Kashyyyk: Patrol Ambush

[Phoenix]

Hey @Lamper I thought I'd set up an OOC for our thread, since there will no doubt be a need for clarifications on our ridiculous PvP moves. ;)

 

[Lamper]

Hey @Lamper I thought I'd set up an OOC for our thread, since there will no doubt be a need for clarifications on our ridiculous PvP moves. ;)

Fosho brotherman! Whew... Gotta take a breath. This'll be tough :p

And just to get things started, this op is more for plot device than anything else obviously. Since we don't control any npcs I just wanted to initiate that reasoning with some explosions lol. Everything happens really fast to get us into close combat from the get. ;)

ps And the opening dialog is within the helmet's com-link earpiece just fyi

 

[Phoenix]

Fosho brotherman! Whew... Gotta take a breath. This'll be tough :p

And just to get things started, this op is more for plot device than anything else obviously. Since we don't control any npcs I just wanted to initiate that reasoning with some explosions lol. Everything happens really fast to get us into close combat from the get. ;)

What! NPC use! Autoloss! lol jk ;)

Edit: Cappi's a lemming?!?!?

 

[Lamper]

Cappi's a lemming?!?!?

Question: Is Javik turning towards his right to aim the pistol with his arm crossing in front of his body after passing Cappi, or is Javik turning towards his left to aim his gun more back?

 

[Phoenix]

@Lamper he's rotating to his own right through the whole motion. So it's sort of a sidestep/rotation.

 

[Lamper]

Right as the foot came down, before his opponent had even had time to fully settle his weight, Javik used his left foot to plant a powerful kick to his opponent’s leg, mid-calf.

Here's where I think we agree: Cappi wouldn't be able to: lift his leg out of the way, leap/roll, use any fp, use his left hand.

What we disagree on, my friend, is Javik being able to kick Cappi's calf that quickly. That said, the above we still agree on.

Here's how I see it. Cappi slashes as he's stepping onto his right foot. Javik (albeit attempting to olé like a toreador lol) steps left due to Cappi's attack, otherwise Cappi's charge would veer into Javik and nullify the purpose of Javik's sidestep. Basically Javik steps left at the last second, or at least more so than not. So if Javik blocks Cappi's saber and Cappi's slash is happening as Cappi is stepping onto his right foot, even if Javik's already begun to step left, their steps would happen roughly at the same time: Javik onto his left and Cappi onto his right. I made sure to write this in my last post, that their steps happen at the same time and that their turns to face each other would take the same amount of time. Cappi is pivoting on that right foot as it's planting whereas Javik's left foot has to plant and then push off with some kind of preparation (meaning pull back) after that to have the power behind it you're describing not to mention the arc that brings Javik's left foot to say just above Cappi's knee level to come down at that angle into Cappi's calf. I'll totally grant you that a kick is faster than an adjusting foot, but imho Cappi's weight should already be planted and already mid pivot by the time Javik's kick would land the hit.

<3 :D <3

 

[Phoenix]

@Lamper yeah that's probably fair. His kick's kind of a stomping kick but yeah it's reasonable that Cappi would be halfway through a pivot, even with that though it seems like kinda semantics. Halfway through a pivot his foot will still be solidly planted into the ground so he won't be able to move. The only difference seems to be which direction the knee will shatter (to the side or to the side and back) since It doesn't seem possible to dodge and everything else in the post still stands true. :)

 

[Lamper]

@Lamper yeah that's probably fair. His kick's kind of a stomping kick but yeah it's reasonable that Cappi would be halfway through a pivot, even with that though it seems like kinda semantics. Halfway through a pivot his foot will still be solidly planted into the ground so he won't be able to move. The only difference seems to be which direction the knee will shatter (to the side or to the side and back) since It doesn't seem possible to dodge and everything else in the post still stands true. :)

I'll post with this in mind and we'll see... :P

You're such a reasonable chap, you know that? If only every person I pvp'd with was like you. I'll be sure to return the favor!

 

[Phoenix]

@Lamper I tried to explain my reasoning for that, and I'll try to answer any concerns, but I feel relatively confident about that post holding up to review.

 

[Lamper]

@Lamper I tried to explain my reasoning for that, and I'll try to answer any concerns, but I feel relatively confident about that post holding up to review.

Hmm... I disagree with your reasoning. But I'm sure we can talk this out. And imagine a story book princess' voice as you read this to keep things light. Like Snow White. :p

Firstly, and least importantly, I wrote Cappi's push as an independent action from Javik's kick, to say that Cappi's shoving Javik isn't inspired by Javik's kick but that it executes its peak moment of purpose as Javik is mid-kick. It is inspired by their close proximity which is instigated prior to the kick. This means the timing is in Cappi's favor regardless of who wins the race, though I'd still wager that Cappi's shove would win that race over Javik's kick. Their sabers are the closest to each other while Javik's foot is the furthest. Also, Cappi's telekinetic attack stopped the rotation of Javik's left hand which yanked the pistol away. This would delay Javik's kick as well as steal some of the oomph behind the kick. But more importantly Javik wouldn't expect Cappi's push nor be able to divine a reaction beforehand. And as fast as Javik's kick is, Javik wouldn't have the time to react in that movement. So Javik wouldn't be able to lean into Cappi's shove as you wrote he did. Javik would naturally be leaning back to kick forward per equilibrium. Javik boasts an effective technique, but proper technique dictates the opposition of movement for optimum impact; torso back - leg forward with an emphasis on a twisting motion. And perfect technique is out the window anyway after Cappi's telekinetic tug yanks Javik's left hand back. Cappi is leaning forward onto his pivoting right leg while Javik is conversely leaning back with the switch of forward leg position - i.e. kicking. All of this inherently gives Cappi an advantage of leverage both in strength and timing, as well as the advantage of surprise. So your first two points are flawed imo - Cappi would have more leverage and Javik would not be able to resist in that moment.

You did say that Cappi's shove managed to lessen Javik's body weight behind the kick as well as later saying that Javik falls backwards, but still claim the same desired result of a shattered knee. So if Javik's kick is lessened/altered, why would the same result still happen? But to begin with, Javik's body weight is not a factor in this equation imo as Javik is swiveling on one leg. If anything, Javik's body weight is solely a factor against the kick's success. Which brings me to the most important factor, I think. And that is Javik's spinning rotation. Even if Javik could resist the shove on one leg, which I strongly don't believe he could, Javik's spinning rotation nullifies the success of that effort and adds to the disorientation factor. Someone who even lightly shoves your right side as you're kicking with your back left leg sends you off balance easily b/c your center axis is between those two points. It's impossible to resist without your center behind the attempt. The way Javik is naturally rotating is sending his weight back over his right, while the way Cappi is rotating is grounding his weight forward - and yet Cappi's right armed push doesn't require Cappi to even remotely finish his rotation while Javik's kick is dependent upon completing the rotation. And if Javik is shoved backwards, which you seem to have accepted, the angle of Javik's kick is changed. And if the angle is changed as I'm describing, then Javik's kick would end up off target to his right and higher than anticipated due to the backwards tilt/lean with rotation; not to mention the separation factor. So a distance is created and an angling is forcing the kick off target by adding to Javik's spinning rotation. And with Javik falling back, his kick would have considerably less impact. Though I'm arguing that that impact doesn't even matter because Javik's kick misses.

All that said, Javik would still be able to use lightning with that telekinetic blast as he's falling backwards as you wrote. But I heartily and merrily dispute your prior points.

And as you know, there is no malevolent tone meant here. Just words. Sweet sweet words. ;3

 

[Lamper]

Hmm... I disagree with your reasoning. But I'm sure we can talk this out. And imagine a story book princess' voice as you read this to keep things light. Like Snow White. :p

Firstly, and least importantly, I wrote Cappi's push as an independent action from Javik's kick, to say that Cappi's shoving Javik isn't inspired by Javik's kick but that it executes its peak moment of purpose as Javik is mid-kick. It is inspired by their close proximity which is instigated prior to the kick. This means the timing is in Cappi's favor regardless of who wins the race, though I'd still wager that Cappi's shove would win that race over Javik's kick. Their sabers are the closest to each other while Javik's foot is the furthest. Also, Cappi's telekinetic attack stopped the rotation of Javik's left hand which yanked the pistol away. This would delay Javik's kick as well as steal some of the oomph behind the kick. But more importantly Javik wouldn't expect Cappi's push nor be able to divine a reaction beforehand. And as fast as Javik's kick is, Javik wouldn't have the time to react in that movement. So Javik wouldn't be able to lean into Cappi's shove as you wrote he did. Javik would naturally be leaning back to kick forward per equilibrium. Javik boasts an effective technique, but proper technique dictates the opposition of movement for optimum impact; torso back - leg forward with an emphasis on a twisting motion. And perfect technique is out the window anyway after Cappi's telekinetic tug yanks Javik's left hand back. Cappi is leaning forward onto his pivoting right leg while Javik is conversely leaning back with the switch of forward leg position - i.e. kicking. All of this inherently gives Cappi an advantage of leverage both in strength and timing, as well as the advantage of surprise. So your first two points are flawed imo - Cappi would have more leverage and Javik would not be able to resist in that moment.

You did say that Cappi's shove managed to lessen Javik's body weight behind the kick as well as later saying that Javik falls backwards, but still claim the same desired result of a shattered knee. So if Javik's kick is lessened/altered, why would the same result still happen? But to begin with, Javik's body weight is not a factor in this equation imo as Javik is swiveling on one leg. If anything, Javik's body weight is solely a factor against the kick's success. Which brings me to the most important factor, I think. And that is Javik's spinning rotation. Even if Javik could resist the shove on one leg, which I strongly don't believe he could, Javik's spinning rotation nullifies the success of that effort and adds to the disorientation factor. Someone who even lightly shoves your right side as you're kicking with your back left leg sends you off balance easily b/c your center axis is between those two points. It's impossible to resist without your center behind the attempt. The way Javik is naturally rotating is sending his weight back over his right, while the way Cappi is rotating is grounding his weight forward - and yet Cappi's right armed push doesn't require Cappi to even remotely finish his rotation while Javik's kick is dependent upon completing the rotation. And if Javik is shoved backwards, which you seem to have accepted, the angle of Javik's kick is changed. And if the angle is changed as I'm describing, then Javik's kick would end up off target to his right and higher than anticipated due to the backwards tilt/lean with rotation; not to mention the separation factor. So a distance is created and an angling is forcing the kick off target by adding to Javik's spinning rotation. And with Javik falling back, his kick would have considerably less impact. Though I'm arguing that that impact doesn't even matter because Javik's kick misses.

All that said, Javik would still be able to use lightning with that telekinetic blast as he's falling backwards as you wrote. But I heartily and merrily dispute your prior points.

And as you know, there is no malevolent tone meant here. Just words. Sweet sweet words. ;3

@Phœnix ^^

 

[Lamper]

Okay, buddy. Posted before the 48hr mark and submitted my post for a ruling for the sake of getting us moving again since I haven't heard from ya. No hard feelin's @Phœnix. :)

 

[Phoenix]

Sorry for the slow reply, my friend. To say the last couple of days have been hectic IRL wouldn't be an overstatement. So to address your concerns:

Firstly, and least importantly, I wrote Cappi's push as an independent action from Javik's kick, to say that Cappi's shoving Javik isn't inspired by Javik's kick but that it executes its peak moment of purpose as Javik is mid-kick. It is inspired by their close proximity which is instigated prior to the kick.

I assumed this was in response to the kick, because when i looked at it (barring metagaming) it didn't really seem a logical attack. Cappi trying to push Javik over with one arm doesn't really seem to make sense based on what Cappi knows of Javik. Obviously Cappi can't push Javik over with one arm if he's on two feet and balanced, that's why i assumed it was in response to the kick.

Also, Cappi's telekinetic attack stopped the rotation of Javik's left hand which yanked the pistol away. This would delay Javik's kick as well as steal some of the oomph behind the kick.

The effect from this would be negligible. The pull was against the pistol, not the hand, and Javik released the pistol after a fraction of a second, so that wouldn't have much effect.

But more importantly Javik wouldn't expect Cappi's push nor be able to divine a reaction beforehand. And as fast as Javik's kick is, Javik wouldn't have the time to react in that movement. So Javik wouldn't be able to lean into Cappi's shove as you wrote he did. Javik would naturally be leaning back to kick forward per equilibrium.

Even if he's not leaning into it, he can still provide resistance to it for a moment. Granted, he may not be able to resist for long but the thing is this:

Option 1: if Cappi did this before Javik is kicking (which like i said in my first point doesn't really seem to make sense) then Javik will still be on two feet and able to resist and then compensate for the push as he's kicking

Option 2: Its happening WHILE he's kicking or in response to the kick, in which case, Javik's already going to be mid kick. Sure he may not be very stable, but his leg will still be able to reach Cappi's leg before he falls all the way over (this is what i wrote in my post, as it seems the more likely)

Javik boasts an effective technique, but proper technique dictates the opposition of movement for optimum impact; torso back - leg forward with an emphasis on a twisting motion. And perfect technique is out the window anyway after Cappi's telekinetic tug yanks Javik's left hand back.

Maybe i used the wrong word here, and if i did i apologize, but my post expands further on what i meant by it. By technique, i didn't mean Javik's technique was perfect, it was a reference to the mechanics of the kick. At 45˚ angle (or anything close to it) the force is going to be shoving Cappi's leg equally into both the ground and back. An action like this doesn't require much force to break a knee (or at least tear the ligaments)

All of this inherently gives Cappi an advantage of leverage both in strength and timing, as well as the advantage of surprise.

Let's not forget that per what we already agreed on, Cappi's still only halfway through a pivot so the entirety of his leverage consists of what he can generate with one arm. Now, is that enough to knock Javik over? Probably, hence what I wrote in my post, but it still wouldn't be easy to do, and the difficulty of it is what would give Javik time to complete a kick

You did say that Cappi's shove managed to lessen Javik's body weight behind the kick as well as later saying that Javik falls backwards, but still claim the same desired result of a shattered knee. So if Javik's kick is lessened/altered, why would the same result still happen?

I'm about to use an extreme example, but i think it illustrates the principle pretty well. If 4,000 lbs of concrete falls on my head, I'm going to die. Well, if 250 lbs of concrete falls on my head, I'm still going to die. Is it less force? Absolutely. Is it still ENOUGH force though? Yes.

You did say that Cappi's shove managed to lessen Javik's body weight behind the kick as well as later saying that Javik falls backwards, but still claim the same desired result of a shattered knee. So if Javik's kick is lessened/altered, why would the same result still happen? But to begin with, Javik's body weight is not a factor in this equation imo as Javik is swiveling on one leg. If anything, Javik's body weight is solely a factor against the kick's success. Which brings me to the most important factor, I think. And that is Javik's spinning rotation. Even if Javik could resist the shove on one leg, which I strongly don't believe he could, Javik's spinning rotation nullifies the success of that effort and adds to the disorientation factor. Someone who even lightly shoves your right side as you're kicking with your back left leg sends you off balance easily b/c your center axis is between those two points. It's impossible to resist without your center behind the attempt. The way Javik is naturally rotating is sending his weight back over his right, while the way Cappi is rotating is grounding his weight forward - and yet Cappi's right armed push doesn't require Cappi to even remotely finish his rotation while Javik's kick is dependent upon completing the rotation. And if Javik is shoved backwards, which you seem to have accepted, the angle of Javik's kick is changed. And if the angle is changed as I'm describing, then Javik's kick would end up off target to his right and higher than anticipated due to the backwards tilt/lean with rotation; not to mention the separation factor. So a distance is created and an angling is forcing the kick off target by adding to Javik's spinning rotation. And with Javik falling back, his kick would have considerably less impact. Though I'm arguing that that impact doesn't even matter because Javik's kick misses.

So I just read your description of the kick and you aren't envisioning what I'm trying to describe lol. Maybe I'm just bad at describing. This video at 20 seconds is what he's doing. He's picking up his left leg, which will already be on the same side of his body and then just bringing his weight down on top of it with Cappi's leg in the way. Now the push would stop the full body weight, but the leg is still lashing out (and with a lot more force and at closer distance than shown in the video).

Hopefully none of this came across as upset because I'm not :) If you still don't agree, you're welcome to kick it up to an admin if you'd like. (I know normally admin reviews are the result of a lot of hostility, but I don't think that's the case here, I just don't think we agree, which is cool :) ) At least that would keep our thread from stalling out though

 

[Phoenix]

Okay, buddy. Posted before the 48hr mark and submitted my post for a ruling for the sake of getting us moving again since I haven't heard from ya. No hard feelin's @Phœnix. :)

Dang, I was just typing up a reply. :/ I wouldn't have timed you out on an OOC discussion where i didn't get back to you lol ;)

 

[Lamper]

I thought rl had somethin to do with it. You wouldn't leave me hangin ;)

I already submitted for ruling, so I'll just stick to that to keep our thread moving forward and what will be will be no hard feelings. So I'll just say this:

Your video example is what I pictured, but there's a crucial difference from the vid and Javik's kick - and that's the starting point. Javik stepped left as Cappi stepped onto his right into the vacancy Javik opened up. This puts Cappi's right leg at Javik's 4o'clock and the starting point for Javik's kick is back behind him. Javik has to rotate his kick around his then leading right leg.

Also, Cappi's shove wasn't aimed at pushing Javik over with one hand, but to hold a defensive distance with the necessary strength to have any effect against a stronger opponent. It's only due to Javik's kick on one leg that the shove has such a beneficial effect. That's why Cappi's shove prior to the kick is logical. It's a defensive characteristic from the get.

Cappi's telekinetic attack holds Javik's arm back in the opposite direction of Cappi for a moment before the kick. Javik's hand is holding the pistol and doesn't let go for a moment, ergo the pull is on Javik's hand as well. That adds time to Cappi's response. I think, in that short of time, a moment is a moment.

I don't believe Javik could even resist it. It's too fast to predict. Faster than the kick. Javik's committed to the kick. And b/c of the starting point as I said, there's rotation that makes resisting impossible. Especially since the video you provided supports the lean back that I've talked about. To which none of those kicks are shattering bone. (granted shin kicks and not knee kicks)

The angle of the kick is also a precise thing, to my point, which would be an easy near miss in this case. It wouldn't take much force to break a knee, if you don't miss. That is to say, if your form isn't altered/interrupted.

I think it would be easy to knock Javik over in that moment and the shove wouldn't require Cappi to even reach half-pivot. It'd be a push from profile while leaning on that leg as opposed to Javik who's leaning back in rotation on his one leg.

And I would argue that it wouldn't be enough force even if the kick was on target due to the shove since the shove would push Javik's hips back with the fall and therefore minimize it's reach.

But all that said, we're totally cool bro. Just disagree. No hostility. Just bromance lol.

 

[Phoenix]

@Lamper fair points. I don't think i explained what I was envisioning very well, so that's on me. The sidestep is supposed to be a pivot sidestep, but apparently i didn't say that very well. How about this as a compromise: Javik feels the push and so abandons his kick so as to not be knocked over? Saves the admins time and I'll try to describe better next time lol

 

[Lamper]

@Lamper fair points. I don't think i explained what I was envisioning very well, so that's on me. The sidestep is supposed to be a pivot sidestep, but apparently i didn't say that very well. How about this as a compromise: Javik feels the push and so abandons his kick so as to not be knocked over? Saves the admins time and I'll try to describe better next time lol

I'll take that compromise for sure! Do I just tag the admins like this @Brandon Rhea @GABA @Green Ranger to cancel the ruling request? And I do apologize to the admins for the change of heart, but I thought I was up against the 48hr time limit. I was ascared lol

So Phœnix would this mean that Javik doesn't do the lightning and push combo? At least not yet?

 

[Phoenix]

@Lamper well it wasn't my best post lol but I edited

 

[Lamper]

Edited @Phœnix! I put my two cents in and tacked on a Force Push. Kind of like 4:15

 

[Phoenix]

Hmmm so discrepancies time lol. We already agreed in posts 6-7 on here that Javik was in position to kick faster than Cappi had rotated (see Cappi is halfway through a pivot). So that means that he would also be in position to lightning Cappi's exposed side (which would basically be facing him, not requiring the "reach around" you referenced in your post), since he's basically substituting that for the kick. In addition to that, the lightning is starting as Cappi and Javik's blades are still touching/Cappi's still pushing so how would his saber be there to block it if that same saber is busy with Javik's blade? Sure, he could bring it around after Javik finishes backpedaling, but since the lightning and backpedal are at the same time, the lightning will have already started before Cappi can bring his saber around.

Also, Javik is still going to be balanced. The push isn't really going to have any effect at all. Reason: Cappi's pushing with one arm and this is an attack the preempts the kick, so Javik wouldn't be off-balance yet meaning that really, no matter where Javik's legs are it won't be possible to push him over with a single arm.

:) Shalom my friend!

@Lamper