech counter in order to be an able combatant or have accusations of exhaustion thrown at them. Mea culpa, but its the only way to operate in the system as it is. Just the easiest example I can think of off the top of my head; Jedi are trained since they could hold a lightsaber to sense and deflect laser bolts without their vision, but every person with an XPC says that the flash of light will blind them and prevent them from being able to dissipate any shots, so to counter that arbitrary limit on the Force they wear a helmet with Adaptive polarization.

Problem solved, but the Jedi/Sith aren't acting as Jedi/Sith. They're mandalorians wielding laser swords who can occasionally use telekinetic abilities, usually to their own detriment.

 

[FinnSimmons]

This discussion should not be held behind closed doors but rather out in the open. That goes for most things admin related. Transparency helps. I have admined enough gaming groups and clans to know that keeping things secret only irritates people.

Back to topic: Star Wars is more or less equal to the Force. Its the one special thing it has. Jedi and Sith is certainly the first thing that comes to mind when thinking about SW. Having that integral part reduced to the status of accessory and even made a hindrance is contradictory to the very concept of 'space magic'. The reasons might have been there at times to limit it but by now it has clearly gone too far and the rules have been phrased not specific enough and with too much room left for interpretation. That issue should be addressed.

I don't even think the rules need to change all that much. It's more the wording and less the intention behind them.

Not the first time I said this but nobody cares about what I say anyways, so good luck with our thing and stuff.

 

[Dmitri]

I'm not going to support transparency or closed-door, as I want to stress something: There is nothing wrong with talking to admins about rules that you feel need change. You could PM or, heck, post them in this thread. You will (most likely) not get a warning, infraction, or warning for such dialogue as long as you keep the discussion respectful and professional. We aren't infallible, and the rules aren't either. If you have concerns, voice them. However, I will note that admins aren't required to use member-considerations either, so please don't think that just because we're listening that we're going to always do what members would like. That doesn't mean we disregard members' views or opinions, it's that we have to look at several factors and sometimes that means saying no.

 

[Wit]

I totally agree that the Force needed some regulation after the sort of things that it was used to pull off last timeline. But at the same time Star Wars is about the Force. For me RPing in a Star Wars setting means writing a Force user. You can go on about SW actually being about good vs evil, and whatnot, but as a kid I was drawn to awesome Space Wizards who wielded laser swords. And right now, as an average to below average PvPer, I can't think of putting my character into a fight relying on the Force alone. The Force should be more potent, of course there has to be a limit, but right now the limit seems to be set too low.

 

[Green Ranger]

I'm going to quote the thread I made at the start of the timeline introducing everyone to the new approach to Force Powers, because given the arguments here I think it's hugely relevant.

http://www.thestarwarsrp.com/forum/index.php?threads/force-powers.63839/

I've pulled a few key quotes from the thread and added them below as well. A lot of them are from me, but there are a few in there that aren't, Apologies for not crediting where due but the thread's locked so I can't just quote copy/paste:

At the bottom of this post, you'll find our guide to the Force, which will basically be our own site-based resource for acceptable usage of the Force going forward. We've done this for a few reasons, but maybe the biggest one for me was this: in the Think Tank, in coming up with this list, we compiled lists of Force powers from Wookieepedia. This turned out to be a massive undertaking, since Wookieepedia's lists of Force Powers, all up, is roughly about 450 articles we'd have to trawl through, analyze and rule on as to whether it was allowed or not. Considering a lot of those powers are minor variations on broader 'umbrella' powers ie telekinesis, it's inefficient to work off a list like that...and it's also counter-intuitive for us to use a hard-list resource like that as well, because...well most veteran members don't actually use it anyway.

The thing is, with the Force, once you let go of the ideas of specific powers or spells, it becomes a lot more interesting, both to write and to discuss. When you broaden the Force to broad descriptions rather than simple, categorized powers, then you gain the benefits of versatility, a better resource to write about, and you're also writing more accurately to the idea of the Force in the first place, and that's what we want the Force to be about for everyone - exploring a broad, immensely powerful and infinitely mysterious energy, and all the innumerable ways a Force user - any Force user - could potentially harness such a power.

So you'll notice in the write-up below that we're moving away from definite categorizations and moving into a far vaguer approach to the Force. We're really excited about this change, and we're hoping that it inspires all of you to explore the Force more freely as well, and really let those creative juices flow. But we've also got some rules around it as well.

There are a lot of other side benefits from making such a small, but important, distinction.

I suppose the one most obvious to everyone is that it goes a long way towards nerfing or balancing the Force, which was something we were keenly aware of when working on this. The idea that power require so much concentration, that using the Force is so mentally taxing, actually goes a long way towards achieving that goal. Now, I'm sure someone at some point will argue that the Force is more OP as a result of these changes, which is why I'm bringing this point up now, but while we've expanded the toolbox any Force user has available, we've also made it much easier to disrupt, interrupt and avoid Force usage across the board. This is infinitely more practical than, say, a list of disallowed powers, because anyone with half a brain could still have used even the most rudimentary of Force techniques to overcome the limitations of such a list, so the Force would still be pretty unbalanced. When you introduce the idea that Force usage can actually be interrupted by breaking concentration, however, it nerfs all powers, across the board, and encourages players to use simpler, less intensive Force usage. I think most players will find that extravagence in PvP with the Force is actually detrimental to their survival, so it'll help ensure the memberbase sort of...self-nerfs in practice to maintain their stamina and keep powers as efficient as possible when they're used. So that's kind of cool.

The other thing I like about this is it actually encourages more Force users to actually engage in combat. We've had a lot of prominent Force users - myself included - who rely solely on the Force in combat because 1) it's more versatile, 2) it's easy to bypass pretty much any defence, and 3) there are no real drawbacks for using it. With usage of the Force now much more prone to disruption, and the system itself encouraging more finesse rather than grandiose demonstrations of power, it makes the lightsaber relevant again, which is something I feel has been lacking in the RP of late. So I'm looking forward to some epic lightsaber duels in the future as well. ;)

I think again that is such a contextual thing. By these rules you would need to apply a certain amount of focus to do exact damage to a complex object like a Jetpack with the Force. Either affecting its controls by applying the Force to it that way or crushing the entire tech both requiring an extreme amount of Focus or Concentration in my opinion. Not only would the user be moving quickly but they'd be fighting the Jedi/Sith. A power like crush I would put under the drop everything and Focus entirely on the pressure around the combatant to destroy the Jetpack. This would leave your character wide open to a blaster bolt or some other attack. Whereas you hold your ground and focus to deflect bolts back at the user and happen to strike the jetpack disabling it.

Remember this is more a Force discussion than just PvP. Being on the offensive when the Force requires concentration will now be a challenge; as it should be.

Another question; how does resisting Force powers work if it is possible? If someone uses Force Choke/telekinesis/etc. on me is there nothing I can do to avoid its effect?

If you're a Force user? Knock them down with the Force, or use the Force to weaken the grip, allowing air to flow. Throw a lightsaber or, in the case of, say, a telekinetic wave, jump out of the way.

If you're not a Force user? Lob a grenade. Grab a sidearm and shoot at them. If they're close enough, just kick them etc. The moment their mind is on something else, you're free basically.

Personally I don't want to get too restricting off the bat with Force Powers - part of the reason I kept things so vague and open is, admittedly, a test for the community, to see if you guys can not only self-regulate proper use, but also to be responsible and avoid being tempted to use powers cheaply. That's part of why the rules on fair use and metagaming seem, at first glance, fairly loose - there's enough there for you guys to really be creative, but there's also enough there for the staff to pull you up on it if you go too far. It's sort of a 'enough rope to hang yourself with if you're silly about it' kind of deal.

This was 100% intentional, because really, these rules are a test for you guys - we want to see if you can be responsible with such an open set of guidelines before we consider imposing more restrictions. Ideally I'd love it if the rules, as currently phrased, were used responsibly and we didn't have to crack down, but at the same time I'm also fully aware that there's a decent chance that we'll have to set harder rules in, say, six months time once we've got a solid idea whether or not people are abusing the current rules on Force usage.

So basically what I'm saying here is that this type of freer use of the Force, and whether we keep it in the long term (which I'd personally love, since I've more or less been arguing for creative freedom with the Force for ten years now >.>), is something that the broader community will determine. So pleaaaase be responsible about it, and try to help each other out in self-moderating this.

I was going to write a whole speel about my original vision for Force Powers and what I imagined it should be handled like in comparison to where it is now, but honestly that thread pretty much says almost everything I want to anyway.

 

[Raydo]

This may differ from the views of others, but I don't agree with the "Woe is me (Force User)" view of the rules. Perhaps a little clarification is needed, but I don't even think much of that is needed.

It is left vague, giving freedom to the write to be creative (Not read "OP). The rules clearly state that excessive use of the Force could lead to exhaustion. To me, this makes sense. If the rule read "Excessive use of running could lead to exhaustion" no one would have a problem with it. Obviously a runner is going to be able to run further than some nerd who pretends to bomb Jedi temples all day. The Force should be the same way.

I like the simpler view of the Force. There were times where the Force felt a little "gamey" to me last TL and I think the adjustments went a long way to steer us away from that.

If anything, I think we could go back to a simpler view of tech. I get that some people find enjoyment out of making up tech, but I think specific tech write ups should be more about flavor than combat effectiveness. A blaster pistol is a blaster pistol is a blaster pistol. Throughout the movies, tv shows, and books there are myriad different type of guns that give them their own unique flavor and feel, but in the end, they are are basically broken down into a few categories. Whether you an Imperial Officer with a sleek side arm, or Cad Bane with two revolvers - they basically are be same but give their owners different flavors.

As far as I understood, the intention was to keep both tech and the force simplified at the beginning of the timeline (maybe I am wrong). I think we should push more for that - when we aren't worrying about getting bogged down in specifics and keep things simple it turns PvP into a battle of creativity and not how has the shiniest of things. This also helps to avoid "Best in Slot" choices for tech and lets non-FS users have more freedom when it comes to how their character looks and feels.

Below I included a clip of my favorite battle in TCW. Cad Bane fights two highly powerful Jedi, and does so with enough tech to make it cool (about four pieces) but it is all pretty generic (Two Pistols, Bolas, Flame thrower, Jet boots).

In the end, It would be nice to see some variety in fights and not "Supernova Gernade into XPC Rifle" spam like I have seen a couple of times.

tl;dr - Keep both the force and tech simple.

Hopefully this wasn't considered too off topic.

 

[Green Ranger]

This may differ from the views of others, but I don't agree with the "Woe is me (Force User)" view of the rules. Perhaps a little clarification is needed, but I don't even think much of that is needed.

It is left vague, giving freedom to the write to be creative (Not read "OP). The rules clearly state that excessive use of the Force could lead to exhaustion. To me, this makes sense. If the rule read "Excessive use of running could lead to exhaustion" no one would have a problem with it. Obviously a runner is going to be able to run further than some nerd who pretends to bomb Jedi temples all day. The Force should be the same way.

I like the simpler view of the Force. There were times where the Force felt a little "gamey" to me last TL and I think the adjustments went a long way to steer us away from that.

If anything, I think we could go back to a simpler view of tech. I get that some people find enjoyment out of making up tech, but I think specific tech write ups should be more about flavor than combat effectiveness. A blaster pistol is a blaster pistol is a blaster pistol. Throughout the movies, tv shows, and books there are myriad different type of guns that give them their own unique flavor and feel, but in the end, they are are basically broken down into a few categories. Whether you an Imperial Officer with a sleek side arm, or Cad Bane with two revolvers - they basically are be same but give their owners different flavors.

As far as I understood, the intention was to keep both tech and the force simplified at the beginning of the timeline (maybe I am wrong). I think we should push more for that - when we aren't worrying about getting bogged down in specifics and keep things simple it turns PvP into a battle of creativity and not how has the shiniest of things. This also helps to avoid "Best in Slot" choices for tech and lets non-FS users have more freedom when it comes to how their character looks and feels.

Below I included a clip of my favorite battle in TCW. Cad Bane fights two highly powerful Jedi, and does so with enough tech to make it cool (about four pieces) but it is all pretty generic (Two Pistols, Bolas, Flame thrower, Jet boots).

In the end, It would be nice to see some variety in fights and not "Supernova Gernade into XPC Rifle" spam like I have seen a couple of times.

tl;dr - Keep both the force and tech simple.

Hopefully this wasn't considered too off topic.

The two goals aren't mutually exclusive, and tech's the other side of the coin, so I think you're right to bring it up tbh. In fact, the combination of the comments by you about tech here and what other people, including myself, have said about the Force, is basically where the timeline started.

TBH I think the way i worded the write-up on Force Powers regarding exhaustion probably led to one of the largest misunderstandings responsible for the rules shifting over time. Where the common perception now is frequent use of the Force will create exhaustion (and that this is an exploitable issue especially in OOC discussions), it was largely and primarily meant to exist as a way for staff members to more easily moderate Force usage - ie if someone tried something that was obviously ludicrous or stupidly OP, a mod or admin could rule that the power simply failed and nothing happened due to fatigue, rather than waste time getting people to constantly rewrite.

Of course, the perception of exhaustion after any use took hold, and it was over-emphasized within the community to the nth degree, and now Force users struggle to use powers consecutively without being reported, so I think this is a major problem area atm, to which there's a simple fix, and that's that people need to stop playing the exhaustion card after like...2-3 rounds of combat. It might come up at the end of the two week period if everyone's been posting quickly and you've used the Force in every post, but really that should be about the only time it's brought up - the blatantly excessive minority of cases, as opposed to just...every case of Force usage.

My other main recommendation would be to throw out the handbook on Force powers and go back to using the site guide philosophy of 'fuck the strict, spell-like powers and let people be creative with the Force again,' but since I wrote it that could just be my ego talking. >.>

As for simple tech? Fuck. Yes. Tech's gone back to last timeline's style and standards. No offence to you folks who handle and approve tech, of course, but I sometimes feel like what Clayton wrote in the rules (or maybe it's more accurate to say the intent of the rules and guides) isn't really being adhered to, and everyone - both the mods and the members submitting tech - have defaulted back to the comfort zone of last timeline's tech. And last timelines' tech was sometimes ridiculous enough even with Force Users as OP as they were. Now with Force Users being nerfed into the ground and last timeline's standards of tech being used, the scales of balance have been completely thrown out.

 

[FinnSimmons]

I don't really want to say much about the tech side of things. I personally don't care at all for all the tech that clearly aims to be used against force users. Still I will try and leave that discussion to others.

When it comes to the Force rules I am of the opinion that clearly phrased rules that are very specific in what they say possibly even give examples of how to read them would make the understanding of said rules - and the intent behind them - much easier for both the players that have been here a while and the members that have only recently joined us.

The rule III-E for example could need some clarification.

E. You are not permitted to use Force Powers against a non-Force user if the non-Force user is unable to counter that attack. However, almost all of the powers can be used against non-Force users.

Here it is stated that you can not use a Force Power against a non-Force user if he is unable to counter it. That basically means almost every direct force power in the book.

At the same time the second sentence states that “almost all of the powers can be used against non-Force users.”

Which can not be true because of the first sentence.

Look at it from a purely objective standpoint. All force powers that can not be easily evaded or can not be evaded at all can not be countered by a non-Force user and therefore are forbidden. Which is basically most/all of the direct force powers you could use. Leaving only the indirect ones. Who are really just another form of weapons fire at this point. So powers like force push and pull and force lightning are turned into a shotgun. One with a a large spread and a terrible range according to recent rulings made by @GABAroo .

This to me is very undecided. Either we get to use Force Powers against none force users - in which case telling us exactly what is okay or and what is not okay to do would be the way to go - or it is completely forbidden. In the last case the rule would completely and finally gut the force. Which I thing nobody really wants in a Star Wars RP forum.

(This just because someone said that my earlier admonition about this specific rule could have done with some more explanation.)

 

[Raydo]

I think this is clarified a bit in the next section of the rules.

E. Any attack must be able to be countered unless you have approached the end of a duel. You cannot simply walk into a thread and kill someone instantly. Everyone should be given the chance to defend themselves after every move. Whether or not they are able to think of a defense is up to their own imagination.
I. You may not post things such as “and he shot his opponent in the head” because that gives your opponent virtually no chance of survival and you would be controlling another character. The best way to say something like this is to say that “he shot towards his opponent's head” or "he shot at his opponent's head", as that outlines the intent of an action, rather than dictate it. This is an important distinction and should be adhered to at all times in combat.

The Force should be no different that any other aspect of combat. Everything you do has to contain the possibility of being dealt with. Now, currently people only interpret that has an interrupting and completely negating ones attack. While there is nothing wrong with that, it has been stated in several rulings (Though I couldn't find it in the actual rules) that players should take fair hits throughout the fight.

The spirit of the your quoted rules on Force Usage are to prevent you from auto killing someone with the Force. An example of someone using "Force Push / Pull" ect on you - Say it pushes you back and while falling backgrounds you roll and find your footing again. This response satisfies the rules of both Force Usage and Combat. You have taken the hit, but countered the attack due to finding your footing.

I think being more specific can be dangerous because it locks people into "Do this because its the best way" where as if it is left less specific, it allows both sides to be creative and find their own solutions creatively

 

[FinnSimmons]

The Force should be no different that any other aspect of combat.

See, I think this is the wrong approach. Because the force is not a weapon like a blaster. It is very much not a conventional weapon so it needs to be treated differently than those. The existence of specific Force Rules already seems to imply that not only I see it that way.
Also the force is the defining 'thing' of Star Wars. To deprive the forum of the force as it is seen in the movies and understood by most as fans, as “the greatest power in the galaxy” goes against the very decision to play in a Star Wars setting. And as far as I am concerned it also says somewhere that “this will never be questioned”. The intention behind that sentence to me seems to be to make a statement regarding the Force being special. Meaning not the same as everything else. And clearly not the same as a blaster.

Currently though the force is treated no different than a sawed-off shotgun. Are we going to continue on this path untill the force is really only usable in PvE and as story telling fluff or are we going to find a good middle ground?

Like I said and you confirmed: right now the rules prevent the use of any direct attack with a force power simply because every attack needs to be counter able.
I am not sure we are thinking the same here. Because the way I understand counter able in this context it means that the 'victim' needs to be able to counter the attack. Not evade, not dodge, but counter. E.g. the force Power Combustion would be not counter able by the non-Force user and therefore it would not be okay to use.

This also goes for powers like Force speed, Mindtrick, Force cloak/stealth, Force stun, Force blind, Force slow, Morichro, Malacia, Force drain, Shatterpoint and certainly other, less known powers.

As long as III-E remains the way it is everybody can use it to argue their case.

If we leave the rule like this only indirect Force Powers can be used at all. Telekinesis is reduced to things like Force push and pull (aka sawed-off shotgun) and actually levitating someone would require their willingness to let it happen. Even force speed if used like in the movies would mean that there is basically no counter to the attack since the Jedi would be too fast for the non-Force user. So yes, this rule does need clarification. It needs to be made clear that if you are a non-Force user and the Jedi decides to pick you up with telekinesis and slams you into the next wall, that this kind of thing is either okay or not. Similar decisions need to be made for the common force powers. Otherwise using the force in any creative way will not only be hindered but discouraged by the fact that anyone can use III-E to simply state that there is no real defense against the power and therefore it is a violation of the rules. This will provoke unnecessary arguments that could easily be prevented by amending the rule and stating once and forever what is alright to do and what not. With new problems that arise the rule could constantly be amended and Force Powers would become ever more balanced over time.

The force simply has too many facets to be handled by a very, very broadly phrased, two sentence rule.

 

[Raydo]

The other side of that coin is that becuase the Force has so many facets, breaking it down to a specific "This okay. This isn't okay" would be impossible.

Combat is combat whether it's worth the Force or with a gun. The combat rules regarding the Force are being called into question, not the claim that the Force is greatest power in the Galaxy.

When you label every Force Power and outline the "stats" and "limitations" (ie Force Lightning does x amount of damage, a range of y, and cool down of z) of that power, this ceases to be freeform RP and becomes more of a poorly designed text based MMO.

I see where you are coming from, but the clarification is already thertheree. To answer your hypothetical scenario: The answer is the the Jedi is certainly allowed to hurl your character into a wall becuase you can respond to that. What is prohibited is a player using the Force to auto kill your character or god mode them to death.

*On my phone, may not be as clear as I'd like it to be.

 

[FinnSimmons]

I see where you are coming from, but the clarification is already thertheree. To answer your hypothetical scenario: The answer is the the Jedi is certainly allowed to hurl your character into a wall becuase you can respond to that. What is prohibited is a player using the Force to auto kill your character or god mode them to death.

And at this point we wholeheartedly disagree. Because that is not there and its not clear.
Somehow it must be made easily understandable for everybody. Not through rulings that after a while get burred in the depths of the OOC but by amending the rules. If only to keep everything neatly organized in one Rules thread.
The level of specificity that is needed to achieve this might not be as you described it. For it was you who brought up stats and numbers, not me. I simply asked for clarification. And maybe we can even find a way to make it so that we don't have to actually go into every Force Power but find a way to formulate a rule that covers how most of them can or can not be used. This can encompass a certain principle, that had to be applied or something else. It does not have to be Force power x does y and had a cool-down of z posts. That would be ridiculous.

 

[Raydo]

Well we can atleast agree it would be ridiculous : )

Maybe I just don't quite understand what needs to be clarified, but I might be able to understand why you and I would have a better understanding than a newer member who could possibly benefit from such things.

Perhaps there is a middle ground I don't see (thats why the staff makes the big bucks) and I trust whatever the staff comes up with will make the site better.

 

[Green Ranger]

The rule III-E for example could need some clarification.

^ That's simple enough to exaplain IMHO. Last timeline we had a flat ban on moved that couldn't be directly blocked or avoided by a non-Force user - prime example being Choke. Now with the Force being able to be disrupted and requiring large amounts of concentration, an effective counter to it is to basically shoot the Jedi/Sith dude(ette) - he or she has to focus so much on using the Force that they will have to either release you and try and get out of the way of your attack, or take the hit.

So counter is probably the wrong word to have been used there, but basically the intent there is to say 'okay so we're letting you run wild with your imagination regarding Force Powers, but don't abuse that trust to create an un-dodgeable golden sphere that absorbs all attacks and just instantly crushes an enemy and they can't do anything to stop it.

Which is an actual thing that was done like ten years ago.

By me. :D

But yeah, a basic rewrite's probably easy enough to capture the intent of that rule more clearly.

 

[Gamov]

I'll just throw in my two cents here with a fairly broad comment that applies to the discussion as a whole as it applies to PvP.

Overall, I don't think the Force needs to be "amped up" any more than tech needs to be nerfed.

Though I'm still no great proponent of PvP (and likely never will be), my personal experiences with it this timeline - despite all my grousing - have been universally positive. I've fought in battles from both ends of the spectrum using a Sith and a non-FS character alike, and the thing I found to be most important was communication and a willingness to compromise. People don't like losing characters, obviously. So I've often found in my (albeit brief) PvP travels that actually talking to the other side and trying to work out a scenario which pleases everyone, and more importantly leaves everyone (more or less) intact, often leads to drama free threads.

I have found that if you extend the proverbial olive branch, you will often find people are willing to take a hit or a tumble in combat if they have assurances that no ill fate will befall their character. Which works out just fine for me, win or lose. I'd rather lose a battle than a character any day, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels that way. So in that regard, I don't know that tweaking the semantics of a couple rules here or there will have much impact overall. In my mind it's akin to lowering the speed limit on the highway in the hopes that it will stop people from speeding. Protip: it won't. Now am I saying don't change the rules? To an extent, yes.

I'll be perfectly honest, to this day I have not read through the rules start to finish. I know there are new rules meant to regulate the Force and battles and all that fun stuff, but I have often found that operating on a certain honor system, if you will, serves me far better - and to a far more satisfying degree - than being the ultimate rule lawyer who can win a fight based on technicalities. Does that mean I don't follow the rules? Not necessarily. I recognize they exist, and they exist for a reason, but I can say with absolute confidence that I have never been part of a PvP that has needed to be resolved by referencing the rules. Now as near as I can figure, this means one of two things. Either:

A: I'm actually a nice guy who people find entirely amicable (perish the thought), even when I'm trying to murderize their character.

or

B: I'm just lucky.

As much as it pains me to admit it, I believe the answer is A.

When I enter into PvP, I don't go in thinking, "gee, I hope I brought my grenades and a fancy rifle.". I go in thinking, "how can this resolve so that everyone lives."

I know that's not technically the way I'm supposed to look at PvP, but like I said, I do recognize that no one wants to lose a character. So to me, going into any thread with a competitive mindset, champing at the bit to kill another person's character purely for the fact that they're there and their death gives you the win/infamy/notoriety/a promotion/whatever, is a little pathetic on some level. People should go forward looking to cooperate with one another rather than compete. And I know there are some people for whom PvP and OoC sideshows are all but an inevitability, but (I feel) imposing stricter penalties on those who are quick to "report first, resolve never" will be a step in the right direction.

In order to change the way people behave in accordance with the rules, you first have to change how the rules are applied. And personally, I feel the rules should really only need to be referenced in the most unusual of circumstances. Not every time there's a scuffle between characters on a random mission.

tl;dr

The rules don't necessarily need clarification, people just need to start using their heads and a little common sense to work with rather than against their fellow writers.

 

[Raydo]

If every player acted like you mentioned above, their wouldn't be a need for rules. However, we know this isn't the case. The majority of people are just like you, and go about their business and make things work with communication. That is great and how it should be.

The rules are for those that don't know better or push the boundaries anyway.

 

[Dmitri]

^ That's simple enough to exaplain IMHO. Last timeline we had a flat ban on moved that couldn't be directly blocked or avoided by a non-Force user - prime example being Choke. Now with the Force being able to be disrupted and requiring large amounts of concentration, an effective counter to it is to basically shoot the Jedi/Sith dude(ette) - he or she has to focus so much on using the Force that they will have to either release you and try and get out of the way of your attack, or take the hit.

So counter is probably the wrong word to have been used there, but basically the intent there is to say 'okay so we're letting you run wild with your imagination regarding Force Powers, but don't abuse that trust to create an un-dodgeable golden sphere that absorbs all attacks and just instantly crushes an enemy and they can't do anything to stop it.

Which is an actual thing that was done like ten years ago.

By me. :D

But yeah, a basic rewrite's probably easy enough to capture the intent of that rule more clearly.

Many rules reflect as counters to actions that Boli has done in the past. Can't make a condition of losing being banned due to the outcome of a PvP? Boli. Hasn't anyone ever questioned why the original site owner Jetzt is no longer here? Boli challenged him to a Ban-PvP and won. And that's how Boli became an admin. Because he killed the master, making him the master.

 

[Green Ranger]

I am why we can't have nice things.