Feminism and Gender Equality

[Noirceur]

Okay I just went for a run and got all that sweet emotion out of me. While I was running I thought long and hard about this thread and what others have said. And what I said to others.

I am going to apologize to the people I need to apologize to. And without calling names, I hope you know who you are.
I am sorry, truly I am, to anyone who took offense from anything I have said.

So I came to two conclusions while I was on my run.

1. I don't know anything about the hardships some people face all around the world. Including some members on this Site. So I need to treat their personal opinions equal to mine own. There is a quote I like and it goes something like this: "Everybody you meet is fighting a hard battle." I will learn from this and try to respect others.

2. I also learned that sometimes I let my emotions get in the way of my thinking. Which is bad. It leads to stale mate arguments where people end up fighting others who do not have the same way of thinking as themselves.

Now I have a hard time writing down my thoughts into clear precise sentences. So I am going to hang back on this thread for about a day. In the mean time I will speak to the most influential woman in my life about "feminist" and "feminism" and I will learn her perspective. She is a woman and she grew up in a time where women were treated far different than they are today.

I have learned much from her in my life and I am sure she will help guide me in this.

I'll talk to you all tomorrow and hopefully I'll come back with a better point of view.

However I challenge all of you to do the same, try to walk in someone else's shoes.

BossMan out.

For the record, I was never offended by any of your responses, but I'm a hard but to crack, so it is very kind of you to offer apologies to people who may have been offended. I, speaking for myself, can respect someone who says their facts upfront and bluntly (regardless of wether they're right or wrong).
I also commend you for giving a shot to changing your opinion, not many people do so and it deserves recognition. And when you have thought everything out and formed a new, more though-of idea, please do share it here. I, and I hope others, will be here to discuss it with you. Godspeed.

@Sinbi

http://sociology.about.com/od/Ask-a-Sociologist/fl/Yes-the-Gender-Pay-Gap-is-Real.htm
http://www.aauw.org/research/the-simple-truth-about-the-gender-pay-gap/
http://www.ibtimes.com/gender-wage-...ens-earnings-growing-faster-womens-us-2149236
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/gender-wage-gap_n_3941180.html
http://ec.europa.eu/justice/gender-equality/gender-pay-gap/index_en.html
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-35553573 (if it didnt exist, why would employers be made to do this?)
http://www.weforum.org/reports/global-gender-gap-report-2014

 

[Jax Vos]

If wage gap and gender discrimination didn't exist in the workplace...

Then why are there studies still being done?

Though wage gap has gotten better, and the gap is narrowing, its still not great.

To put my own views on this. What do you define as the wage gap? Legally you are required to start at the same pay as a man in your position. You are also required to get raises based solely on your performance. Some may not get raises at the same time or for the same amount usually based upon a situation: possibly one of you was out more than the other. A good example that I like to point out in this discussion is that when it comes to the wage gap between two coworkers doing the same job is that women are more likely to take time off for maternity leave and for their children than men on average. Now I'm not saying that men don't take paternity leave or take time off for their kids, but it should be noted that men are rarely offered paternity leave and when it is available they rarely use it. Many places do not offer paid maternity leave so you have to bare in mind that unless you're working at a set yearly pay you're not going to make the same amount of money as a man who didn't take that time off. Obviously there are set yearly wages which are usually determined based upon a person's performance and what is available as their base pay for that position, but rarely is a man given a raise over a woman unless she does not do as well of a job.

Studies are being done all the time on everything. I could find a study that says that most religious people hate gay people. That is not true and I will not accept that. But guess what, I can also find a study that says that all third-wave feminists are lesbians who want to get rid of men. Also not true and unacceptable. The point here is that you'll find studies proving things one way or another. Of course you're only going to find the ones that you want to find, and those are usually the ones that you want to show to prove your point.

 

[Outlander]

To put my own views on this. What do you define as the wage gap? Legally you are required to start at the same pay as a man in your position. You are also required to get raises based solely on your performance. Some may not get raises at the same time or for the same amount usually based upon a situation: possibly one of you was out more than the other. A good example that I like to point out in this discussion is that when it comes to the wage gap between two coworkers doing the same job is that women are more likely to take time off for maternity leave and for their children than men on average. Now I'm not saying that men don't take paternity leave or take time off for their kids, but it should be noted that men are rarely offered paternity leave and when it is available they rarely use it. Many places do not offer paid maternity leave so you have to bare in mind that unless you're working at a set yearly pay you're not going to make the same amount of money as a man who didn't take that time off. Obviously there are set yearly wages which are usually determined based upon a person's performance and what is available as their base pay for that position, but rarely is a man given a raise over a woman unless she does not do as well of a job.

Studies are being done all the time on everything. I could find a study that says that most religious people hate gay people. That is not true and I will not accept that. But guess what, I can also find a study that says that all third-wave feminists are lesbians who want to get rid of men. Also not true and unacceptable. The point here is that you'll find studies proving things one way or another. Of course you're only going to find the ones that you want to find, and those are usually the ones that you want to show to prove your point.

There's some truth to this.

However, this is a rabit hole. Follow the logic here to its conclusion and we're left with no evidence, well, anywhere, and then what? I'd rather people like @GABA actually offer something as opposed to people, myself included, just saying whatever we want to make our argument regardless of reality.

 

[GABA]

To put my own views on this. What do you define as the wage gap? Legally you are required to start at the same pay as a man in your position. You are also required to get raises based solely on your performance. Some may not get raises at the same time or for the same amount usually based upon a situation: possibly one of you was out more than the other. A good example that I like to point out in this discussion is that when it comes to the wage gap between two coworkers doing the same job is that women are more likely to take time off for maternity leave and for their children than men on average. Now I'm not saying that men don't take paternity leave or take time off for their kids, but it should be noted that men are rarely offered paternity leave and when it is available they rarely use it. Many places do not offer paid maternity leave so you have to bare in mind that unless you're working at a set yearly pay you're not going to make the same amount of money as a man who didn't take that time off. Obviously there are set yearly wages which are usually determined based upon a person's performance and what is available as their base pay for that position, but rarely is a man given a raise over a woman unless she does not do as well of a job.

Studies are being done all the time on everything. I could find a study that says that most religious people hate gay people. That is not true and I will not accept that. But guess what, I can also find a study that says that all third-wave feminists are lesbians who want to get rid of men. Also not true and unacceptable. The point here is that you'll find studies proving things one way or another. Of course you're only going to find the ones that you want to find, and those are usually the ones that you want to show to prove your point.

My point with the studies done is that there is still an issue, I mean even if we take in the factors of taking time off for leave or taking care of sick children, then there is still a gap in pay and its significant. I mean, though its not a big number 5% in salary difference is a big deal. However, in the studies I had linked deal with more than gender wage gap, but it also deals with the issue of sticky floors and glass cielings; which those talk about how in a male dominant field, women can be taken as more aggressive rather than a leader.

Side note, if we were offered paid maternity leave, I'm sure more men would stay home to help longer than a week. I know my brother and my bestie's husband didn't stay home for longer than a week because they didn't want to use their PTO up just in case they had to stay home and help with the baby if it got sick after their wives had to go back to work. They needed to keep the income flowing. I think its utterly ridiculous that families are not given paid leave to take care of their new family.

 

[Officiant]

My point with the studies done is that there is still an issue, I mean even if we take in the factors of taking time off for leave or taking care of sick children, then there is still a gap in pay and its significant. I mean, though its not a big number 5% in salary difference is a big deal. However, in the studies I had linked deal with more than gender wage gap, but it also deals with the issue of sticky floors and glass cielings; which those talk about how in a male dominant field, women can be taken as more aggressive rather than a leader.

Side note, if we were offered paid maternity leave, I'm sure more men would stay home to help longer than a week. I know my brother and my bestie's husband didn't stay home for longer than a week because they didn't want to use their PTO up just in case they had to stay home and help with the baby if it got sick after their wives had to go back to work. They needed to keep the income flowing. I think its utterly ridiculous that families are not given paid leave to take care of their new family.

Indeed, when California mandated it through payroll deductions men taking family leave increased by 400%. Also if Federally mandated, paid family leave would be one of the cheapest near-socialist things we could do at a "measly" $17 Billion though most of that money would come from payroll deductions rather than taxes.

 

[Sinbi]

Got back from work where the females were being paid in dollar bills with the corners ripped off. It got annoying when I could hear the wailing and shaking of fists, and cries of "PATRIARCHY!!!" halfway through the drive home.

Okay but for real, kudos to @GABA and @Noirceur .

Not gonna lie, I wasn't expecting anyone to actually bring up sources to their arguments. This is good. This is discussion. Learning is taking place. I like you guys. You're fun. Wrong, but fun.

http://sociology.about.com/od/Ask-a-Sociologist/fl/Yes-the-Gender-Pay-Gap-is-Real.htm
Sources a study that doesn't take into account the maternity leave situation mentioned earlier, and then goes on to say "the fact that a weekly earnings gap exists between men and women just out of college—7 percent— etc." without mentioning what degrees are most popular for men and women.
Then it goes on to try really hard to market a Gender Fairness Act that would be like adding: "Did you know you get a banana?" to an act that says, "Everyone gets a banana."
4/10.

http://www.aauw.org/research/the-simple-truth-about-the-gender-pay-gap/
Sources the same shit as above. They even copy-pasted the graphs in the study, it's great.
It doesn't add anything to what the above link did, other than highlighting the racial issues that I'm not educated on, so I won't actually go into that. Can't use the same logic we can with females/men because skin color doesn't affect anything other than how one perceive themselves and how others perceive them. Also, heat absorption I guess?

7/10 because it made me curious about racial gaps in pay and now I am looking into it.
http://www.ibtimes.com/gender-wage-...ens-earnings-growing-faster-womens-us-2149236
Holy shit they added a marinashutup video to this. That's.. kind of sad?
Not even gonna...

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/gender-wage-gap_n_3941180.html
It's the huffington post for chrissakes.

http://ec.europa.eu/justice/gender-equality/gender-pay-gap/index_en.html
"The page you requested doesn't exist."
Ahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahaha

0/10
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-35553573
Employers are being made to do this because a lot of people think the pay gap is real, and contrary to what some pessimist friends of mine believe, a lot of people wanting something tends to force that thing to happen. This isn't even a bad thing. Any law or regulation that forces corporations to reveal more information about how they operate is A-OK with me.
It then had a video about how the UK has been trying to find what doesn't exist for a long time.

5/10.
http://www.weforum.org/reports/global-gender-gap-report-2014
It says right on the tin that nobody can slay this dragon. "The Global Gender Gap Report 2014 quantifies the magnitude of gender-based disparities and tracks their progress over time. While no single measure can capture the complete situation, the Global Gender Gap Index presented in this Report seeks to measure one important aspect of gender equality: the relative gaps between women and men across four key areas: health, education, economy and politics."

But I gave it a read anyway. This was pretty good, actually, it provided a lot of information. Couple things, though: There's a video in it that has a couple things that don't sit right with me: "We're trying to determine whether women have the same rights and opportunities as men, regardless of whether they're in rich countries, or poor countries." Depends on the country, but in the vast majority of countries in the western world? Yes. Yes, they have the exact same rights. You cannot name a single right a man in the US or UK has that a woman does not. You can, however, name a few a woman does but a man does not.

Not the point though. This entire thing is predicated on the notion that women do not have the same rights as men, and that colors the entire thing, as you can see if you read into it.

5/10.

We could throw links at each other all day, but we're at the point where (as someone mentioned above) people are bringing up studies in progress, speculating, and offering guesswork. I do not believe the wage gap is real. I have not seen sufficient evidence as of yet to change that. Some of you do believe in it. You have seen evidence that you deem sufficient to support that (or, idk, someone told you and you never looked into it and assumed it was true.). We'll go in circles until one of us runs out of links and the other wins by pure, concentrated shitposting. And while that would be hilarious I think we can leave the topic be. Oh, and obligatory smug gif:

My point with the studies done is that there is still an issue, I mean even if we take in the factors of taking time off for leave or taking care of sick children, then there is still a gap in pay and its significant. I mean, though its not a big number 5% in salary difference is a big deal. However, in the studies I had linked deal with more than gender wage gap, but it also deals with the issue of sticky floors and glass cielings; which those talk about how in a male dominant field, women can be taken as more aggressive rather than a leader.

Side note, if we were offered paid maternity leave, I'm sure more men would stay home to help longer than a week. I know my brother and my bestie's husband didn't stay home for longer than a week because they didn't want to use their PTO up just in case they had to stay home and help with the baby if it got sick after their wives had to go back to work. They needed to keep the income flowing. I think its utterly ridiculous that families are not given paid leave to take care of their new family.

The fact that there are studies being done does not mean there is an issue. People have gone on wild goose chases for as long as you have existed (Remember? Genderless Squid Creature). Women being taken more aggressive rather than a leader has nothing to do with sexism, it's basic behavioral patterns. If a man is in nursing, a female dominated field, and he shows enormous amounts of compassion for the patients he is tending to, it might be taken as strange or even false because of the fact that the majority of the people there are females, and individuals who show that enormous passion are obviously on average going to be female because there are more of them there. Flip it with an advertising agency or whatever and it's a woman who take charge. It's fine. Working through that and doing a good job sets an example.

Totally agree with you on the paid leave subject.

 

[Nor'baal]

Last year, when I worked before my butler came in, cradled me in his arms and told me it would be alright I worked with two women.

One did not have A-Levels and got paid less than me.
One had a degree, and got paid more than me.

I was fine with this.
I would not be fine however, with getting paid more than a female colleague who worked the same hours, in the same job, with the same qualifications.

This is the wage gap:

Male Project Manager, 30, Degree Qualified: £25,000
Female Project Manager, 30, Degree Qualified: £23,000

That gap of £2,000 is the wage gap. I can assure you it is very real.

Disclaimer: Since @Livgardist retired, I no longer have a butler.

 

[Livgardist]

By 'butler' he means someone who breaks the legs on peasants for him. :cool:

 

[Pureblood-Sin]

By 'butler' he means someone who breaks the legs on peasants for him. :cool:

And I was that peasant. :D

 

[+SpaceJesus+]

Honestly though, what are you guys suggesting? If there is a wage gap, then yeah, I'd be against it from the start. But what are you guys suggesting is the cause of what you are describing? I wouldn't think that people are purposefully trying to limit what people are getting paid, especially considering how many employers are female. If it existed, then it would probably be a result of a loophole or economic policy that caused it. Showing what that cause is would make me a lot more open to acknowledging it.

My main concern is that I have yet to see enough evidence from either side to make a solid conclusion as to whether or not the gender pay gap is a legitimate and ever present issue. Please try to convince me of your side so I can make up my mind on this.

Also, another topic I thought I would bring up, just cause I want to see your guys opinion on it.

Should the Military Draft include women? There is some debate out there already about certain restrictions on what women can do in the military, mainly motivated by the idea that women, if they were captured, would experience much harsher torture and abuse than a man, especially against a group like ISIS that openly practices abuse against women. Some statistics that you guys have provided here kind of refute this thinking, but the question remains. If men and women are to be regarded as equal, should young women be required to join the military in a time of war just like young men?

 

[Nor'baal]

Should the Military Draft include women? There is some debate out there already about certain restrictions on what women can do in the military, mainly motivated by the idea that women, if they were captured, would experience much harsher torture and abuse than a man, especially against a group like ISIS that openly practices abuse against women. Some statistics that you guys have provided here kind of refute this thinking, but the question remains. If men and women are to be regarded as equal, should young women be required to join the military in a time of war just like young men?

Yes. Women in a time of war (at least in the UK) normally form the home-guard, or home-front, which is a vital part in any war.

 

[Marf]

snip

It's alright, dude. I fully appreciate how past experience can effect your view on the world and I understand how hard it can be to communicate your thoughts clearly when you're under pressure or emotional, trust me. I was angry, yeah, and I apologize if I came off too harsh. I hold you no ill-will and I'm very happy to see you've taken the time to think about what people have said and to make an attempt to expand your own view. Not too many people are willing to do that, so good on you.

For the record, I never usually debate because I don't handle confrontation well. I just lurk this board out of interest in the hopes of learning something new.

 

[Sinbi]

Should the Military Draft include women? There is some debate out there already about certain restrictions on what women can do in the military, mainly motivated by the idea that women, if they were captured, would experience much harsher torture and abuse than a man, especially against a group like ISIS that openly practices abuse against women. Some statistics that you guys have provided here kind of refute this thinking, but the question remains. If men and women are to be regarded as equal, should young women be required to join the military in a time of war just like young men?

That's a relatively simple one. In a perfect world, I would say "We shouldn't even have a draft" because forcing young men and women to fight in a war they might not even agree with is a bad thing, mmkay?

We don't live in one though. Yes. Yes they should be included in military drafts.

 

[Nor'baal]

It's alright, dude. I fully appreciate how past incidents can effect your view on the world and I understand how hard it can be to communicate your thoughts clearly when you're under pressure or emotional, trust me. I was angry, yeah, and I apologize if I came off too harsh. I hold you no ill-will and I'm very happy to see you've taken the time to think about what people have said and to make an attempt to expand your own view. Not too many people are willing to do that, so good on you.

Can I fight Andromeda now?

 

[Kiro]

Should the Military Draft include women?

The one year mandatory military service in Norway for every Citizen at the age of 18 already includes women, and is working excellently. Plenty of women serve in the Royal Norwegian Armed Forces, including combat roles. I don't see any logical reason why women should be excluded from military service in any way, shape, or form. As long as an individual, regardless of their internal plumbing, can perform to the standards set by the military, then it shouldn't matter whether your name is Jack or Jill or what kind of underwear you prefer to wear on leave.

 

[Diva]

@+SpaceJesus+
Start here and work your way outward. You are on the internet right now for petes sake, this is the last time I do your thinking for you.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...ng-you-need-to-know-about-the-gender-pay-gap/

 

[+SpaceJesus+]

@+SpaceJesus+
Start here and work your way outward. You are on the internet right now for petes sake, this is the last time I do your thinking for you.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...ng-you-need-to-know-about-the-gender-pay-gap/

Asking for people's opinions is not the same as asking for someone to think for you.

Also, yeah, I don't know why in America we don't put women in the draft. It just makes sense. I don't care who you are, in a war I want as many people on my side as possible. Anyone who thinks women would be a liability in a fight has obviously not spent much time around actual women. Imagine how much more poweful the military would be if you tapped into the other half of the population. Glad to see that other people are so ready to agree.

 

[GABA]

The fact that there are studies being done does not mean there is an issue. People have gone on wild goose chases for as long as you have existed (Remember? Genderless Squid Creature).

You have yet to bring evidence forward to explain how the wage gap is false.

Women being taken more aggressive rather than a leader has nothing to do with sexism, it's basic behavioral patterns. If a man is in nursing, a female dominated field, and he shows enormous amounts of compassion for the patients he is tending to, it might be taken as strange or even false because of the fact that the majority of the people there are females, and individuals who show that enormous passion are obviously on average going to be female because there are more of them there. Flip it with an advertising agency or whatever and it's a woman who take charge. It's fine. Working through that and doing a good job sets an example.

Women who are viewed as aggressive rather than assertive is going to be viewed as a negative trait, the sexism comes into play when individuals cannot distinguish between the two. Its not just a behavioral trait of the field. I would expect any nurse, male or female have compassion, and its not just in nursing, in any field dealing with human services, male-dominated, female-dominated, there would obviously need to be a level of empathy for clients and patients regardless of the caretaker's gender.

 

[Mr.BossMan]

Okay so after I spoke with my mother my opinion on feminism has changed.

Basically she made me open my eyes to the problems women face on a daily basis. Such as harassment by men and all that stuff. She told me what women went through way back in the day (60s, 70s, 80s) and how its changed for the better in some ways and in others it hasn't changed at all. Hearing some of the stories she told me about how men treated women made me want to punch something.

All in all I came back with a different point of view.

If a women is being harassed by a male, that's wrong.
If a women can't walk in the streets of New York City (or any city for that matter) without being cat called and hit on, we have a problem.

However I think I see this problem falling on the shoulders of men more so than women. As a man my task is simple, treat women right. And if all men can do that then I think we as a people would be that much closer to being equal. Which is fair.

Am I a feminist? I don't know, but I have learned there is a problem with how women are being treated. And I have realized that men create a large part of that problem and it rest on the individual mans shoulders to fix it.



BUT, I know some of you may hate me for it. But i still believe, and quite honestly will always believe, women should not be allowed combat roles in the military. Ya I said that, and yes I truly believe this, and yes I am right and if you fight me on this you are wrong. Also NO women should not be forced to be in the draft, that idea is ridiculous.

Women I love you. I love you so much I am willing to enlist in the United States Marine Corps and fight for you. So let me and my brothers fight the good fight and you stay in the homeland, safe. I don't think a warzone is a place for anyone, and a lady even less.

 

[Outlander]

So, because of how much you love women, your deny them a job they may want and choose to do? I'm glad your opinions have changed, but that still bothers me somewhat. Its like this archaic sense of chivalry, which is frankly bullshit when it means women are treated more as prizes to protect and cherish rather than as equals. What you're saying may not, and probably isnt, coming from that place. However, that's the kind of mentality I associate it with.

Okay so after I spoke with my mother my opinion on feminism has changed.

Basically she made me open my eyes to the problems women face on a daily basis. Such as harassment by men and all that stuff. She told me what women went through way back in the day (60s, 70s, 80s) and how its changed for the better in some ways and in others it hasn't changed at all. Hearing some of the stories she told me about how men treated women made me want to punch something.

All in all I came back with a different point of view.

If a women is being harassed by a male, that's wrong.
If a women can't walk in the streets of New York City (or any city for that matter) without being cat called and hit on, we have a problem.

However I think I see this problem falling on the shoulders of men more so than women. As a man my task is simple, treat women right. And if all men can do that then I think we as a people would be that much closer to being equal. Which is fair.

Am I a feminist? I don't know, but I have learned there is a problem with how women are being treated. And I have realized that men create a large part of that problem and it rest on the individual mans shoulders to fix it.



BUT, I know some of you may hate me for it. But i still believe, and quite honestly will always believe, women should not be allowed combat roles in the military. Ya I said that, and yes I truly believe this, and yes I am right and if you fight me on this you are wrong. Also NO women should not be forced to be in the draft, that idea is ridiculous.

Women I love you. I love you so much I am willing to enlist in the United States Marine Corps and fight for you. So let me and my brothers fight the good fight and you stay in the homeland, safe. I don't think a warzone is a place for anyone, and a lady even less.