Feminism and Gender Equality

Kiro said:

Actually, I disagree, and let me quote something I first heard from a comedy radio show host.

"If you want to treat everyone equally, you should treat them all differently." Like you can't go "Hey bro, listen about this super hot chick I just banged last night" to a female friend, now can you?

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Actually, I am the friend that that happens to, except with reversed genders.

Outlander said:

Actually, I am the friend that that happens to, except with reversed genders.

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This either means you're female, or they are, and they talk to you.

#OutlanderOrOutlandina?

Nor'baal said:

This either means you're female, or they are, and they talk to you.

#OutlanderOrOutlandina?

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They're female and talk to me about that stuff.

Xtremenerd said:

whats wrong with egalitarianism? thats what I am.

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There's nothing wrong with it. But like I said earlier in this thread, when the implication is that "egalitarianism" is better or more appropriate than "feminism," it's like saying "All Lives Matter" instead of "Black Lives Matter." You can certainly call yourself an egalitarian, there's no harm there, just as long as it isn't used to diminish or obscure what people are trying to say when they call themselves feminists. Which isn't what you did in your post, I'm just saying all of this to illustrate a point.

The thing is I feel like Feminism is good cause, but Its been taken over and influenced by radical feminists who have degraded its cause and twisting its purpose, I genuinely do not know why first world feminists still say they are faced with systematic sexism, and that they live in rape cultures and other things like that. the pay gap has been debunked and more women graduate from college then man, have equal representation on social media websites, and in pc. Feminism isnt needed in first world countries any more, but thats just my opinion, and I hope none of yall label me a sexist for that, some people have.

Xtremenerd said:

The thing is I feel like Feminism is good cause, but Its been taken over and influenced by radical feminists who have degraded its cause and twisting its purpose, I genuinely do not know why first world feminists still say they are faced with systematic sexism, and that they live in rape cultures and other things like that. the pay gap has been debunked and more women graduate from college then man, have equal representation on social media websites, and in pc. Feminism isnt needed in first world countries any more, but thats just my opinion, and I hope none of yall label me a sexist for that, some people have.

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Let me ask - have you read the thread? All of the questions you posed have been answered to some degree or another, and you'll see why there is still systemic sexism (the pay gap has not been debunked - it's real), why there is a rape culture, and why feminism is still needed in the industrialized world.

You'll also see we spent a lot of time dismissing the idea that feminism has "been taken over and influenced by radical feminists," because it hasn't.

I think the biggest fight is getting rid of the sexual harassment that is part of our society.

I would agree that the paygap issue is resolving itself (note: It is not yet resolved), and in some sectors is already resolved (note: government institutions and some banks in the UK), and more women go go to university than men.

However, and this sounds corny, the fight for liberalism doesn't just stop once it starts taking shape. People do need to be aware of rifts on society, regardless of if they think they don't exist anymore.

There is sexism in the first world, much less than they're used to be of course, but it's still there - toward men to a lesser extent and toward women.

Nor'baal said:

Woah there @Raydo

As an English, white, Christian, middle class male with wealthy parents - who also attended an all boys private school - I'll have you know I have a very well rounded outlook on life.

^hey guys, I just made a joke at my own expense. But seriously though, my family history (especially on dads side) is like a who's who of historical douchenozzle.

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As an English, white (with Welsh, Jewish and Irish roots), Norse Neopagan, poor working class male with poor parents -who attended a comprehensive school - I don't think all Conservative supporters need a healthy dose of Mjolnir to the face (the one's up top though...). ;)

My own immediate family history is like a Game of Thrones episode though...

Pureblood-Sin said:

As an English, white (with Welsh, Jewish and Irish roots), Norse Neopagan, poor working class male with poor parents -who attended a comprehensive school - I don't think all Conservative supporters need a healthy dose of Mjolnir to the face (the one's up top though...). ;)

My own immediate family history is like a Game of Thrones episode though...

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But, are you worthy, to lift Mjolnir?

Nor'baal said:

I think the biggest fight is getting rid of the sexual harassment that is part of our society.

I would agree that the paygap issue is resolving itself (note: It is not yet resolved), and in some sectors is already resolved (note: government institutions and some banks in the UK), and more women go go to university than men.

However, and this sounds corny, the fight for liberalism doesn't just stop once it starts taking shape. People do need to be aware of rifts on society, regardless of if they think they don't exist anymore.

There is sexism in the first world, much less than they're used to be of course, but it's still there - toward men to a lesser extent and toward women.

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And when the leading candidate for president of the United States has a history of saying horrendous things about women, including during his campaign for the presidency, then it shows pretty clearly how societal advancement and reforms can slip.

Brandon Rhea said:

And when the leading candidate for president of the United States has a history of saying horrendous things about women, including during his campaign for the presidency, then it shows pretty clearly how societal advancement and reforms can slip.

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God Damn it Hillary!

....hue hue hue.

I have skimmed through it, and I have read the responses, but I think first world countries get far less credit than they deserve in terms of gender inequality, look at the middle east, its a hell hole for women there, rape is basically legal since it takes two women to override one man's testament in the legal system, in the U.S and other first world countries, there are no such laws as these, and the gender pay gap is only real due to the fact that women studies majors dont earn as much as engineering majors. Women can go into engineering career fields, but some dont and some pick women's studies, no one is blocking them from choosing scientific or, mathematical careers they just dont choose them as much as men.

Xtremenerd said:

I have skimmed through it, and I have read the responses, but I think first world countries get far less credit than they deserve in terms of gender inequality, look at the middle east, its a hell hole for women there, rape is basically legal since it takes two women to override one man's testament in the legal system, in the U.S and other first world countries, there are no such laws as these, and the gender pay gap is only real due to the fact that women studies majors dont earn as much as engineering majors. Women can go into engineering career fields, but some dont and some pick women's studies, no one is blocking them from choosing scientific or, mathematical careers they just dont choose them as much as men.

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Yeah, but at this point you're just playing Oppression Olympics, no? Does the fact that it's worse in the Middle East mean that the problems in the industrialized world don't actually exist? Or don't matter?

You can hold both points of view. They're not in competition. You can acknowledge the problems facing the industrialized world and fight to try to correct them, and you can acknowledge that the problems in the Middle East are way worse. But that doesn't mean that the problems in our society aren't bad and in need of correction.

Also, yes, many women go into STEM fields, but that doesn't change the fact that, from a young age, girls are discouraged from joining those fields. The ones who do make it into those fields are very much an exception, because they overcame the lack of encouragement and opportunity that the education system failed to give them. So yes, you are correct that many women don't choose STEM - but you can't ignore the societal undercurrent where women are taught, generally indirectly but sometimes directly, that the STEM field is for men.

Nor'baal said:

But, are you worthy, to lift Mjolnir?

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Going from the perspective of the old tales, any schmuck with an iron gauntlet could hold it; why do you think Thor had to dress in drag to get it back from a Jotun? :P

i guess this is a topic we are going to have to agree to disagree on :D

Brandon Rhea said:

Yeah, but at this point you're just playing Oppression Olympics, no? Does the fact that it's worse in the Middle East mean that the problems in the industrialized world don't actually exist? Or don't matter?

You can hold both points of view. They're not in competition. You can acknowledge the problems facing the industrialized world and fight to try to correct them, and you can acknowledge that the problems in the Middle East are way worse. But that doesn't mean that the problems in our society aren't bad and in need of correction.

Also, yes, many women go into STEM fields, but that doesn't change the fact that, from a young age, girls are discouraged from joining those fields. The ones who do make it into those fields are very much an exception, because they overcame the lack of encouragement and opportunity that the education system failed to give them. So yes, you are correct that many women don't choose STEM - but you can't ignore the societal undercurrent where women are taught, generally indirectly but sometimes directly, that the STEM field is for men.

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All I really got from this is that I really want the Oppression Olympics to be some kind of satirical sporting event.

Okay I just went for a run and got all that sweet emotion out of me. While I was running I thought long and hard about this thread and what others have said. And what I said to others.

I am going to apologize to the people I need to apologize to. And without calling names, I hope you know who you are.
I am sorry, truly I am, to anyone who took offense from anything I have said.

So I came to two conclusions while I was on my run.

1. I don't know anything about the hardships some people face all around the world. Including some members on this Site. So I need to treat their personal opinions equal to mine own. There is a quote I like and it goes something like this: "Everybody you meet is fighting a hard battle." I will learn from this and try to respect others.

2. I also learned that sometimes I let my emotions get in the way of my thinking. Which is bad. It leads to stale mate arguments where people end up fighting others who do not have the same way of thinking as themselves.

Now I have a hard time writing down my thoughts into clear precise sentences. So I am going to hang back on this thread for about a day. In the mean time I will speak to the most influential woman in my life about "feminist" and "feminism" and I will learn her perspective. She is a woman and she grew up in a time where women were treated far different than they are today.

I have learned much from her in my life and I am sure she will help guide me in this.

I'll talk to you all tomorrow and hopefully I'll come back with a better point of view.

However I challenge all of you to do the same, try to walk in someone else's shoes.

BossMan out.

Brandon Rhea said:

Let me ask - have you read the thread? All of the questions you posed have been answered to some degree or another, and you'll see why there is still systemic sexism (the pay gap has not been debunked - it's real), why there is a rape culture, and why feminism is still needed in the industrialized world.

You'll also see we spent a lot of time dismissing the idea that feminism has "been taken over and influenced by radical feminists," because it hasn't.

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What? No, the wage gap is a myth. It's like the patriarchy, or the tooth fairy. It's fake. Fictional.

It's also real. We in doublespeak town boys and girls. Let me explain the actual reason this shit isn't even something to complain about:

The gap in pay between men in women working for the same job, doing the same work, in the same area does not exist.
It does not exist. There are laws to protect anyone who is being paid less than someone else based on any aspect of themselves they can't control, like gender or skin color, or that weird mole growing on your face. If this was the case, no companies would hire men. That'd be stupid. A woman can do the same work and you can pay her less. Profit.

Now for the actual gap. It's 9.4%, or 14.2% (These are stats I remember from like 2014 so they might be larger or smaller, but it doesn't really matter, as you'll see in a second), depending on if the ONS wants to use the mean or median that day, in favor of the penis (Using the Mean, well, means that the numbers are skewed because of some ceo earning 75 mil a year vs. some chick in Toronto cleaning toilets). Why is that? Well, the ONS' survey measures male and female earnings, sure, but employment type isn't taken into account. The issue isn't that female engineers are getting paid less than male engineers, it's that female teachers are getting paid less than male engineers. Women make different choices. Apparently, more women find fulfillment in jobs that happen to pay less. This means there will be a gap in pay on average, because more men choose to be in higher paying jobs, and more women choose to be in lower paying jobs.

It's not the patriarchy, it's not some scheme a bunch of old dudes in a circle came up with to make sure women are paid less on average, it's just how it is. People want to change that, apparently, which is weird to me because that is the essence of equality (in this context). Men and women are allowed the same opportunities and they choose different ones. That is okay. They are free to do so. So, once again:

If wage gap and gender discrimination didn't exist in the workplace...

Then why are there studies still being done?

Though wage gap has gotten better, and the gap is narrowing, its still not great.

GABA said:

If wage gap and gender discrimination didn't exist in the workplace...

Then why are there studies still being done?

Though wage gap has gotten better, and the gap is narrowing, its still not great.

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Literally was about to post a couple of those.