What is a Christian?

[Dan.]

At the same time, i've never heard of any great text being written in one go.

It was a history that they wrote, re-wrote (basic editing, after conferring with others who were there, etc), and left to the early church.

 

[Jaqen H'ghar]

Grim, the thing about the Bible is that it is divinely inspired...that is, every author has stated that God revealed it to them.

Muhammad said that god revealed the Quaran to him, does that make it any more legitimate? Joe Smith claimed that jesus came and gave him the plates with which he translated the book of mormon, thus giving it that same legitimacy.

All of the works mesh together,

Not quite, I can list several verses that don't agree within the bible.

and you have to remember that, at the time, Christianity was illegal, punishable by death. These people were preaching illegally. If you are preaching a lie, and people were trying to kill you for it, would you stick with it just to 'forward your own agenda'?

Yes if I believed my agenda to be the correct one and that my "correct" agenda included a better place in the next life. Just because someone has an agenda doesn't mean they are purposely attempting to deceive anyone.

Also, all of the original manuscripts we have can be dated to within 30-40 years of Jesus' death, in the lifetime of the apostles.

Actually the books of the new testament are dated about 100-150 years-ish after jesus died...not traditionally of course, it doesn't sound quite as good to say that infront of a church as a pastor.

Those we have that aren't original are quoted in the letters of the early church fathers, and correspond almost completely to the Current NIV translations.

Never heard that before. I thought the NIV was basically a reworked more modern version of the KJV or the NKJV. Thats my understanding of it anyway. But again, the earliest letters and like that we have are still 150 years old and most of them weren't actually written by multiple authors (at least for the new testement) most were written by Paul and the first few gospels are disputed as to who actually wrote them and how accurate they are.

Also, Sheo, most sensible, modern Christians (my pastor, my parents, my youth group leaders, etc) ARE NOT intolerant of others. We don't say how wrong gays are, or how Muslims or Atheists are all going to hell, and we have a pretty good analogy to witnessing (converting as we call it)

If someone asks you for a drink of water, and the askee throws a pitcher at you, are you going to ask that poerson for a drink again? As you are all mature, intelligent human beings, I'm not going to bother explaining that out. All I'll say is, at my church we don't pull that stuff.

I know like I said to Niner, you was a generalization of those who act in the way which I described. By no means am I saying anything in the bible is less valid in terms of things you can learn from it. There are good things to be had from it that's obvious, but it isn't necessarily accurate in terms of historical value nor is it entirely needed for said moral values to arrive in various individuals.

It's this need for complete and total authenticity and reliability that I have problems with when it comes to people bringing up things about the bible. I know of far to many people who have died because the bible or their pastor has said to trust god instead of their medication and I personally know the effects the bible can have when used to berate ones own ego and being told that unless you believe what we do then your just not good enough for your loving creator and he's going to send you to hell. It's all in how it's used.

 

[Green Ranger]

It was a history that they wrote, re-wrote (basic editing, after conferring with others who were there, etc), and left to the early church.

I wouldn't call it exactly a history, because I don't think i've ever read in any history texts about someone coming back to life. Obviously that's another argument for another time, but to be realistic, if you start putting that stuff in, it's not history. And for it to be so well written, easily understandable and so on, it'd require several drafts in my opinion. It's not like they wrote it all in a single go over the course of a week and handed it over, otherwise we wouldn't be able to understand a word of it.

 

[Dan.]

Not quite, I can list several verses that don't agree within the bible.

Actually the books of the new testament are dated about 100-150 years-ish after jesus died...not traditionally of course, it doesn't sound quite as good to say that infront of a church as a pastor.

Which verses? I'd be interested to know. One of the signs of authenticity within that branch of science say that a text is more convincing if it contradicts itself. However, I strongly doubt that any of these contradicting verses affect any of the doctrines of Christianity.

I know like I said to Niner, you was a generalization of those who act in the way which I described. By no means am I saying anything in the bible is less valid in terms of things you can learn from it. There are good things to be had from it that's obvious, but it isn't necessarily accurate in terms of historical value nor is it entirely needed for said values to arrive in various individuals.

Awesome.

It's this need for complete and total authenticity and reliability that I have problems with when it comes to people bringing up things about the bible. I know of far to many people who have died because the bible or their pastor has said to trust god instead of their medication and I personally know the effects the bible can have when used to berate ones own ego and being told that unless you believe what we do then your just not good enough for your loving creator and he's going to send you to hell. It's all in how it's used.

A.) If it's not completely authentic and reliable, that's moderately ok with me. I have what I need. I feel my creator, I know his love, and I try to live it every day. Not easy, but I try.

B.) Really? That's sad. Horribly sad. No wonder you're an atheist. I feel for you, man. Anywho, I'm not sure why a pastor would do that. When I had appendicitis, my pastor ATM prayed with me. They don't usually interfere with these sorts of things, at least that I know of.

C.) That's very cynical. Like, mouy mouy big cynical, bordering on ignorance.

 

[Ser Gregor]

C.) That's very cynical. Like, mouy mouy big cynical, bordering on ignorance.

Cynical, yes, the truth, yes...

 

[Dan.]

Cynical, yes, the truth, yes...

You forgot oversimplification. Also, please don't say things like that. It's very rude, and slightly arrogant. It's saying 'I'm right, and you're wrong'. It makes me want to shout obscenities at my PC.

 

[Ser Gregor]

Please don't say things like that. It's very rude, and slightly arrogant. It's saying 'I'm right, and you're wrong'. It makes me want to shout obscenities at my PC.

When you boil it down, what he said is correct. If I don't believe in the Christian God I'll go to hell. If God thought anything of me, he wouldn't send me to hell. I'm not 'good' enough for his heaven.

 

[Dan.]

When you boil it down, what he said is correct. If I don't believe in the Christian God I'll go to hell. If God thought anything of me, he wouldn't send me to hell. I'm not 'good' enough for his heaven.

UBER CHURCHY RESPONSE WARNING. You are forgetting the existence of Sin. (not trying to be funny) Sin is the opposite of God, and cannot enter Heaven. One who is exposed to God's love and a chance for Christian salvation and has rejected it is still occupied by Sin. That's the general consensus among Christians. We believe that God loves you very much, but Sin still is a part of you if you do not accept God as your salvation and creator.

 

[Green Ranger]

UBER CHURCHY RESPONSE WARNING. You are forgetting the existence of Sin. (not trying to be funny) Sin is the opposite of God, and cannot enter Heaven. One who is exposed to God's love and a chance for Christian salvation and has rejected it is still occupied by Sin.

Wait, so ministers who have sex with little boys aren't sinning because they're exposed to God's love? I'm honestly confused here, maybe it was just your phrasing.

 

[Ru the Boatswain]

Also why do they use sin? It's an archery term.

 

[Dan.]

Wait, so ministers who have sex with little boys aren't sinning because they're exposed to God's love? I'm honestly confused here, maybe it was just your phrasing.

I dunno, man. I'm just a fifteen year old trying to strengthen my faith. I don't have all the answers. Ask a theologian. Or, ask all of your questions, and I'll talk to my pastor and see if I can answer them, if you're honestly curious.

 

[Sovereign]

Wait, so ministers who have sex with little boys aren't sinning because they're exposed to God's love? I'm honestly confused here, maybe it was just your phrasing.

No, pedophilia is a Sin as well.

I don't know if you're doing this on purpose.

 

[Green Ranger]

I dunno, man. I'm just a fifteen year old trying to strengthen my faith. I don't have all the answers. Ask a theologian. Or, ask all of your questions, and I'll talk to my pastor and see if I can answer them, if you're honestly curious.

Get back to me on that one. Because the way i'm intepreting it at the moment is as long as you hold God's love in your heart, you can do whatever you want and be immune to Sin.

 

[Dan.]

Get back to me on that one. Because the way i'm intepreting it at the moment is as long as you hold God's love in your heart, you can do whatever you want and be immune to Sin.

Basically, I think you're right. But you shouldn't use that excuse, because (OMG) it's not what Jesus would do!!!!!:CHappy: Jesus preached repentance, as well as asking forgiveness. There is nothing you can do , sin wise, that would make God not love you.

 

[Jaqen H'ghar]

Which verses? I'd be interested to know. One of the signs of authenticity within that branch of science say that a text is more convincing if it contradicts itself. However, I strongly doubt that any of these contradicting verses affect any of the doctrines of Christianity.

MK 16:14-19 The Ascension took place (presumably from a room) while the disciples were together seated at a table, probably in or near Jerusalem.
LK 24:50-51 It took place outdoors, after supper, at Bethany (near Jerusalem).
AC 1:9-12 It took place outdoors, after 40+ days, at Mt. Olivet.
MT 28:16-20 No mention is made of an ascension, but if it took place at all, it must have been from a mountain in Galilee since MT ends there.)

LK 1:15 John the Baptist had the Holy Spirit from before his birth or the birth of Jesus.
LK 1:41 Elizabeth had it long before Jesus went away.
LK 1:67 So did Zechariah.
LK 2:25 So did Simeon.
LK 11:13 It is obtained by prayer (presumably at any time).
JN 7:39, JN 16:7, AC 1:3-5 The Holy Spirit cannot come into the world until after Jesus has departed.

LK 8:12 The Devil causes unbelief.
MK 4:11-12 Jesus is responsible for unbelief in at least some cases.
2TH 2:11-12 God is ultimately responsible for unbelief in at least some cases.

LK 14:26 No one can be a disciple of Jesus unless he hates his parents, wife, children, brothers and sisters.
1JN 3:15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer.
1JN 4:20 If anyone claims to love God but hates his brother, he is a liar.

LK 18:9-14 Do not boast of your virtue.
RO 11:20, 1PE 5:5 Do not be proud.
RO 15:17, 2CO 1:12, HE 3:6, 2CO 2:14, 5:12, 11:17 Paul boasts of his faith and says that one should be proud of it.

LK 22:3-23 Satan entered Judas before the supper.
JN 13:27 It was during the supper.

LK 23:43 Jesus promises one of those crucified with him that they will be together, that very day, in Paradise.
JN 20:17, AC 1:3 Jesus was not raised until the third day and did not ascend until at least forty days later.

LK 23:55-56 The women followed Joseph to the tomb, saw how the body had been laid, then went to prepare spices with which to anoint the body.
JN 19:39-40 Joseph brought spices with him (75 or a 100 lbs.) and annointed the body (as the women should have noticed).

JN 1:1, 10:30 Jesus and God are one.
JN 14:28 God is greater than Jesus.

JN 1:1 Jesus was God incarnate.
AC 2:22 Jesus was a man approved by God.

JN 3:17, 8:15, 12:47 Jesus does not judge.
JN 5:22, 5:27-30, 9:39, AC 10:42, 2CO 5:10 Jesus does judge.

JN 5:22 God does not judge.
RO 2:2-5, 3:19, 2TH 1:5, 1PE 1:17 God does judge.

JN 5:24 Believers do not come into judgement.
MT 12:36, RO 5:18, 2CO 5:10, HE 9:27, 1PE 1:17, JU 1:14-15, RE 20:12-13 All persons (including believers) come into judgement.

JN 5:31 Jesus says that if he bears witness to himself, his testimony is not true.
JN 8:14 Jesus says that even if he bears witness to himself, his testimony is true.

JN 5:38-47 Men have a choice as to whether or not to receive Jesus.
JN 6:44 No one can come to Jesus unless he is drawn by the Father.

JN 7:38 Jesus quotes a statement that he says appears in scripture (i.e., the OT).
(No such statement is found in the OT.)

JN 10:27-29 None of Jesus' followers will be lost.
1TI 4:1 Some of them will be lost.

JN 12:31 The Devil is the ruler (or "prince") of this world.
1CO 10:26, RE 1:5 Jesus is the ruler of kings--the earth is his.

JN 12:32 Jesus implies that all persons will be saved.
1TI 2:3-4, 2PE 3:9 God wants all to be saved.
JN 12:40, AC 2:21, 2:39, RO 9:27, 10:13 Some will not be saved.
RE 14:1-4 Heaven will be inhabited by 144,000 virgin men (only?).

JN 13:36 Peter asks Jesus where he is going.
JN 14:5 Thomas does the same.
JN 16:5 Jesus says that none of them have asked him where he is going.

JN 17:12 Jesus has lost none of his disciples other than Judas.
JN 18:9 Jesus has lost none, period.

JN 17:12 Mentions a "son of perdition" as appearing in scripture (meaning the OT).
(Note: There is no "son of perdition" mentioned in the OT.)

JN 18:37 Jesus came into the world to bear witness to the truth.
RO 1:18-20 The truth has always been evident.

JN 20:9 Jesus quotes a statement that he says appears in scripture (meaning the OT). (No such statement is found in the OT.)

JN 20:22 In his first resurrection appearance before the assembled disciples, Jesus gives them the Holy Spirit.
AC 1:3-5, AC 2:1-4 The Holy Spirit was received much later (on Pentecost.)

JN 21:25 The world probably could not contain the books if all that Jesus did were to be recorded.
AC 1:1 The author of Acts has already written about all that Jesus began to do.

AC 5:19, 12:6-11 The disciples take part in a jailbreak made possible by an angel.
AC 5:40-42 The disciples disobey the Council and continue to teach and preach Jesus.
RO 13:1-4, 1PE 2:13-15 Obey the laws of men (i.e., government). It is the will of God.

AC 5:29 Obey God, not men.
RO 13:1-4, 1PE 2:13-15 Obey the laws of men (i.e., government). It is the will of God.

AC 9:7 Those present at Paul's conversion heard the voice but saw no one.
AC 22:9 They saw a light but did not hear a voice.

AC 9:7 Those present at Paul's conversion stood.
AC 26:14 They fell to the ground.

AC 9:19-28 Shortly after his conversion, Paul went to Damascus, then Jerusalem where he was introduced to the Apostles by Barnabas, and there spent some time with them (going in and out among them).
GA 1:15-20 He made the trip three years later, then saw only Peter and James.

AC 9:23 The governor attempted to seize Paul.
2CO 11:32 It was the Jews who tried to seize Paul.

AC 10:34, RO 2:11 God shows no partiality. He treats all alike.
RO 9:11-13 God hated Esau and loved Jacob even before their birth.

AC 10:34, RO 2:11 God shows no partiality. He treats all alike.
RO 9:18 God has mercy on whoever he chooses, etc.

AC 16:6 The Holy Spirit forbids preaching in Asia.
AC 19:8-10 Paul preaches in Asia anyway.

AC 20:35 Quotes Jesus as having said: "It is more blessed to give than to receive." (No such statement of Jesus is found elsewhere in the Bible.)

RO 2:12 All who have sinned without the law will perish without the law.
RO 4:15 Where there is no law there is no transgression (sin).

RO 2:13 Doers of the law will be justified.
RO 3:20, GA 3:11 They will not be justified.

RO 2:15 The law is written on the heart. Conscience teaches right from wrong.
1JN 2:27 Anointing by Jesus teaches right from wrong.

RO 4:9 Faith was reckoned to Abraham as righteousness.
JA 2:21 Abraham was justified by works (which made his faith perfect).

RO 10:11 (An alleged OT quote; no such statement in the OT.)

RO 14:21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor anything that might cause your brother to stumble or be offended.
CN 2:16 Let no one pass judgement on you in matters of food and drink.

1CO 7:8-9 Widows should not marry (although it is better to marry than burn).
1TI 5:14 Young widows should marry, bear children, rule the household, etc..

1CO 8:4 There is only one God.
2CO 4:4 Satan is God of this world (therefore there are at least two gods).

1CO 10:33 Paul says that he tries to please men (so they might be saved).
GA 1:10 Paul says he would not be a servant of Christ if he tried to please men.

2CO 12:16 Paul says that he does use trickery.
1TH 2:3 Paul says that he does not use trickery.

GA 6:2 Bear one another's burdens.
GA 6:5 Bear your own burden.

1TH 2:2 God gave Paul the courage to continue his work.
1TH 2:17-18 Satan hindered Paul.
(Note: Who is stronger, Satan or God?)

1TI 1:15 Paul says that he is the foremost of sinners.
1JN 3:8-10 He who commits sin is of the Devil. Children of God do not sin.

TI 6:20, 2TI 2:14-16, 3:1-7 Do not argue with an unbeliever.
2JN 1:10-11 Anyone who even greets an unbeliever shares his wicked work.
1PE 3:15 Always be ready to answer any man concerning your faith.

JA 4:5 (Quotes an alleged scripture [OT] verse not found in the OT.)

RE 8:7 All of the grass on earth is burned up, and then ...
REV 9:4 An army of locusts, which is about to be turned loose on the earth, is instructed not to harm the grass.


Theres more but I didn't feel like scrolling all the way down the list...however I've read the page over more than once.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.html

A.) If it's not completely authentic and reliable, that's moderately ok with me. I have what I need. I feel my creator, I know his love, and I try to live it every day. Not easy, but I try.

B.) Really? That's sad. Horribly sad. No wonder you're an atheist. I feel for you, man. Anywho, I'm not sure why a pastor would do that. When I had appendicitis, my pastor ATM prayed with me. They don't usually interfere with these sorts of things, at least that I know of.

C.) That's very cynical. Like, mouy mouy big cynical, bordering on ignorance.

A. That's good, I'm glad. Not everyone is as accepting as that and freak out when anything in the bible is questioned.

B. It happens more often than you'd think. Here http://whatstheharm.net/faithhealing.html

Again, I'm not saying everyone who is christian or religious does it. It's just that even if 1 person dies because of someones belief I think it's something to raise a red flag about.

C. It's not really cynical at all, it's just the truth of the matter. As nexus said.

UBER CHURCHY RESPONSE WARNING. You are forgetting the existence of Sin. (not trying to be funny) Sin is the opposite of God, and cannot enter Heaven. One who is exposed to God's love and a chance for Christian salvation and has rejected it is still occupied by Sin.

So the all powerful god is incapable of doing something? (In this case he can not be around sin) That doesn't really sit right with me...My mother might have an incurable disease that can spread at rapidly alarming rates but I love her and I'd still sit there beside her in a bio-hazard suit or come see her even if it was behind a glass wall.

 

[Ser Gregor]

You do that, I'll do what I want in life, live full, and worry about the after-life after life.

 

[Sovereign]

Basically, I think you're right.

No he's not. How can you even call yourself Christian? Ever heard of Mortal Sins and Venial Sins? You can't just do anything and get away with it.

 

[Dan.]

No he's not. How can you even call yourself Christian? Ever heard of Mortal Sins and Venial Sins? You can't just do anything and get away with it.

I'm Protestant, not Catholic. That's how. Both of those are Catholic things.

And Sheo, that's very interesting. As I've said before, I'm not an expert, just a 15 year old dude trying to answer questions. I think I'm failing. One thing I noticed is that many of your verses are from the OT, and Jesus said that we don't have to follow many of the OT laws. Also, that's a very biased source. I'll print those verses out and look them up myself if I can. I'm kinda impatient and absentminded.

As for the faith-healing stuff, that's fringe stuff. (not the show, actual fringe.) Mainstream Churchs would never do that.

Thank you for the analogy about your mother and the disease, that's exactly like what being denied entrance into heaven is, you dying of an incurable disease, and God is watching from behind a glass wall. Hell is total separation from God.

Also, Nexus, I don't worry much either. I'm not the most pious person you'll ever meet, but I try to be a good person. It's hard.

 

[Sovereign]

I'm Protestant, not Catholic. That's how. Both of those are Catholic things.

Oh, sorry.

 

[Jaqen H'ghar]

I'm Protestant, not Catholic. That's how. Both of those are Catholic things.

And Sheo, that's very interesting. As I've said before, I'm not an expert, just a 15 year old dude trying to answer questions. I think I'm failing. One thing I noticed is that many of your verses are from the OT, and Jesus said that we don't have to follow many of the OT laws. Also, that's a very biased source. I'll print those verses out and look them up myself if I can. I'm kinda impatient and absentminded.

As for the faith-healing stuff, that's fringe stuff. (not the show, actual fringe.) Mainstream Churchs would never do that.

Thank you for the analogy about your mother and the disease, that's exactly like what being denied entrance into heaven is, you dying of an incurable disease, and God is watching from behind a glass wall. Hell is total separation from God.

Also, Nexus, I don't worry much either. I'm not the most pious person you'll ever meet, but I try to be a good person. It's hard.

It's not a biased source. If you can find me a christian website that purposely lists contradictions in the bible then by all means go for it.

My point was with that analogy which you so gracefully dodged is that god is all powerful. He's not human. He can do anything. Or he's supposed to be able to.

So then if we are to assume he can do anything, he should be able to be around sin, in my above analogy god could just cure the sick person, or he could stand in the room and be perfectly fine.

However his excuse for the punishment of eternal hell is that he can't be around sin. Ergo he either can't do everything, or he simply doesn't love everyone and therefore isn't omni-benevolent. (if you of course believe he exists) However even if he couldn't be around sin, if he loved everyone couldn't he simply create a place for them to go that isn't eternal torment? I mean if I love someone, I'm not going to shoot them in the face if they don't love me back (unless of course I'm the psycho stalkerish type but thats another thing entirely)