Jedi Delegations

[Cyril Khan]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(alfphonzo @ Feb 18 2007, 12:09 PM) [snapback]150619[/snapback]</div>

Um, the Jedi do not strike. They defend.[/b]

Indeed, but some defenses are strikes. If the Jedi continuously said, lets defend defend defend... then worlds occupied by the Sith would faulter. I agree that the Republic is an importation part of this, but in a sense if the Jedi were to lead or become a part of a strike it would be a defense. Jedi are the gaurdians of the galaxy. If a faction attacks a planet, it is their duty to defend it. If the planet is occupied, is it not the Jedi's duty to defend those living there? Or would you think they would sit and watch as the civilians are ruled by a dictator. In such times, the Jedi attacking an occupied planet is not just a strike, it is a defense against the Sith or Mandalorian conquest of the Galaxy.

The Jedi cannot deal with the threat alone. They need the Republic. If the two worked together in repulsing the Sith/Mandalorians, things would work fine. The Jedi sitting around doing nothing, except watching the Republic do everything, sound stupid. If the Jedi are the gaurdians of the galaxy and are meant to defend the peace, repulsing the enemy from innocent soil is their duty. Now I'm not saying put them together and make a mass army, but I'm not saying they should sit around and let the Republic do the attacking. They would at least be leaders in an attack. In any forms of fighting their is aggression. Is it smart for the Jedi to sit and wait for the Sith to come to them and risk more innocent civilians or defend those civilians already under corrupt rule by leading a strike. The Sith have already made their many strikes, yet where is the Jedi defense. Where is the counter?

Defense is more complex than it seems.

 

[Jamie]

That has to be one of the most intelectual posts I have ever read.

 

[Ser Yorick]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Cyril Khan @ Feb 18 2007, 03:17 PM) [snapback]150683[/snapback]</div>

Indeed, but some defenses are strikes. If the Jedi continuously said, lets defend defend defend... then worlds occupied by the Sith would faulter. I agree that the Republic is an importation part of this, but in a sense if the Jedi were to lead or become a part of a strike it would be a defense. Jedi are the gaurdians of the galaxy. If a faction attacks a planet, it is their duty to defend it. If the planet is occupied, is it not the Jedi's duty to defend those living there? Or would you think they would sit and watch as the civilians are ruled by a dictator. In such times, the Jedi attacking an occupied planet is not just a strike, it is a defense against the Sith or Mandalorian conquest of the Galaxy.

The Jedi cannot deal with the threat alone. They need the Republic. If the two worked together in repulsing the Sith/Mandalorians, things would work fine. The Jedi sitting around doing nothing, except watching the Republic do everything, sound stupid. If the Jedi are the gaurdians of the galaxy and are meant to defend the peace, repulsing the enemy from innocent soil is their duty. Now I'm not saying put them together and make a mass army, but I'm not saying they should sit around and let the Republic do the attacking. They would at least be leaders in an attack. In any forms of fighting their is aggression. Is it smart for the Jedi to sit and wait for the Sith to come to them and risk more innocent civilians or defend those civilians already under corrupt rule by leading a strike. The Sith have already made their many strikes, yet where is the Jedi defense. Where is the counter?

Defense is more complex than it seems.[/b]

Did I say the Jedi stand around and do nothing? Did I say anything about standing back and letting the Republic deal with it all? Let the Sith and Mandalorians keep taking planets? All that I said was that Jedi do not strike. Striking in terms of what I meant was aggression. Jedi do not slaughter their enemies, in fact, they do not truly have enemies in that respect. What you say is true, sometimes a great defense is a good offense, but that goes both ways.

What I say we do, is team up with the Republic, which is in fact, myself. The Jedi shall not lead any battles, but instead we shall help, and defend the planets we have, and fight against the opposition of peace, not just the Sith, but anything that threatens peace. The Sith are not the Jedi's enemies, it's what they represent: destruction.

 

[Incubi Priest]

Sorry for being late, but so far all of the Ideas are great. The nupaq crime family might not be able to help the jedi, but they are fans of the republic. Rejik will support the republic through any criminal activities he can, such as smuggling weapons and information through the sith to the republic. Quill is friends with Syeria, who is Tamir's apprentice. He is the leader of the Bounty Hunters, and she might be able to convince him to help. You said no aliegences with the underworld, but haven't you ever heard of the saying 'drastic times call for drastic measures'? The jedi wouldn't wholly condemn someone for being a criminal, and wouldn't turn down their help if they truly wish to help the republic.

 

[Ser Yorick]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Summon Four Gods @ Feb 18 2007, 03:34 PM) [snapback]150695[/snapback]</div>

Sorry for being late, but so far all of the Ideas are great. The nupaq crime family might not be able to help the jedi, but they are fans of the republic. Rejik will support the republic through any criminal activities he can, such as smuggling weapons and information through the sith to the republic. Quill is friends with Syeria, who is Tamir's apprentice. He is the leader of the Bounty Hunters, and she might be able to convince him to help. You said no aliegences with the underworld, but haven't you ever heard of the saying 'drastic times call for drastic measures'? The jedi wouldn't wholly condemn someone for being a criminal, and wouldn't turn down their help if they truly wish to help the republic.[/b]

I don't really think the Republic will want nor accept help from criminals... This isn't the Rebel days where that was necessary, this is a full blown galactic government we're talking about here, with citizens watching what's happening, and political agendas abound. Hiring criminals wouldn't be too smart for Leikinn to do, politcally speaking. It's suicide.

 

[Incubi Priest]

True, then keep their aid more secretive. Whenever Rejik's ships are smuggling supplies, set up fake interceptions. Act like your seriously seizing their merchandize when the Nupaq's are letting you. Arrest the criminals, and then Rejik will bust them out, only you don't have to inform the public about their break out. The republic has used mercenaries before, so as far as the bounty hunters go, just say their mercs. Anyhow, the nupaq crime family would play along. What would really be the Chancellor accepting help from criminals would appear to the citizens to be the Chancellor of the Republic not only fighting a war, but cracking down on crime as well. Makes you look like your going to aid the republic in every aspect, and that you're capable enough to do both.

And about the Jedi leading strikes, didn't during the Clone wars the jedi serve as generals and led assaults on other planets?

 

[Ser Yorick]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Summon Four Gods @ Feb 18 2007, 03:46 PM) [snapback]150697[/snapback]</div>

True, then keep their aid more secretive. Whenever Rejik's ships are smuggling supplies, set up fake interceptions. Act like your seriously seizing their merchandize when the Nupaq's are letting you. Arrest the criminals, and then Rejik will bust them out, only you don't have to inform the public about their break out. The republic has used mercenaries before, so as far as the bounty hunters go, just say their mercs. Anyhow, the nupaq crime family would play along. What would really be the Chancellor accepting help from criminals would appear to the citizens to be the Chancellor of the Republic not only fighting a war, but cracking down on crime as well. Makes you look like your going to aid the republic in every aspect, and that you're capable enough to do both.

And about the Jedi leading strikes, didn't during the Clone wars the jedi serve as generals and led assaults on other planets?[/b]

That could work. I like you.

And yes, the Jedi did have a more integrated role, but they were also fighting in different ways than what was shown on the screen, and their goals were more than just killing the opposition. And ultimately, in my opinion, that was their downfall, they were becoming too much like warriors. You even see Obi-Wan debating with Yoda and the council if what they're doing is wise, etc.

 

[Sir Dakar]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Balian Ibelin @ Feb 18 2007, 12:10 PM) [snapback]150644[/snapback]</div>

Perhaps the first step is to find stability? Start to help the Republic in it's war effort then, rebuild the fleets, and rebuild the Jedi order.[/b]

Absolutely correct Darca.

The Jedi already have three bases, Hoth and two others remote, and very much hidden bases. Now of course Hoth is not very much hidden but Site Alpha, and Site Beta are. So if the Republic has nowhere else to go, I would suggest going to Site Alpha. The Republic can start their rebuilding efforts, create some shipyards, and perhaps set up a temporary Capitol for the time being.

O and its Site Alpha is Anoth, and Site Beta is Baltimn. Anoth is hidden in a gas cloud, and that makes it harder for Sensors to penetrate, so the jedi are basically safe there.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jedi Knight Avare @ Feb 18 2007, 01:16 PM) [snapback]150659[/snapback]</div>

Peace between the 2 is for the Mandalorians to decide, they are their own nation and by them going into civil war the Republic can gain much of its outer rim and core planets if we strike correctly. I dont know if we should maybe have Masters be General's of Republic platoons and such like during the Clone Wars but that could be an option. I think us interfering with the Mandalorians will only make things worse for the Republic as a whole. If the Mandalorians lose numbers the odds of us taking more controls are greater, and thats an ally the Sith are losing.[/b]

That is exactly what I was hoping we could do, it seems to make the most sense logistically.

 

[Cyril Khan]

What you intend to do is exactly sitting and doing nothing. If you try to defend planets the Sith/Mandlorians haven't taken, you are abandoning those people who have had their live wrecked by the Sith/Mandalorian occupation. You got half of what I was saying. Being counter offensive is fine. If you give an opponenet enough time, it doesn't matter how hard you defend, you cannot continue to defend. Think of marble. If you take a chisel to it you will break it. It takes time, but you do it eventually.

Also, you are failing to see the other line of defense. Occupied worlds are worlds that are full of people needing defense and aide. By allowing the Sith/Mandalorians to hold these planets and not organizing an opposition to the group that destroyed the peace, the Jedi are not following their duty to defend the galaxy and the peace.

What you intend to do is exactly what got the galaxy into the position it is in. Not all agression is evil. If an attack is lead in means to bring safety to the people of occupied planets and restore the planets the way they were, then the attack is justified; it would be in such a Jedi's duty.

The Republic is by far the only way the galaxy can be restored to peace. The Jedi must play their part as well. They cannot abandon the innocent already put into torment. Which do you aide first: the man who is wounded or the man that could be wounded. One would say the first. Is this no different. What should you defend first? Innocent people already under torment, or those that may be put into torment later? In such terms it is the Jedi's duty to be with the offensive.

Remember, fighting with intent to kill is not the Jedi's way; it is slaughter. Fighting in intent to aide, save, and protect, is the Jedi's way; it loses its aggression.

 

[Incubi Priest]

Yay, someone likes me. So is that plan a go?

And yeah, I forgot about that. And that probably was their downfall, because they were bending the rules of the jedi. Also, they did the same thing in the Jedi Civil War, and five years later their were like six left, and thats if you include the Exile and Atris.

 

[Incubi Priest]

What you intend to do is exactly sitting and doing nothing. If you try to defend planets the Sith/Mandlorians haven't taken, you are abandoning those people who have had their live wrecked by the Sith/Mandalorian occupation. You got half of what I was saying. Being counter offensive is fine. If you give an opponenet enough time, it doesn't matter how hard you defend, you cannot continue to defend. Think of marble. If you take a chisel to it you will break it. It takes time, but you do it eventually.

Also, you are failing to see the other line of defense. Occupied worlds are worlds that are full of people needing defense and aide. By allowing the Sith/Mandalorians to hold these planets and not organizing an opposition to the group that destroyed the peace, the Jedi are not following their duty to defend the galaxy and the peace.

What you intend to do is exactly what got the galaxy into the position it is in. Not all agression is evil. If an attack is lead in means to bring safety to the people of occupied planets and restore the planets the way they were, then the attack is justified; it would be in such a Jedi's duty.

The Republic is by far the only way the galaxy can be restored to peace. The Jedi must play their part as well. They cannot abandon the innocent already put into torment. Which do you aide first: the man who is wounded or the man that could be wounded. One would say the first. Is this no different. What should you defend first? Innocent people already under torment, or those that may be put into torment later? In such terms it is the Jedi's duty to be with the offensive.

Remember, fighting with intent to kill is not the Jedi's way; it is slaughter. Fighting in intent to aide, save, and protect, is the Jedi's way; it loses its aggression.

What about more subtle acts, like sabotage? Find key parts to the Sith's and Mandalorian's war efforts and mess them up? If the sith and mando's see the jedi fighting in the war, then they'll step up their military power a hundred fold. If they think the jedi are staying out, when we're really helping subtly, they'll get arrogant and theink they have the upper hand. Its a common tactic in war. Use their ego against them. Its the most common way the underdog wins.

 

[Ser Yorick]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Cyril Khan @ Feb 18 2007, 03:55 PM) [snapback]150702[/snapback]</div>

What you intend to do is exactly sitting and doing nothing. If you try to defend planets the Sith/Mandlorians haven't taken, you are abandoning those people who have had their live wrecked by the Sith/Mandalorian occupation. You got half of what I was saying. Being counter offensive is fine. If you give an opponenet enough time, it doesn't matter how hard you defend, you cannot continue to defend. Think of marble. If you take a chisel to it you will break it. It takes time, but you do it eventually.

Also, you are failing to see the other line of defense. Occupied worlds are worlds that are full of people needing defense and aide. By allowing the Sith/Mandalorians to hold these planets and not organizing an opposition to the group that destroyed the peace, the Jedi are not following their duty to defend the galaxy and the peace.

What you intend to do is exactly what got the galaxy into the position it is in. Not all agression is evil. If an attack is lead in means to bring safety to the people of occupied planets and restore the planets the way they were, then the attack is justified; it would be in such a Jedi's duty.

The Republic is by far the only way the galaxy can be restored to peace. The Jedi must play their part as well. They cannot abandon the innocent already put into torment. Which do you aide first: the man who is wounded or the man that could be wounded. One would say the first. Is this no different. What should you defend first? Innocent people already under torment, or those that may be put into torment later? In such terms it is the Jedi's duty to be with the offensive.

Remember, fighting with intent to kill is not the Jedi's way; it is slaughter. Fighting in intent to aide, save, and protect, is the Jedi's way; it loses its aggression.[/b]

No. I do not fail to see any part of the overall picture here.

We may have the intent to do good, but where will it stop? We keep down the path of being offensive, and soon our actions become aggressive. It's an inevitable path we go down the road of being the ones to strike. It's just like the Mandalorian Wars all over again. And like what Revan did, sacrificed his own conscious for the better. The ends justify the means? You can't start down a path of violence for the sake of good and expect to be able to turn your back on it when the war is over. You can't have both; violence and serenity.

The rest of the Jedi can go their own way, your character can go on and fight against the Sith on the front lines, but in all reality, you're in danger of falling to the dark side, no matter what you think going in.


What I proposed is not standing around doing nothing. Defending Republic forces and helping coordinate assaults but not sending dozens of Jedi into war is not standing around doing nothing, it's choosing our actions carefully.

 

[Jamie]

I agree with Quills idea, it is very interlectual and also is allowing a cover up to take place as well which is good because it is not giving away plans too much.

I also like Dakar's plan, for the Republic to use one of our sites to rebuild ships and other such things; very good idea.

Altogether, we are getting some very productive ideas, this idea to use this board was a very good idea Dakar.

 

[Incubi Priest]

Amen, Jamie.

Besides, acts of Brawn have won battles and wars, but in the end the intellectual and cunning desicions come out victorious. william Wallace didn't go to london first and try to take it over, he was smarter than that. He picked off the weaker spots. Just an example of cunning.

and how about getting someone on the inside? Convince a mando or sith to leak information. Or use the criminals, like Rejik, to have dealings with the sith and mandos. Secretly get information, and then give it to the republic.

 

[Ser Yorick]

There is no emotion; there is peace.
There is no ignorance; there is knowledge.
There is no passion; there is serenity.
There is no death; there is the force.
Jedi are the guardians of peace in the galaxy.
Jedi use their powers to defend and protect,
never to attack others.
Jedi respect all life, in any form.
Jedi serve others rather than ruling over
them, for the god of the galaxy.
Jedi seek to improve themselves through
knowledge and training. -The Jedi Code

 

[Incubi Priest]

Also, later on to finalize what we're going to do, how about setting up a poll in the council forum with the different ideas and have everyone vote? Not until we've done all of the discussion about it though, but once we've come to where we can no longer argue the points, or we already have, i say we do a formal vote. That way we know what plans are go, and which ones aren't. If a plan doesn't make it, we can argue in its favor later on, or vice versa, but not without reason. Example: a plan we made is hurting us or is ineffective, have another poll. Or if we're losing or at a standstill, bring up the old ideas and see if they work.

That won't happen unitl later, but I figured I'd throw it in the open

 

[Incubi Priest]

Another quick thing about the criminal aid, use impressment. The smugglers will obviously need to stay smugglers and continue their rougue deeds to help the republic, but say I send so many bounty hunters on each smuggling ship, you can make them join the military on the front lines. The public will think its good because its a way of improvising, and it'll save the lives of the actual military. Also, you can tell the public that they were the only people on the ship if the press asks, that way no one will ever know about the other smugglers that are going to "break out"

Win win situation.

 

[Cyril Khan]

For every action there is a consequence. You must accept your consequence when it come to you. Any deallings with the Sith is a risk to go to the Darkside.

Again you cannot see what I am saying. I am not saying the Jedi go beat the crap out of the Sith. I am saying that they defend and not abandon the innocents of occupied worlds. This is not a full scale attack I am saying. Fighting would be involved, but it will be involved any way you go about it. You sit around waiting for someone to attack, you fight anyways. You go to free those under corrupt rule, you again are required to fight. The same thing is accpomplished no matter what you do. You are aiding those that need the help. On defending a planet, you are fighting to aide those on it. Going with the Republic to an occupied world with intent to aide those effected by the occupation, your goal and means are the same.

War is a mental game as it is physical. If you say "I can't do that because I could affect me in such and such way" then it is very foolish. War is not meant to be a thing that you can walk into clear of mind and out the same. If you fear the Jedi turning to the Darkside then toss them in a vault and throw away the key. It'll keep them light, but they will be failing their duty to defend. No matter what they do, they will be forced to fight destruction, and the consequences will not change much.

If a Jedi hates the Sith and wishes to slaughter them, they will do so defending a planet and in aiding an occupied planet. Some form of fighting comes with some form of defense or aide. If you try to stop an attack, fighting is required. If you go to help those under occupation, fighting is required. If you keep the Jedi to defend select planets currently unheld by "destruction", then they are no longer the gaurdians of the galaxy. They are the gaurdians of the planets untouched by evil. It is their duty to protect the people of the galaxy. That include those already under torment. If they stay and defend they abandon occupied innocents. If they only aide those on occupied worlds, then they abandon unheld planets to destruction. They must play parts on both sides and not just one.

 

[Incubi Priest]

Cyril makes a good point.

 

[Ser Yorick]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Cyril Khan @ Feb 18 2007, 04:33 PM) [snapback]150712[/snapback]</div>

For every action there is a consequence. You must accept your consequence when it come to you. Any deallings with the Sith is a risk to go to the Darkside.[/b]

No shit.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Cyril Khan @ Feb 18 2007, 04:33 PM) [snapback]150712[/snapback]</div>

Again you cannot see what I am saying. I am not saying the Jedi go beat the crap out of the Sith. I am saying that they defend and not abandon the innocents of occupied worlds. This is not a full scale attack I am saying. Fighting would be involved, but it will be involved any way you go about it. You sit around waiting for someone to attack, you fight anyways. You go to free those under corrupt rule, you again are required to fight. The same thing is accpomplished no matter what you do. You are aiding those that need the help. On defending a planet, you are fighting to aide those on it. Going with the Republic to an occupied world with intent to aide those effected by the occupation, your goal and means are the same.[/b]

Don't tell me what I do not know if you do not look deeper into the meaning of what I said. Fighting is involved, yes, that is quite obvious, but the role of the Jedi is not preemptive assaults, as I already said. And you keep thinking what I'm proposing is standing there and doing nothing. It's not as black and white as it seems. And neither is what you're saying, but you're arguing a point that is neither here nor there. Fighting is required, yes, but it's the reason why you fight, and the actions you take in order to prevent the fight, and how you fight.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Cyril Khan @ Feb 18 2007, 04:33 PM) [snapback]150712[/snapback]</div>

War is a mental game as it is physical. If you say "I can't do that because I could affect me in such and such way" then it is very foolish. War is not meant to be a thing that you can walk into clear of mind and out the same. If you fear the Jedi turning to the Darkside then toss them in a vault and throw away the key. It'll keep them light, but they will be failing their duty to defend. No matter what they do, they will be forced to fight destruction, and the consequences will not change much.[/b]

Um, once again I did not say that.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Cyril Khan @ Feb 18 2007, 04:33 PM) [snapback]150712[/snapback]</div>

If a Jedi hates the Sith and wishes to slaughter them, they will do so defending a planet and in aiding an occupied planet. Some form of fighting comes with some form of defense or aide. If you try to stop an attack, fighting is required. If you go to help those under occupation, fighting is required. If you keep the Jedi to defend select planets currently unheld by "destruction", then they are no longer the gaurdians of the galaxy. They are the gaurdians of the planets untouched by evil. It is their duty to protect the people of the galaxy. That include those already under torment. If they stay and defend they abandon occupied innocents. If they only aide those on occupied worlds, then they abandon unheld planets to destruction. They must play parts on both sides and not just one.[/b]

Fight is required, yeah yeah, already went on that point. And who said anything about abandoning? WHy is it that if we leave offensive strikes and pure military means of destruction of Sith planets you call it abandoning citizens? Are the Republic stupid and inefficent? I had thought they had an army, and we do not, as we are not soldiers. We're not abandoning anyone if the Republic forces are the ones attacking a planet. Like I already stated, we can help coordinate the assaults and all that. but it is better to keep most Jedi out of the battle field as much as possible. How hard is the Jedi Code to understand? How hard is it to see that the Jedi are not warriors, and that the path in which preemptive violence lays is not the correct one for the Jedi? I had thought the Mandalorian Wars was proof enough.

And if it still isn't, look back at this:
Jedi use their powers to defend and protect,
never to attack others.