Kashyyyk: Patrol Ambush

[Lamper]

Just to be clear, you said "How about this as a compromise: Javik feels the push and so abandons his kick so as to not be knocked over?" Abandon means in this case aborting a kick that was already started, which makes sense to me since everything is happening way too fast. I have said that Cappi's push would execute as Javik was mid kick, so Cappi's push would barely start before Javik started his kick.

I think you're lumping Javik's multiple actions into one. If Javik's foot doesn't kick at all, which I don't believe is possible nor what I thought we decided on, then Javik would be able to resist the simple push. With Javik's left leg staying put behind him so that both Cappi and Javik are profile to each other, then Javik could easily resist the push and then he could swivel his left foot around forward. But then Javik wouldn't have access to Cappi's exposed side. And since Javik is in the process of swiveling his foot around to a parallel stance, at the very least Javik's shoulders would be pushed back and he'd not be allowed to bring his left hand in close like that either. I've been saying that Cappi's shove would have happened as Javik was mid kick, so for Javik to feel Cappi's push, decide not to kick, and then react with his left hand's lightning is not something that can be done that fast imo.

I don't think their sabers would still be touching if Javik resisted b/c their sabers would naturally be pushed away from each other, not to mention their bodies would be pushed away from each other, if not Javik's then Cappi's. And Javik would be resisting Cappi's push first in one moment before he then released the lightning. Plus, if Cappi's profile, then that means he's behind his lightsaber and pushing his lightsaber out while in the process of turning more behind the lightsaber than before with the left shoulder coming forward.

These are my main points:
Javik initiates the kick, however minutely. He'd need to commit a moment to aborting the kick to put his foot back down and then resist the shove, which means left leg stays back behind him and supports himself before he turns fully forward to use lightning. In that time Cappi's saber has released, is in position, and Cappi is less profile and more behind his saber. Javik has either used lightning before turning close while he's profile to Cappi which means no access to exposed right side or Javik has let a moment pass before using lighting which means Cappi's saber releases and Cappi's saber catches the lightning.

Sorry this is a rough patch in our relationship. I'll buy you flowers and chocolates. Milk chocolates! @Phœnix

 

[Phoenix]

Imagine all of this to the soothing voice of Morgan Freeman. It's all very peaceful ;)

I think you're lumping Javik's multiple actions into one. If Javik's foot doesn't kick at all, which I don't believe is possible nor what I thought we decided on, then Javik would be able to resist the simple push. With Javik's left leg staying put behind him so that both Cappi and Javik are profile to each other, then Javik could easily resist the push and then he could swivel his left foot around forward. But then Javik wouldn't have access to Cappi's exposed side. And since Javik is in the process of swiveling his foot around to a parallel stance, at the very least Javik's shoulders would be pushed back and he'd not be allowed to bring his left hand in close like that either. I've been saying that Cappi's shove would have happened as Javik was mid kick, so for Javik to feel Cappi's push, decide not to kick, and then react with his left hand's lightning is not something that can be done that fast imo.

I'm pretty sure we decided there wouldn't be a kick. If Cappi's push didn't preempt Javik's kick then Cappi would have been hit, but i was given the impression that the push came first, hence why Javik didn't kick.

With Javik's left leg staying put behind him so that both Cappi and Javik are profile to each other, then Javik could easily resist the push and then he could swivel his left foot around forward.

Umm, his left foot is already forward. Per what i said here he was sidestepping and swiveling all at once. That's why i had always thought the kick would connect. He's using his forward foot to kick with. This also means that his left hand doesn't have to come around his body, its already there.

I've been saying that Cappi's shove would have happened as Javik was mid kick, so for Javik to feel Cappi's push, decide not to kick, and then react with his left hand's lightning is not something that can be done that fast imo.

Well the lightning is already in place, since it was prepping earlier. With Javik not doing the kick anymore, you're right, I'm basically substituting in lightning and not doing the kick, based on the interrupting action that you did, which is a very standard thing to do in PvP.

I don't think their sabers would still be touching if Javik resisted b/c their sabers would naturally be pushed away from each other, not to mention their bodies would be pushed away from each other, if not Javik's then Cappi's.

No, because if Cappi's pushing and Javik is pushing back they're going to have blade-lock for a moment which is when the lightning comes in.

Javik initiates the kick, however minutely. He'd need to commit a moment to aborting the kick to put his foot back down and then resist the shove, which means left leg stays back behind him and supports himself before he turns fully forward to use lightning.

So here's the thing, and i already mentioned this above, but the left leg is already forward. That was always the intention and i mentioned the turning/pivot almost immediately after in the OOC in an attempt to clarify, so it was established already (just so you know I'm not making it up, although I wouldn't do that :)). And the kick in the video that i posted earlier was intentionally a front foot kick because that's what this was always supposed to be. Javik's left side is to Cappi atm. So he's not having to bring it or his arm around his body as they're already there. That's why I used the left leg because it was closest.

All that said though, even if (and I'm not ceding this because I still disagree) Cappi was able to get his saber around, there are still concerns I would have with the post as it stands.

1. The lightning was specifically designed to fire in a wide cone so as to go around a lightsaber. Granted, it might not have enough time to spread out completely and so you might be able to block 50% of it with a saber, but the other 50% is going to go around it. I think you might have picked up on that with saying that the arm would be charred, but the problem is, the armor isn't rated for electrical damage and its made of metal so its going to conduct all that energy into Cappi's body. The armor is more likely to amplify than dissipate.

2. I'm not sure that Cappi would be able to summon a blast quite that powerful. That was the Jedi Grandmaster after all, unless you're just envisioning a less powerful version of that.


@Lamper You're cheating on me aren't you! What Jedi scum are you cheating on me with? :eek:
Insert ugly cry face

 

[Lamper]

I'm on my phone, Mr Freeman, and I gotta go so plz forgive the short response.

But your proposal was clear. You said Javik would feel the push and decide to abandon the kick, which means the push would have to first reach a certain extent, Javik would feel that, then decide against the kick, and then react to that decision, which takes time. And Cappi's push started just before the kick, yes, but everything's happening so fast to your previous points that not only did your proposal suggest starting and then aborting the kick but it would be impossible not to have started the kick after everything that has been established. The time difference in starting the shove and starting the kick would be a fraction of a second. And to go back to debating whether or not the kick would have hit is a circular debate at this point with no new information I haven't already addressed.

And your reference to your previous comment about turning only suggests which way Javik's torso, the subject being the aiming of his pistol, was turning while you still called it a side step, and that doesn't put Javik's left foot front with some kind of teleportation, not to mention the circular debate about Cappi's telekinetic pull on the pistol which stalls Javik's turn. Javik still has to push off his left foot. We're starting to go backwards here to re-answer certain points we've already hashed out.

Again, forgive me I'm not at my pc and I gotta go so I'm not addressing everything. But Javik's left foot would not already be forward and imo you're trying to accomplish too much in one moment.

Xoxo @Phœnix

 

[Phoenix]

I don't think we're going to agree on this. I'm sorry if you misinterpreted my post, that was not my intention, but I'm not going to change his entire body position based on a misinterpretation.

Yes i used the term sidestep and as soon as there was any question needing clarifying, I attempted to help clarify. It was in conjunction with rotation like i said from the beginning because that's what this was always supposed to be. His left foot steps outward (sidestep) and his right foot then pivots using the left foot (rotation) giving him a clear shot with his pistol. I'm sorry if you thought it was his torso rotating, but that was never what I meant nor what I said.

I already said in the OOC "I don't think i explained what I was envisioning very well, so that's on me. The sidestep is supposed to be a pivot sidestep, but apparently i didn't say that very well" two days ago. I mentioned the sidestep/rotation in the first clarification post which again I'm sorry if you thought that referred to his torso, but it didn't and I'm not going to change his entire body position because of a misinterpretation.

This is also why I brought up his body weight in the kick. Because if the left leg is forward, body weight plays a role in it. This isn't the most convincing argument, but its just one more thing that indicates my intention from the beginning.

I have never said anything to indicate that his right foot is forward. I never said anything about his left foot coming around his body. Everything I've said for the past two days indicated the opposite. Even the kick in the video that i referenced was using the foot on the same side of his body. That's why I was careful to reference 20 seconds rather than just saying "the kicks in this video." I guess I'll make my next post and we can kick (ha get it because we're arguing about a kick. Ok not funny I know) it up to the admins for a decision. If they think that my post isn't clear enough etc, then I guess that's that, but nothing I have said would indicate his right foot forward.

Likewise, with "abandon the kick" I did mean abandon. In every capacity. He was not going to go through with it. He was going to be done with it. Again, I'm sorry if you thought it meant something else, but if you're going to do an attack that precedes what the other person was doing, the other person changing their plans is just part of that.

I hope you and I have done enough PvP together for you to know that I'm not making this up and that if I actually think I'm wrong I'll cede. *shrug*

@Lamper Hopefully we're still cool despite this disagreement :0

 

[Lamper]

Again, like I said a long time ago, what puts Javik's right foot "forward" is the fact that Cappi steps through Javik's vacated position via sidestep, that Cappi steps just past Javik and therefore just behind Javik, meaning that Cappi's right foot is at Javik's 4oclock at the same time Javik's left foot is sidestepping. To say that Cappi's right foot is closest to Javik's right foot. It's not that you said Javik's right foot was forward, it's what I wrote, it's what Cappi did that puts Javik's right foot closest in relation to Cappi's position, that put's Javik's right foot forward and Javik's left foot back, in relation to Cappi - a factor that Javik could not control. It's not that I'm misinterpreting what you intended for Javik to be doing, it's where Cappi went that determined how Javik's intensions unpredictably and unfavorably turned out. I think this remains to be the unrecognized issue. Javik's intensions, your intensions, were not the end result.

It's not a convincing argument because the video you used shows the guy doing the same kick with the opposite foot forward while Javik's using his back leg to lift his back foot off the ground from behind him and kick forward as his body leans backwards (like all the guys in the video are leaning backwards). You're claiming Javik uses his forward foot while leaning forward. This is not possible in our circumstance. And as we established, as I explained again in the paragraph above, the starting position for Javik, the relative starting angle of Cap to Jav, is fundamentally different than the video and what Javik intended yet nevertheless was how it turned out.

And neither of us has ever said Javik's foot was "coming around his body". I don't know where some of these things are coming from. I just said, again, that Javik would have to turn/rotate to face Cappi since Cappi's right leg, the leg Javik intended to kick, was placed at Javik's 4o'clock. So if Cappi's right leg is just behind Javik's right leg, Javik's left foot, after having stepped left (and if Cappi is closest to Javiks right leg then Javik's left leg is in the opposite direction), would have to come around his own right leg to kick Cappi's right leg. We're repeating the same debate almost verbatim.

And you said Javik would "feel the push and so abandon his kick so as to not be knocked over", meaning Javik would have to feel enough of the push to decide it would be enough to push Javik over, which would lead to the decision to not kick, which would lead to the action of canceling out the kick and replacing the foot, which would then allow for a new action i.e. lightning to be decided upon, which would then be followed up by executing the action. Underlined words indicate a line of successive thought and therefore decision making based off of the prior concept: B because of A and C because of B, meaning A leads to the decision of B and B leads to the action of C so that the original outcome will be changed, not is inherently changed but is forcibly changed due to a new line of successive thoughts, determinations, and actions. All of this, your quoted words, according to you, is supposed to happen before Cappi can even finish pivoting? That seems a little uneven imo. As you say, what Cappi did was an "interruption post". That doesn't mean Javik is capable of instantly countering, and not just start countering but finish countering according to what you've said, without a hiccup before Cappi can even finish the original action as though Javik had expected it all along to begin countering before he's yet to cancel his previous thought, which is what I'm seeing happening. Not only are you claiming that what Cappi's done has zero effect on Javik's actions from the get, which they did, but that Javik is able to react so quickly as to already unleash a follow-up lightning attack before Cappi's even finished a previous action (pivot) that has been in motion for a few posts now. It is important to note that Javik would not "feel" Cappi's push until the push moved enough to even be called a push. Javik can't physically feel a push if the push hasn't actually done some pushing. So what I'm saying is that Javik would "feel" the push as the push is just about reaching its full strength if not at its strongest because its so fast. And for Javik's kick that he aborts would have had to begin if it was going to be as fast as you claimed it was, it would have had to bounce off of Javik's sidestep immediately which means Javik would have already decided on doing the kick as he was sidestepping and the body can't react that quickly to the mind. We agree that Cappi's push is an interruption post action. But what I'm saying is you're being unrealistic in Javik's reaction time to that interruption. When the interruption action starts is not when Javik could feel the action, so when Cappi starts the interruption action is not when Javik reacts to it. When Javik feels it is after Javik has started his kick. This is the point we have to recognize.

But I totally, completely believe that you're not making anything up of course. I don't harbor any hard feelings at all and I'm sure you don't either. I just don't think you're realizing the implication of and recognizing the overextension of Javik's reactions. So if this still hasn't explained my logic or convinced you, not to change anything but to keep things as I believe we originally depicted, then it's in our best interests to get an admin ruling so we can push through these muddy waters and get past the first couple seconds (in real time) of our duel. :p

@Phœnix

 

[Phoenix]

And neither of us has ever said Javik's foot was "coming around his body". I don't know where some of these things are coming from.

Well if Javik's left leg is on the other side of his body like you seem to be implying then it would have to come around his body. I was simply saying that didn't happen, not that you explicitly stated that.

As for what you said here: "Again, like I said a long time ago, what puts Javik's right foot "forward" is the fact that Cappi steps through Javik's vacated position via sidestep, that Cappi steps just past Javik and therefore just behind Javik, meaning that Cappi's right foot is at Javik's 4oclock at the same time Javik's left foot is sidestepping. To say that Cappi's right foot is closest to Javik's right foot."

That doesn't put Javik's right foot closer to Cappi. I'm still not convinced you're getting what Javik is doing. I'm acting it out as I type this and it ends with Javik's left foot closer to Cappi. So Javik takes a 24 inch step to his left. His left foot plants on the ground. His body then rotates to his own right so he's facing Cappi's direction. As he is rotating, his right foot pivots around to behind his left leg. Now his left leg is forward. Overall, he is facing what was his 3 o'clock when the whole thing started. It was always Javik's intention for Cappi to end up at what would have been his 3 or 4 o'clock. Hence, what was written when I said in my post "Cappi’s momentum would carry him past Javik making it hard to redirect and dodge the gunshot." It carries him past Javik to his former 4 o'clock.

As for the lightning. The lightning was already charging up and ready to strike as the kick was happening. It wasn’t going to release until just after the kick, but it’s at the ready already. That means that as soon as Javik stops kicking, the lightning is ready to go. In this case, the kick is interrupted so it’s coming immediately. It’s already in the process and there isn't anything to interrupt it.

You seem to be upset about economy of motion in my post, but the thing is, Javik’s plan isn’t really changing that much. The plan was: 1. kick and 2. Lightning immediately after. His actions now are: 1. Abort kick and 2. lightning. Furthermore, in no part of my post is one section of Javik's body doing more than one thing. On the contrary, Cappi is the one that is having to both push and deflect with the same saber.

There is nothing in your post that would cut the lightning short or stop it. That’s the thing. The only thing that stopping Javik’s kick is going to accomplish is hasten the lightning. You already saw what I was going to write before we agreed to edit out the fall. I was going to have Javik use lightning while falling. The lightning is coming regardless. Even if Javik had been knocked over by the push, the lightning was still incoming. There is no reason that now, after he's not been knocked over that the lightning wouldn't be coming in.


I’m 98% sure that you’re still not going to agree, so feel free to report after you read this. :) This will be my last post in here before an admin looks at it, just as an FYI so that the poor admins don’t have to slog through anymore OOC posts. I apologize to whatever admin has to read through all this OOC. On the bright side, at least we’re not mad at each other like a lot of PvP ends up being.

To summarize what I envision: Javik sidesteps and rotates to face what was (moments ago) his right side with his left foot forward. He starts to lean back ever so slightly as Cappi is halfway through a pivot to face him (as I see it, Cappi’s pivot is slower because he’s still got momentum behind his arm and saber carrying him in the other direction from the swing that he just made that wasn’t stopped, leading his momentum to carry him forward and to Javik’s former 4oclock) and prepares to kick. Simultaneously, his left hand is preparing a cone of lightning. Cappi’s right saber pushes against Javik’s saber and Javik stops leaning back in order to keep from being knocked over. Javik releases the lightning into Cappi’s side as he attempt to reposition his saber from pushing Javik, which it was just doing, to defend his left side. The lightning strikes Cappi in the side since there is no saber to defend, and Cappi did not use Tutaminis or the like to stop it.

 

[Lamper]

Okay buddy. Ruling request submitted. We'll go from there. I'd buy you a beer if I could <3

Here's my summary:
1. Cappi charges Javik.
2. Javik steps left out of the way at the last second to allow Cappi to pass Javik.
2.5. Cappi's right foot is stepping to Javik's 4 o'clock as Javik's left foot is stepping to Javik's 9 o'clock and their sabers clash in crossing as both men turn to face each other at the same rate of rotation.
3. Javik aims pistol in left hand.
4. Cappi telekinetically stops pistol from aiming/stops Javik from turning as Javik squeezes one off and Cappi rips pistol back away.
5. Cappi sharply shoves his right saber into Javik's right saber as Javik starts to kick with his back left leg that had previously stepped left to Javik's 9 o'clock.
6. Javik, on one leg and beginning to lean back, feels Cappi's quick shove half way through the kick and aborts kick so as not to fall, replaces left foot back down to catch balance, and shoots lightning from left hand having not finished turning towards Cappi and while falling back away from Cappi.
7. Cappi's right saber, after finishing the shove with a quick recoil, and Cappi finishing the pivot to face Javik, catches the lightning and Cappi absorbs the lightning.
8. Javik backpedals and Cappi uses tutaminus to send the energy back via force push.

 

[GABA]

Phoenix's post is invalid because it was not within the 48 hour time limit. Lamper's post stands and will make contact with the opponent without defense.

 

[Phoenix]

@GABA post time out still counts if there's a discussion OOC? I was under the impression that was just to keep people from disappearing from the thread?

 

[GABA]

Unless you consulted with the admins previous about a time extension, then no, posts need to made within 48 hours regardless of OoC discussion.

 

[Phoenix]

I'm not going to lie, that ruling strikes me as a little bit unjust, but fine.

Good fight @Lamper

 

[Lamper]

Good fight @Phœnix

 

[Richie B.]

So does this mean the fight is over?

@Lamper @Phœnix

 

[Phoenix]

@Benvenu7 since the ruling disregards everything else that's happened in the thread, I suppose it is.

 

[Mr.BossMan]

Wow, I've read through this whole thread and been following it to see what OOC arguments are like. Plus getting an overview of Manaan rules. And I got to say that is one crock of bullshit. Like seriously that's the first sour taste I'd had for a while about these rules.

Just thought I'd say that.

 

[Phoenix]

Wow, I've read through this whole thread and been following it to see what OOC arguments are like. Plus getting an overview of Manaan rules. And I got to say that is one crock of bullshit. Like seriously that's the first sour taste I'd had for a while about these rules.

Just thought I'd say that.

Unfortunately, I can’t say I disagree with you. Especially since that wasn’t even really what we were asking for a ruling on. The admins ask that people try to work things out OOC rather than go straight to reporting them, yet this is apparently the result of attempting to make their lives easier. It’s a little bit frustrating that this is the first time in my 18 PvP threads that I’ve ever asked for an admin ruling on anything and this is the result. If I lost the ruling based on the actions of my character, I wouldn’t object to that at all, as that would only be fair. Unfortunately that is not the case here.

I won’t go on about this anymore, as I don’t appreciate griping and if I continued, that is all it would be, but I hope it’s considered in the future that this is pretty clearly not what the 48 hr limit is or was ever intended for, but at this point I’m not really sure there’s any recourse since the admins have spoken. I guess to those in timed threads in the future just beware of discussing things OOC. While it's usually been best in my experience, it’s possible that a report might simply be a safer choice.

 

[GABA]

48 hours is 48 hours. If more time was needed, then the FLs and Admins should have been notified. Manaan rules are fairly clear-cut, and a clarification of a post should not take days, nor essays to explain, if it does, then as members, on your part, you need to do better. Manaan rules are soon going to be norm as explained here. Using them now helps us root out further issues related to battle delays.

To be honest, these Kashyyyk battles have been the worst in which I have seen in a long time and most of the issue is, no one will take a fair hit. I would have accepted it from newer/inexperienced members, but that wasn't the case. There was no teamwork, nor any respect for the other player. As members, you can't tell me there was because it doesn't make sense if admins are being called into the first couple posts of the thread to make a ruling on a post. So you may like you have been cheated, played unfair upon, but when someone on the outside is looking at these, its a mess. But don't get me wrong, I have had my fair share of OoC battle stress and going back and forth on posts, I understand and personally, I like the 48 hour rule because eventually there is a point where egos need to be dropped and members need to just roll with it. Then once the battle is done, you note to yourself this member is an unfair player, so you limit when they can play in the sandbox with you, if it all; and eventually word gets around that a certain member plays unfairly (trust me, I know how fast comments get around).

So this is what I would like you guys and everyone else to take from this:
1. Manaan rules are in place for reason, they're not meant to punish anyone, these rules are here for the sake of grief members, FLs, and Admins had to put up with for the past couple years. Again, this is not a personal punishment, so please don't take it as such; rules are rules, but if given enough time in advance, FLs and Admins will be wiling to hear you out.
2. If its taking an essay to explain what your character is doing, then you're doing something wrong, no one should need to read a dissertation of a post in order to understand 2 or 3 actions. With that in mind, re-read your posts, if it seems complicated to you, then its probably complicated to the other player, and will need a rewrite.
3. Take a fair hit. If you're reading the post and you're like 'wow, that's tricky' then its probably worth their merit that you take a hit. Remember, if your character takes hits, then the other player will feel obligated to do so too when its a fair hit.

 

[Phoenix]

@GABA i appreciate the explanation. I'm not sure I can entirely agree that there was no respect in this thread (can't speak to the others) as I think that Lamper and I were quite polite to each other in our posts and didn't ask for a ruling until nearly a week (10 posts) into the thread (which personally I wouldn't classify as the first couple of posts). That said, I think you make several good points about being reasonable, taking hits, and not having essays for OOC posts that I will try to take into future threads.

Edit: Also, apologies for any trouble I have created because of this thread

 

[Lamper]

Phœnix is a very respectful and reasonable person. I'll also try to digest everything you've said, GABA.