PvP Reach Heaven Through Violence (Open Challenge)

Jake

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Just posting this as an OOC/potential interest check and discussion point for the thread I posted as an open challenge to any Sith, Reach Heaven Through Violence.

The thread is also welcome to eventual spectating Sith that might enjoy the spectacle.
 

Die Shize

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I posted in the IC. Hope I did it right but let me know! Also I think in your IC thread your link links back to the IC instead of OOC thread lol
 

Jake

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Haha you absolutely did and you were absolutely right, I fixed that now before I replied to you.
 

Jake

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Fight Bullet Points

This is my attempt to simplify what has happened in the fight. Ideally we should more or less agree on the following section, but I obviously don't want to speak for Darasuum so I will offer a little more clarification on my posts.

Darasuum- Serene enters the fight, introduces herself, and casts a spell with a handsign to overload Qû's weapon, then throws a telekinetic wave with the Force with her other hand at a 45 degree angle (diagonally). Darasuum mentions that as a side effect this would also kick up sand and blind Qû.

Jake - Qû enhances her senses and reflexes with the Force as Serene gets in the ring. Qû sees the handsign and senses something happening with her weapon so she throws it at Serene with Force-enhanced strength and starts moving towards Serene with Force Speed. I mention how Qû deals with the telekinesis and that she lifts her left hand to throw some sand in Serene's face.

I fail to acknowledge the sand from Darasuum's previous attack.

Darasuum - Serene is able to react fast enough to sidestep Qû's electroblade because of how her telekinesis slows it down. As the projectile passes her, she also lightning bends her spell back off it, further empowering the attack. Darasuum acknowledges the sand autohits my character and blinds her, and after sidestepping Serene lunges counterclockwise into a new position to dodge Qû's telekinesis. She then redirects the spell back at Qû.

Jake - I acknowledge the sand and offer a justification for how Qû reacts centered on her Force-heightened senses and reflexes. Qû extends her movement, stopping a few meters farther than she would have otherwise, moving fast enough to narrowly avoid Serene's lightning pulse by exploiting ambiguity in how it was aimed.

As she turns around, she moves her hand to start to clear her vision, then lashes out wildly in the Force to try to sweep Serene's feet from behind telekinetically. I acknowledge this wouldn't do much or any damage as Qû sacrifices power to compensate for the imprecision of using all her other senses, and is trying to disrupt Serene's positioning so we can reset.

Darasuum - Serene is not surprised that her previous attack was avoided and immediately compensates by correcting her Force Lightning into Force Storm, weakening the effect but extending its area. Simultaneously, she predicts that a counter could be coming and frog hops to her left, pushing off with the Force to enhance her lunge and thus avoiding Qû's telekinesis. Darasuum clarifies the precise distance between our characters, which I started to do but it is more concrete here.

Points of contention as I understand them, my perspective and what I would like to see happen personally

Darasuum mentioned Qû should be blinded for the rest of the fight. To me it was a secondary effect, like sand being kicked up on a windy beach, so I feel it's more reasonable as something I need to deal with for a round or two, not the entire spar. I actually thought with her actions Qû would have just blown through the sand, but I failed to write a line about it and acknowledge the autohit needed to go through.

Darasuum has stated it would be reasonable to alter the last post with Serene being hit by telekinesis if Qû passes out next round. I don't think this is reasonable: I've been acknowledging her fatigue and even stated last post that she knows she needs to wrap it up. A boxer passes out after going the distance and a marathon runner after finishing the race, etc.

When I was asked OOCly how tired my character was before Serene entered, I didn't realize I would be pressed to make Qû pass out 3 rounds later, nor did my answer lend itself to this interpretation. Additionally, this would be the 7th or 8th round for Qû strictly by post count, but as a result of the nested loop of interrupts Serene got into the ring seconds ago in actual IC time, which to me further weakens this argument.

Both of us feel that this rule applies to the other. I can accept that, but Darasuum's posts have been a little longer and contain just as many actions as mine, so I contend both of us are at fault and we should simplify going forward.

Furthermore, Darasuum expressed a preference for this more technical style of PVP rather than something casual with leeway to take hits in a back and forth, but has also been trying to deal critical damage since Serene's intro. I would prefer if we both felt wiggle room to acknowledge connections but also fight back, especially in a social spar.

Darasuum would like my character to pass out from exhaustion. I feel her powers are being ignored but she is expected to faint from using them. My interpretation of the guidelines is that a Level 1 physical specialist is not superhuman but around "peak human athlete" when using the Force. Suffice to say, all of this would be happening pretty quickly. Qû's dodge is acknowledged, but Serene instantly course corrects into Force Storm. She retroactively anticipates a counter before Qû dodges, or in the time it takes Qû to turn around and lash out wildly.

Her powers are not being acknowledged: Qû shouldn't be overwhelmingly faster, but she should have an edge by physically enhancing herself with the Force. It isn't logical to me that she is retroactively sequence broken in a movement that takes a few seconds to execute. Serene should also have to process for a moment and not react robotically without hesitation.

We agree to simplify our actions and try to be more sequential, because we've both abused interrupts. Nitpicking split second reactions is boring to read, write, and against the spirit of PVP. Serene's actions go through, but so do Qû's, doing no damage but throwing Serene forward and cutting off the Force Storm, which connects with Qû but doesn't do critical damage because she's only exposed very briefly. She uses her raised arm to bear the brunt of it and it isn't useless but she couldn't make a fist with it so to speak.

Qû finishes clearing her vision and we continue fighting instead of further subdividing the same 10 seconds of time in round 4. I acknowledge Qû's performance going down, but I don't think it should drop off a cliff yet. I am also open to the fight ending in a draw.

If I need an extension while we resolve this, I would like to request one, but afterwards I should be able to post promptly.
 
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Darasuum

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There is a lot to cover here since this should have been brought to the OOC thread awhile ago instead of being done through DMs.

Exhaustion actively effects people in the moment. Just as the sand will distract and make it difficult for force powers to be precise especially for a level 1 regardless of their specialty. I would have Serene experience the same if she continues to use taxing powers or have a second duel of her own after this one. A wide range TK blast would be even more taxing for Qu'jara to do out of desperation or be less effective than what is intended.

I feel that maybe your are coloring things in a bit of a biased light with terms like "abusing interrupts" and trying to force a "reset" of actions OOC which is not how PvP works, at least not here. My posts may be long and descriptive but they do not have as many actions as yours' in the latest round of posts which is why they have been exploited. I will have my future posts be shorter so there is less fluff and not be confused with being too many actions.
  • Qu'jara dodges the lightning blast and begins to wipe away the sand from her eyes.
  • Serene switches to Force Storm and enhanced lunges to the left while Qu'jara is wiping sand from her eyes.
  • Qu'jara then sends out a telekinetic blast while she is blinded and not using a hand to finesse the telekinesis while also continuing to try to move towards Serene with uncertain footing.
These details coupled with the fatigue Qu'jara should be experiencing would affect the success of her attack. Say nothing of the interrupting effects of the Force Storm that would prevent Qu'Jara from even letting off this attack and stopping her in her tracks.

I am hesitant to allow for an unlikely attack because so far on multiple occasions you have said that you are not having fun with this PvP. I don't think you will change your attitude and won't begin to take more appropriate damage as this spar continues. If anything it will probably get worse. You mentioned IRL events that are distracting or affecting your judgement and attitude when it comes to this duel. For that reason I have suggested multiple times that you have Qu'jara take an L so this thread can end and a CPvP thread can be started that fits more with what you want to write.

Before I accept the TK blast from landing I would like to know exactly how much damage you intend for Qu'jara to take. Just her hand is not enough. It would roll through her whole body, be painful, distracting and damaging. This will help give me have some piece of mind and prevent you from continuing to ignore what I feel is an appropriate level of damage and fatigue. However, I feel like Qu'jara should be borderline incapacitated both from fatigue and the Force Storm.

Alternatively you can accept that Qu'jara's TK blast doesn't happen at all and she instead gets electrocuted and choose a new line of actions. This will also logically interrupt her attempt to clear her vision and remain blinded until she can give sufficient time and effort to clear her eyes. So far you have written Qu'jara as being able to "see" using Force Sense on top of using Force Speed, Force Enhance and various telekinetic attacks in this second fight.

The exact circumstances of how the fight ends doesn't matter to me. Having Qu'jara be exhausted is just one of the ways I offered a compromise seeing as she has used force speed almost continually with two fights back to back on top of numerous other techniques. If she takes lightning damage that will further put her at a disadvantage but I feel like you won't let that stop you from continuing to do too much in your posts or ignore the appropriate level of damage. There's nothing that I've seen or read that speaks to the contrary so far.

OOC I'm fine with this becoming a draw so this can end. I would prefer that Qu'jara come up with a way to try and make this a draw IC rather than just having the thread end abruptly and leaving the actual events ambiguous. Right now I feel like Serene has the upper hand IC and would not seek to end it on equal terms unless given a good reason. However if we can't come to an agreement we can also just end the thread in a very anti-climactic way.

I'm fine with a 24 hour extension if you feel you need it.
 

Jake

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I have extensively acknowledged fatigue even though Qû is an athletic warrior archetype and had a moment to catch her breath between bouts. ICly, seconds have passed since we started. I'm also using standard applications of basic Force powers less complex than Force Lightning or Force Storm, although obviously Serene would be way less fatigued in comparison.

I have also acknowledged the lack of precision in my post, stating that her attack wouldn't do damage to compensate for existing at all. You continue to insist on my character's exhaustion but don't respond to my point that if Qû is expending so much energy that the few seconds that have elapsed since Serene entered the ring should have her on the verge of collapse, her powers need to be acknowledged. Thus it doesn't make sense that you're sequence breaking me this round.

There is not a significant difference in the number of actions taken or the length of our posts. Most of my OOC bullet points are addressing details from your post or concise justifications of actions as opposed to actions themselves. "How things work here" also make it clear that what is happening in this fight from both of us might not quite be the goal of PVP on SWRP, in my opinion.

Furthermore, the simultaneous actions in your post are attacks and dodges. The simultaneous actions in my post are small body movements: my dodges/attacks are sequential and not in parallel, which is a relevant detail.

We both seem to feel the other is powergaming. I mentioned RL stuff that will prevent me from posting, but it ended up not happening yet so I decided to see the spar through one way or another (at least until it does. I don't think I'll be able to post through the weekend). I don't think I need to take an L because I don't feel I've lost, and taking a hit =/= losing.

I also do not really understand what your OOC purpose was in having Serene enter this fight. You asked me how tired my character was before you posted an intro going for critical damage and 3 posts later you're trying to have Qû pass out from exhaustion, while leaving me no wiggle room to avoid a KO from the same attack you've been trying to go for since your first post. Regardless of the IC disposition of your character, this doesn't seem like a desire to actually spar to me.

If neither of us are enjoying this, I don't mind if it ends anticlimactically. This isn't a mission thread or actually competitive PVP that will have a consequence on the site. As far as a reason, your character stepped into the ring and immediately used lethal force in a training duel/showmatch. While suitably Sith-like, duels to the death (regardless that OOCly the thread isn't death-enabled) have a traditional place in Sith society as the Arauk'kesh, which this duel explicitly is not.

Normally I don't think it would be a great excuse, but if we're not having fun, I think it works as sufficient justification: I agree Serene can have the upperhand IC and I'll take some damage from Force Storm and we can just continue in the interest of ending this, but she also abused the limits of the situation, so the fight ends in a draw. OOCly I don't think I've lost, ICly if Serene wants to call that a win, then that's fine. I am totally open to other ideas though.
 
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Darasuum

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Even with the electroblade overcharged it would not have been lethal. It’s also a death disabled thread so your character would only die if you wanted it that way. Force lightning from a level 1 can kill but only after an extended period of time. This is even the case for higher levels. It was never my intention or Serene’s to kill Qu’jara.

I have my difference of opinion on the other points but I think it’s best to not go back and forth.

A draw seems sensible at this point. Should I expect a post from you or do you want to leave it as is? I may post again with a time jump to keep responding with people in the crowd and hand wave the outcome if you would prefer that.
 

Jake

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I know it wouldn't have been lethal OOCly, it just seemed like an easy reason for the draw.

To give this thread closure: we decided to go that way. Sreeya is going to jump in with Azar and stop the fight so we can brush over the disagreement and keep it rolling while saving face for both characters.

No harm, no foul! PVP be like that sometimes. After Sreeya I'll see if I have Qû stick around or go chill in a pool and exit the thread.
 
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