Secret Society of Jedi Separatists

[Fang.]

well, I was involved heavily as well behind the scenes, as Lutomi bounced several ideas off me and asked me to join early on.

However, I do not like this statement that creators are "hiding behind arguments" like "admins asked me to post this" every one of the creators, and im fairly sure all those who have an interest in this faction, do so because their character would join the ICly and has justification. For me its that my character no longer has much faith in the council or the order as a whole, namely, most of the other masters due to the fact that they voted Von and Hal onto the council, while he had to undergo a trial for a mistake he had made well over a year before.

Thus far, all attempts at a vote of no confidence in Von have been met with "we are dealing with it" and "she'll serve as an example that people can be redeemed".

while other characters have been critisized and punished, she was elevated to a council member.


There is an IC reason for everything about this faction. Even if this doesnt get approved, im pretty sure everything this was posted for will continue to move forward, it just wont have a faction page.

 

[TheSilentWind]

I think we have all voiced our concerns and we have debated over this multiple times. For now, I suggest that we just wait for Lucid to post here since he is the Faction Admin.

 

[TAC]

Lucid is going to post soon with a decision, but before he does, I want people to be extremely clear where I stand.

This idea began as a couple of Jedi, kept within the faction, who had a distrust of the Jedi and wanted to keep an eye on them. What it appears to have evolved into, which is why Lucid had Lutomi post an indie faction, is something much larger - a much more open opposition to the Council and their leadership, complete with a base of operations, many Jedi, and a small armada.

Lutomi and I discussed the situation with Lucid and we explained the original intent, and I agreed to bring it back under the umbrella over the Jedi if it was going to be as small-scale/back-room as was originally pitched to me. I think there needs to be some discussion among those interested about the Do's and Don'ts of this particular splinter group, because I am hearing two different stories about why people are joining and what level of opposition it is presenting.

For the matter of a vote of no confidence, Fang, you're simply wrong. I have done what must be more than half dozen threads with Jedi since Larik has become GM, all with different feelings and wants for the Jedi Order. IC Larik has again and again said it has been dealt with, because Master Raythe has taken actions to address the situation and what she did. Larik stood before the Council and reprimanded Von, one of his closest friends, because he knows what she did was wrong. But no formal action has been called for by any of the Masters, just some grumblings of "I don't really like this" in isolated encounters with Larik.

From an IC perspective, Padawans and Knights would not select a Council. Masters have the requisite knowledge of the Order, candidates, and our direction to be able to make that decision. That is why they are Masters. From an OOC standpoint, we only did so because the Council didn't feel comfortable naming a GM without some greater conversation. There was no necessity to open it up to others, that's now how main factions are organized on the website, and we did take what folks thoughts into account. Regardless, you're making arguments from an IC perspective alone, so your Padawans/Knights don't have much ground to stand on.

I don't have a problem with cool stories and people writing the stories they want, which was why I approved Lutomi's idea in-house. It has become something else that I do not feel comfortable having under the umbrella of the Jedi, because of the open opposition to the Council and the discussion of the ability to fight the Jedi. If folks wish to keep this small and focused on the story of not fully trusting the Council but still being a contributing part of our faction and the Order, great, let me know and we can do that. If folks are moving it away from that intent into an indie faction that threatens the sanctity of the Order and our fight against the Sith, understand that the Grand Master will have the authority and more than enough reason to walk into your base with his lightsaber drawn and demand your surrender.

I love fun stories and diverse roleplaying experiences, but you have to be able to deal with the IC ramifications.

 

[StandbyRanger]

So, after seeing what has become of this thread and seeing the big mess it has become, I'd like to voice my opinion on the matter.

This "faction" was originally conceived as a secret society for a very small group of Jedi. The main goal, as I understand it, was to allow these Jedi, who have had connections to certain members on the council as well as the Jedi as a whole, to protect them and see that no harm would be brought to them. This idea of protection was brought on by what has happened at Endor, and seeing as how it nearly ended in Jedi killing Jedi (padawans included) it's justified.

This group was NOT formed to directly oppose the council and instigate open war. It sucks seeing that the idea Lutomi originally came up with was almost wrenched from her hands and turned into something she was very adamantly opposed to happening.

While I cannot speak for everyone who originally came up with the idea, I can speak for myself and say that so long as the Separatists are kept a very small group as originally intended, and the goals and aspirations of this group are kept to preserving the Jedi Order as a whole with protection for those who need it, this group can provide wonderful story opportunities for all. The Separatist idea is not a militarized one, but one with preservation in mind.

 

[Mistress]

Please be realistic an honest TAC. Lucid offered the armada in our skype chat with full backing to play into "Seamus has something to laugh at later." :) I turned it down because warring against the Jedi is against everything we are IC. Y'all didn't read this for 4 weeks. And y'all assumed this is a full temple we built ourselves from Jedi paid supplies. I even gave links to my past rps which clearly showed we discovered it. I wrote "temple remnant" for a reason and all those other specifics. But please don't mislead everyone into thinking this was meant to be bigger than it is. It may very well evolve into being bigger than it is, because being jumped on all night, I kinda started to wonder "how can we go on fairly this way?" It was three people who had a misunderstanding. I don't understand how this still isn't clear.

 

[Wit]

due to the fact that they voted Von and Hal onto the council

I'm taking a back seat with discussions related to this group as I don't seem to be making any headway, but one last thing I would like to ask you before I bow out. And this is purely on a personal level as a writer.

What exactly about Hal makes you so disapprove of him being on the Council? Part of why I write here is to improve as a writer and that means accepting criticism, which I'm always open to. So if there's anything in the portrayal of the character you feel isn't really up to mark for a Jedi then I would very much like to look into that, because I have tried to write him as a pretty decent Jedi at most, if not all, instances.

 

[Cross]

warring against the Jedi is against everything we are IC

Thats not entirely true, I told Lutomi earlier that I didn't personally like calling ourselves Separatists because we aren't actually looking to separate from the Order, I personally prefer the term loyalists, loyal to the Order but weary of the Council, but not actually against you guys either. Every Jedi that joins does so for different reasons, Jade feels that the Order is in some sort of danger and that Endor was just the beginning. The Grandmaster leaving the Order, Von and Seamus attacking members of the Order, and Jade nearly being killed all make her feel that the Order is being threatened from within. This all leads to Jade wanting to confide in those she trusts most and work together to keep the Order safe as per her own perspective. This would naturally exclude the Council.

That's a paradox. You've written that you're loyal to the ideals you think the Order should embody, which differ from those running it, and that therefore you are not loyal to these people. Now, you're creating an organisation whose sole purpose is to rally people, with military power, from the very faction you disagree with. And yet, you're somehow claiming that you're not wanting to stage a coup? Which character would ever believe that?

Things must be considered from a strictly IC standpoint, because this is an IC organisation. One that revolves around a little something called Treason. This is, of course, absolutely fine, but you cannot have it both ways. From the moment you want to rally armed forces, you're choosing a side. Neutrality is no longer an option. And, by the looks of it, you're clearly not with this Order. So that leaves you being against it.

Now, and this really is just the new guy's 2 cents, but in my book, as permissive as the Jedi Council might be, they'd have to be borderline suicidal to even consider accepting this organisation simply because they're saying "Although we're getting an army, we promise we won't be going to war". So, I'd suggest you not being found, because the way I see it, the moment this organisation stops being a secret (how much of a secret it is should be left to the capable people charged with approving it), you'll realise you'll have caused the very war you claim you want no part of.

 

[Mistress]

What armed forces?! we rp two ships on lamaredd and not even a squadron of fighters. Reland had those in the exile squadron. Should we hitch hike across the galaxy or maybe bring the two ships we rped with for the past year? This was blown out of our portion. If nobody will accept that then so be it. But stop blaming us, it's your lack of willingness to understand

 

[StandbyRanger]

War, Jedi, paradoxes...

I'm just going to go ahead and direct you to the post I made earlier this morning and say that in no way is the idea of the Separatists about going to war with the Order. Things began to get muddled as more and more people showed interest in joining. A Jedi Civil War is the last thing the Separatists would ever want to happen. It is not treason. It is not an army.

 

[Oncaro]

Guys. Guys. Guys.

 

[Cross]

Ranger, this:

This group was NOT formed to directly oppose the council and instigate open war.

Is OOC information. For what it's worth, I believe you. But it is also my honest belief that you cannot expect characters to, nor can you expect OOC discussion to influence the standing of an IC organisation. Because that is meta-game. I have attempted it in the past, and certainly understand why you'd want it, but the fact is that the line needs to be drawn somewhere. That was the sole reason I wrote what I wrote.

What armed forces?! we rp two ships on lamaredd and not even a squadron of fighters. Reland had those in the exile squadron. Should we hitch hike across the galaxy or maybe bring the two ships we rped with for the past year?

You're accepting applications from Jedi. Jedi are soldiers. Therefore, you want to rally armed forces. That's only logical. Whether you get them or not isn't relevant.

But stop blaming us, it's your lack of willingness to understand

You might want to calm down a little. I've done nothing other than express my opinion on an organisation, and I resent the fact that you've moved to call me short-sighted or claimed that I'm somehow blaming you for something, whatever that may be. This is about what we wrote, not who we are, and I'd prefer it if we kept it that way. Jeez.

Clearly, this is somehow stepping on toes, therefore I will now retire from the conversation, lest it escalate.
As a last piece of advice, I would like to reiterate my personal belief that you should not care as much about your ideas, because taking a disagreement as an affront to your person will cause you to burn out. I've seen it happen a few times, and it's never pretty.

If you agree with anything I wrote, great. If not, then fine by me. But I have been respectful to your opinions, and would very much appreciate it if you'd extend me that very courtesy.

 

[Ral]

You're accepting applications from Jedi. Jedi are soldiers. Therefore, you want to rally armed forces. That's only logical. Whether you get them or not isn't relevant.

What? No. I'm sorry, but no. This is just not true. Jedi are supposed to be guardians of peace and justice not soldiers. Sound familiar? Maybe because a certain Jedi said it before. Saying they're soldiers is fundamentally wrong. Can they be soldiers? If necessary, just like how cops can be soldiers, but they are not be default soldiers. Just like how Buddhist monks could be soldiers (I'm talking about Japanese Warrior Monks specifically), but saying a Monk is a soldier as a broad generalization is wrong and misses the point of the Jedi. They have been soldiers in the past, but even then it wasn't their original purpose, and one shouldn't make a sweeping and broad characterization of them like that. I don't play Kai as a soldier, if you want to see a soldier look at Ral, they are to completely different characters.

 

[Mistress]

I apologize. There is a good deal of misunderstanding and a lot of repeating myself since the evening prior. Not all of the lash back has been public. I never intended to upset someone specific as much as I have. But now it is what it is. I hope we all can make the best of it and have fun telling an epic tale.

 

[Oncaro]

What? No. I'm sorry, but no. This is just not true. Jedi are supposed to be guardians of peace and justice not soldiers. Sound familiar? Maybe because a certain Jedi said it before. Saying they're soldiers is fundamentally wrong. Can they be soldiers? If necessary, just like how cops can be soldiers, but they are not be default soldiers. Just like how Buddhist monks could be soldiers (I'm talking about Japanese Warrior Monks specifically), but saying a Monk is a soldier as a broad generalization is wrong and misses the point of the Jedi. They have been soldiers in the past, but even then it wasn't their original purpose, and one shouldn't make a sweeping and broad characterization of them like that. I don't play Kai as a soldier, if you want to see a soldier look at Ral, they are to completely different characters.

Really the closest person to what he's talking about is... Well, Alanna, who as I'm sure everyone knows OOC actually did fight in the Clone Wars. The recent fight on Naboo has caused that "soldier" mentality to resurface for her, and if anyone might call for militarization of the Jedi it would be her-- but she knows what happened to the Jedi the last time that really happened, as she lived through it, so she'd actually try to go full circle and stay as the peacekeeper.

It's an odd dichotomy in her personality... One I really need to get into her profile one of these days as it needs to be updated badly. Bleh.

 

[Lucid]

I spoke at length last night with both Lutomi and TAC via skype about the intent behind this group. The requirement I made for Lutomi to post this as an independent faction was based largely on a misunderstanding of intent. As many have said, this group was originally intended to be a device to facilitate unique role-play centering around certain character stories. It was my misjudgment of the intent because how certain things were presented in the write up that this was going to be used in character.

In light of the points brought to light during my conversation with the group creator and the Jedi faction leader the current iteration of this group is ruled thus:

The Secret Society of Jedi Separatists will stand in character not as a faction but as a loose group of like-minded Jedi within the current faction. Any current member of the Jedi Order is free to associate however they please with this organization. They should not be regarded, treated or otherwise referred to as an Independent Faction. They are simply a group of like-minded Jedi who have issues with the current leadership. How they chose to voice those concerns is beyond the scope of this ruling and in the hands of the characters and writers who chose to write association. To make sure that the group does not exceed boundaries and risk overstepping its position, some necessary clarification must be added to the write up of possessions. The "Temple" as Lutomi described to me, must remain simply a personal haven. Development of the location into a base of operations beyond a location for personal retreat or small gatherings is not approved. In character resources dedicated to the location must come from the personal assets of members who wish to use it. Food, water, small generators, etc. are the scope of what will be allowed if this is to be considered an outpost or safe-house. Fleet assets associated with this group are a grey area that I will try to define. As Jedi, every member of the current New Jedi Order has access to whatever materiel the New Jedi Order possesses. Use and requisition of those assets are subject to the Factions guidelines. How assets requisitioned from the Jedi Order are used is up to those who requested their use and are subject to the limitations set in place by the Jedi Order staff. The Secret Society of Jedi Separatists as a group cannot possess fleet assets greater than what Characters who associate with the group personally own. In summary, the group as it stands with this ruling is simply an association, something to provide character story and plot and is not something that is as currently written or intended a group looking to openly oppose and separate from the Jedi Order as was explained to me.

THAT SAID​

This faction has caused a lot of stir out of character. There are clearly a number of people who think that open opposition has its merits. Since open opposition within the Jedi Order has tons of potential for engaging story I want to remind people that if anyone wishes to submit a faction that is a true separatist movement is welcomed and encouraged to do so, should they feel that it adds creativity and story momentum to player characters and the role-plays they take part in.

To that end, there has been some discussion of official retaliation from the Jedi Council should a group decide to truly separate and I want to speak to that. The Jedi Order is a voluntary and democratic service. They are not a military. Members of the Jedi Order have always welcome to leave the Order should they feel that that is the best course for them. Members of the Jedi Order have always been encouraged to speak up and make their thoughts heard if they have issue with anything that the Order as a whole is doing.

A group of Jedi leaving the Order cannot be seen as mutiny, unless their form of opposition is harmful to the Order they left. It does not seem that any group leaving would actively work against the New Jedi Order, but rather, work towards the same end from a different direction. I would like to remind the New Jedi Order leadership that unless they have justifiable proof of hostile and damaging action from a group that separates in character, they cannot take action against them.

For the New Jedi Order to answer a group of dissatisfied individuals deciding that is better for them, as characters who identify with the Jedi Code and in turn identify as being Jedi in service to the galaxy, would make the New Jedi Order less than Jedi and only serve to fracture their already tenuous existence further. That is something that everyone must keep in mind.

I will not stand for creative action to be halted before they can get off the ground by threats of force from larger parties who take offence. Unless there is actual hostile action taken, there is no justifiable grounds for persecution. If characters wish to separate peacefully from the Jedi Order and form their own entity to peruse the Jedi ideal as they see it, they have always been welcome and free to do so.

 

[Mistress]

Amen to that then..

 

[Fang.]

that said​

this faction has caused a lot of stir out of character. There are clearly a number of people who think that open opposition has its merits. Since open opposition within the jedi order has tons of potential for engaging story i want to remind people that if anyone wishes to submit a faction that is a true separatist movement is welcomed and encouraged to do so, should they feel that it adds creativity and story momentum to player characters and the role-plays they take part in.

To that end, there has been some discussion of official retaliation from the jedi council should a group decide to truly separate and i want to speak to that. The jedi order is a voluntary and democratic service. They are not a military. Members of the jedi order have always welcome to leave the order should they feel that that is the best course for them. Members of the jedi order have always been encouraged to speak up and make their thoughts heard if they have issue with anything that the order as a whole is doing.

a group of jedi leaving the order cannot be seen as mutiny, unless their form of opposition is harmful to the order they left. It does not seem that any group leaving would actively work against the new jedi order, but rather, work towards the same end from a different direction. I would like to remind the new jedi order leadership that unless they have justifiable proof of hostile and damaging action from a group that separates in character, they cannot take action against them.

For the new jedi order to answer a group of dissatisfied individuals deciding that is better for them, as characters who identify with the jedi code and in turn identify as being jedi in service to the galaxy, would make the new jedi order less than jedi and only serve to fracture their already tenuous existence further. That is something that everyone must keep in mind.

I will not stand for creative action to be halted before they can get off the ground by threats of force from larger parties who take offence. Unless there is actual hostile action taken, there is no justifiable grounds for persecution. If characters wish to separate peacefully from the jedi order and form their own entity to peruse the jedi ideal as they see it, they have always been welcome and free to do so.

this. Everyone. Read. This.

 

[The Kyzer]

I will not stand for creative action to be halted before they can get off the ground by threats of force from larger parties who take offence. Unless there is actual hostile action taken, there is no justifiable grounds for persecution. If characters wish to separate peacefully from the Jedi Order and form their own entity to peruse the Jedi ideal as they see it, they have always been welcome and free to do so.

Plot Armor for everyone.

The New Jedi Order wouldn't attack these guys for separating. To think that is just silly.

Would other groups for other reasons? Sure. Why not? Jedi are Jedi. Jedi rebels are just as valid if not more so as they'd be seen as breakaway radicals without the Jedi Council to control them.

 

[Wit]

this. Everyone. Read. This.

No. I. Won't. Thanks.

 

[Lucid]

Plot Armor for everyone.

The New Jedi Order wouldn't attack these guys for separating. To think that is just silly.

Would other groups for other reasons? Sure. Why not? Jedi are Jedi. Jedi rebels are just as valid if not more so as they'd be seen as breakaway radicals without the Jedi Council to control them.

Certainly, if the separation was done poorly. Depending on the execution it could go either way.

Also what I posted is a far cry from plot armor.