[Interest check]Grey Jedi

[Green Ranger]

@Outlander — I believe it is in the third book, the Christophsis Interlude (I get the contents of all of them mixed up, so I just cite Aftermath as all three novels). There is a quote from the book that gets overlooked, and it is mentioned in reference to the Disciples of the Beyond: "...he will join soon with the living Force, all hail the light, the dark, and the gray."

Im gonna assume theres more than that passage relating to the gray? Id hardly consider that definitive, after all.

 

[Outlander]

Im gonna assume theres more than that passage relating to the gray? Id hardly consider that definitive, after all.

I went back and checked out the chapter in question, which is around a group of pilgrims returning crystals to where they where found on Christophsis. They are members of the Church of the Force, which is the group Max Von Sidow's character was a part of in TFA. It bears mentioning that none of the members are force sensitive. Here are a few excerpts:

“The truth in our soul, Is that nothing is true. The question of life Is what then do we do? The burden is ours To penance, we hew. The Force binds us all From a certain point of view.”

That bit is from the Book of the Wills.

“Just as the Jedi are a lens that focuses the Force, so is the kyber crystal a lens that focuses the light inside the Jedi—and the light inside the Jedi’s weapon, the lightsaber. But those crystals can be used for greater, more evil powers—the Sith focus the Force, too, but they use it not for light, but only for destruction. These crystals were taken from Christophsis to power two of the most insidious weapons built, the legacy of Galen Erso, the legacy of Orson Krennic, of Tarkin and the Sith, of Palpatine and Vader. The Death Stars are gone. Light has persevered through the necessity of dark. These crystals must go home. That is your task.”

That bit is from the leader and pastor of the Church of the Force.

To me, it sounds like they worship the light side of the force, or are more in line with the Jedi Orders decision that to bring balance to the force, the Sith must be destroyed. I wouldn't exactly call them grey.

 

[Malon]

@Outlander — The Church of the Force are Jedi followers, they do worship the light side of the Force, but they also acknowledge that the dark side and "gray" also exist. They are known to have assisted Luke Skywalker and wish to see the return of the Jedi Order.

Im gonna assume theres more than that passage relating to the gray? Id hardly consider that definitive, after all.

That's my point—there is nothing definitive. The only thing that is definitive is that the grey is acknowledged by Force worshipers beyond just the Jedi and the Sith, and is apart of Force religions outside the two main sects as well. In Legends, we didn't even have that. "Grey" Jedi was a term applied to Jedi who didn't follow the will of the Council (Jolee Bindo and Qui-Gon Jinn) and, by fans, to those Jedi who could use dark side powers (like Revan). There was no "grey" religious tradition, it was more of a fan-speculation thing.

In canon, grey exists and is worshiped as its own side of the Force (Aftermath: Empire's End); can manifest in a Force being (Bendu, Star Wars Rebels); and is even referenced a few times in the Journal of the Whills ("Jedi sight" is referred to as "the resolving of gray"). We don't know what it can do, what it is, and what its role is in the larger scheme of the Force, but Empire's End seems to suggest that it is indeed a piece of the Living Force.

Furthermore, canon has given us inklings that "gray" is possible. The dark side does not always corrupt one when they use it: Take the Nightsisters, for instance. In Dark Disciples, a canon novel about Asajj Ventress and Quinalin Vos, Ventress explains that the Nightsisters had found a way to use the power of the dark side without succumbing to the corruption that plagued the Sith. They learned to restrain their emotions, very similarly to the Jedi, which allowed them to use the dark side with clarity, unclouded by emotions like rage and grief.

So, the notion that the dark side always leads to the type of corruption we see in Sith is a flawed manner of seeing the Force. In Dark Disciples, Ventress trains Voss to use her method of the dark side, and though he inevitably gives into his darker emotions and falls into deeper corruption, she suggests this is due to his Jedi training, which made him supremely unprepared for dealing with any real emotions, whereas the Nightsisters acknowledged their emotions but held them in check as a means of holding the dark side in check.

 

[Green Ranger]

Also the Acolytes of the Beyond are devoutly Dark Side? So im not really seeing what youre asserting, Malon. A single reference to the gray still more or less means nothing without anything to support it.

At best we can say some Force cults believed there may be a gray side to the Force, but as none actually practiced in it, that kind of lends itself to the idea that it doesn't.

 

[Outlander]

Also the Acolytes of the Beyond are devoutly Dark Side? So im not really seeing what youre asserting, Malon. A single reference to the gray still more or less means nothing without anything to support it.

At best we can say some Force cults believed there may be a gray side to the Force, but as none actually practiced in it, that kind of lends itself to the idea that it doesn't.

I think that was just a slip from @Malon , since the Acolytes of Beyond are mentioned in another interlude.

 

[Malon]

Yeah, it was a slip. It's been a hot minute since I've read those books (and I've been reading a lot since v.v). But yeah, Outlander's right; it was the Church of the Force, which is a light-sided organization that acknowledged all three parts of the Force; and it wouldn't really matter if they were dark side, since any Force organization acknowledging gray would lend credence to its existence.

 

[Green Ranger]

Going back to my original point of 'There's little to no concrete information given in Rebels or any other currently canon source that can lead to anyone even beginning to comprehend whether a Gray philosophy can even exist or function in the new Star Wars canon,' still fits, then. Because we have references to the gray, but we still lack concrete information on whether or not it can exist or function - ie there is nothing that categorically proves that the gray exists, just a lot of speculation. Your argument doesn't reject my assertion as much as I think you think it does, Malon.

Ideally you'd need a source to come along and say 'the gray is a thing and here is how you use it' to finally put the issue to rest once and for all, since that's probably the biggest hindrance. If the Light side is about focus through calmness and meditation and the dark side is about focus through force of will and emotion, then where does the gray fit on the spectrum? Like...do you have to be slightly peeved to access the gray? >.>

It's the same bucket as Bendu. He tells us he's gray and he's between light and dark, but all we have to go on is his word, and he doesn't exactly explain himself either. So we lack demonstrable evidence of it being anything more than a particular belief. We know the Force exists in the Star Wars universe through evidence. We know there is a Light Side and a Dark Side, and we know they have different properties and effects on an individual. In the same way, we know Dathomiri magic exists.

But as far as the gray goes, all we know right now is that some people believe in it.

 

[Outlander]

Going back to my original point of 'There's little to no concrete information given in Rebels or any other currently canon source that can lead to anyone even beginning to comprehend whether a Gray philosophy can even exist or function in the new Star Wars canon,' still fits, then. Because we have references to the gray, but we still lack concrete information on whether or not it can exist or function - ie there is nothing that categorically proves that the gray exists, just a lot of speculation. Your argument doesn't reject my assertion as much as I think you think it does, Malon.

Ideally you'd need a source to come along and say 'the gray is a thing and here is how you use it' to finally put the issue to rest once and for all, since that's probably the biggest hindrance. If the Light side is about focus through calmness and meditation and the dark side is about focus through force of will and emotion, then where does the gray fit on the spectrum? Like...do you have to be slightly peeved to access the gray? >.>

It's the same bucket as Bendu. He tells us he's gray and he's between light and dark, but all we have to go on is his word, and he doesn't exactly explain himself either. So we lack demonstrable evidence of it being anything more than a particular belief. We know the Force exists in the Star Wars universe through evidence. We know there is a Light Side and a Dark Side, and we know they have different properties and effects on an individual. In the same way, we know Dathomiri magic exists.

But as far as the gray goes, all we know right now is that some people believe in it.

Well, actually, there is something in Rebels that shows the Grey. When Maul and Ezra connect the holocrons, and use it to gain knowledge.

Its nothing close to definitive. But it feels like Star Wars is going towards something like the grey. We cant exactly go about redoing how the force works, but I think it would be smart to prepare for the chance that Episode 7 will have some grey force revelations.

 

[Malon]

@Boli — I think you mistook my intentions. I agree with you. There's no concrete proof that the grey exists. It's alluded to — and, with the emphasis it is being given in recent Star Wars material, I have no doubt that it will eventually be proven — but nothing concrete that we can point to in order to say, "There, there's the gray." Which is why I was agreeing with you while explaining that forming a "grey" Jedi organization would be nearly impossible.

Now, if one wanted to create a grey Force religion, in which gray was a belief of said religion, and not a set of powers and abilities, that's an entirely different ballpark.

 

[Green Ranger]

@Boli — I think you mistook my intentions. I agree with you. There's no concrete proof that the grey exists. It's alluded to — and, with the emphasis it is being given in recent Star Wars material, I have no doubt that it will eventually be proven — but nothing concrete that we can point to in order to say, "There, there's the gray." Which is why I was agreeing with you while explaining that forming a "grey" Jedi organization would be nearly impossible.

Now, if one wanted to create a grey Force religion, in which gray was a belief of said religion, and not a set of powers and abilities, that's an entirely different ballpark.

Cool, we're in agreement then. :P

And yeah, I've no doubt it'll be a thing. I'll be annoyed when it does, because I honestly think the gray has always been weaksauce fanboy Mary Sue bullshit, but it seems fairly clear that it'll become an actual thing at some point, to the detriment of RP communities everywhere. D: