The First Sith: Experience Points and Character Levels

[Vosrik]

As someone who was really looking forward to playing a Padawan next TL I gotta say this is kinda a deal breaker for me :/...

I should preface this with this is my opinion, but hopefully you guys will still hear me out. This is pretty dear to my heart, so I guess I still want to try and make an argument for Padawans next TL.

So, here it goes.

Though I understand where you guys are coming from with the levels system, I don’t quite understand the lore rational or even why it is a problem logistically in the first place.

Let's start with the lore. If the Jedi have been decimated by a chaotic line of successions from their ranks, why in the world would they ever decide to just make everyone a knight? That seems like the single stupidest thing they could have ever done. The whole danger of the sith/exiles (I understand there is a difference but for the purposes of this post I am going to use the terms interchangeably) is that they can corrupt from within, turning entire segments of the Jedi order to their side with only words/temptation. Surely the best way to combat this is to A. put more oversight upon members of the order who are not trusted (e.g padawans, younglings, and even some knights) and B. not give those untrusted individuals any power that they could use when/if they turned to the dark side (Such as making them full blown Jedi knights with all the privilege and access to battle plans, troop movements, and restricted archives that entails). In legends the Jedi understood this, even at their lowest the Jedi never abolished the rank of padawan/apprentice/disciple; indeed when the threat of the Sith grew stronger they gave padawans MORE oversight not less. Take the early old republic, before the rise of the exiles and sith. In that time period many masters would train entire groups of Padawans/disciples far away from the centralized Jedi temples (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jedi_training/Legends), but as the Sith rose in prominance this practice decreased and was eventually abolished, essentially ending by the time of the rise of the first galactic empire and the time period of the SWTOR game. This is because the Jedi were quick to realise that not only could these masters often not properly judge if their students were ready for the rank of Jedi Knight and all the responsibilities it held, but also because such lack of oversight fostered corruption and paved the path to the darkside (notice the reference to corruption/savagery in some of these lone master’s trials on the wookieepedia article). The rank of Padawan is critical to feeling out who is and who isn’t ready/prepared to be a true Jedi, it is to find any lingering seeds of darkness and (all things being perfect) stamp them out. By the time a Padawan has become a knight they should be loyal to the Jedi order and be able to resist the temptations of the darkside.
But that isn’t even the most fundamental problem with taking away the rank of Padawan, the most fundamental problem is that it isn’t who the Jedi are. The entire point of the Jedi is that when threatened they don’t lash out, but instead consolidate. With the near total decimation of their order at the Seventh Battle of Ruusan they didn’t decide to open up the Jedi order to more students/promote unworthy students to ranks they hadn’t achieved, they passed the Ruusan Reformation, cracking down on their training programs and reinforced stringent oversight on members not trusted completely. And the Ruusan Reformation is the perfect analogy to how the Jedi react in strife, sure there will always be a few who branch out (e.g Revan or Jedi Lord Hoth), but on the whole the Jedi are a conservative faction, they will always favor control over power. Padawans are the perfect embodiment of that control and it is not one I can see the Jedi ever discarding.

Now let's talk about the logistical problems with having Padawans in the game. Frankly, I don’t think their are any, as long as it is made clear what playing a Padawan entails. If you are willing to play a Padawan you have to understand your limitations. No, you are not going to defeat a Sith lord (/Exile lord) in one on one combat (assuming no trickery is involved of course). No, you are not going to be the bad ass Jedi murdering whole swaths of troopers (/whatever ground forces the exiles have, if any). You are the puppy fighting war hounds, you have to be willing to play the captured target or the student thrown way out of their league. You have to be willing to have your character have serious limits. This is something that can work wonderfully in rp, a Jedi Knight/Master who brings their Padawan with them into conflict (as I assume most would if we were going to use Padawans) would have to keep an eye on their Padawan as they fight, probably needing to help out on occasion. This dynamic makes the combat that much richer, and would probably foster a fun interplay otherwise absent from most combat encounters.
I haven’t talked much about the levels themselves yet, but how would they work into this? Much the same way as any other non combat character, a padawan's levels simply relate to how well known she is within the faction. At level 1 perhaps the padawan is just one of the hundreds of other padawans, perhaps a few people known him/her, but overall they are a relative non entity in the faction. By level four however, the majority of the faction knows who they are; think of Ashoka by the end of the clone wars, she was only a padawan, yet the majority of the Jedi council knew who she was and a large portion of the republic military did aswell (even if it was just in terms of knowing her to be Anakin’s padawan). Am I saying that level has zero bearing on combat? Not quite, obviously a level one padawan is going to probably lose to a level four padawan in combat, but the extent to which a padawan can reach is far diminished. For example, a level four padawan is probably about on par with a newly initiated knight. These are simply truths that anyone playing a padawan needs to accept, they are simply part of playing a padawan. If you want to play a PvP god, padawan is probably not the rank for you (as would make sense realistically speaking).
Last up, let's talk about how to deal with Padawans who become knights. This is probably the one situation where I do see the level issue arising and being truly difficult to deal with. In terms of faction recognition, this would be a non issue, of course a padawan who was well known to the faction would not suddenly lose that notoriety when she/he became a knight, it is when we deal with combat power that things get tricky. As I said a padawan is straight up not as powerful as a knight and thus their levels don’t mean nearly as much, however, if a padawan were to be level 3 or so then be promoted to a knight, would they be considered to suddenly have the combat power of a Jedi counselor? Obviously not, but how to regulate that kind of thing? Well, in my view, though it might seem to be a very very large problem, it really isn’t quite as bad as it may first seem. The amount of people who will actually play a padawan into knighthood for long enough that they reach higher levels like 2, 3, or 4, obviously are not the kind of people who are going to whine if their characters are less powerful, nor are their going to be that many of them in the first place. These special cases should probably be handled on a case by case basis (as I said, I doubt there will be enough of them to warrant too much of a kerfuffle), but generally I would recommend the newly minted knights to voluntarily reduce their combat power to what they/admins deem realistic, until they have accumulated more experience as a knight, simple as that.


Ok, that is my long winded argument over. I really hope this changes some minds about the padawan issue, but if not, I’m glad you at least took the time to read my rambling nonsense and take it into consideration. :)

P.S Sorry about any grammar mistakes, I didn't have much time to reread this, so I'm just gonna assume I made some large mishaps in terms of punctuation at some point or another. Hopefully my rambling is still somewhat legible!

While I may not be able to answer from the admin’s point of view, I would like to interject as a former Jedi FL. Having the rank of Padawan (or equivalent) exist is...often very inconvenient in a word. Often times new members think that because they’re new they need to have Padawans when in reality it is far more difficult to RP one. This results in members wanting to create and RP exceptionally powerful or experienced Padawans. Imagine if we had 7 or 8 Ahsoka-snowflakes running around! Another issue which people don’t realize is that very, very few people want to be masters or instructors. During my several months of leadership and even throughout the entire current TL, I have seen only one Padawan become a Knight. Even still, that was due to the time skip and after having gone through multiple Masters.

Essentially, I understand your point of view and the Admin’s. And I understand how strange and how crazy it sounds for Padawans not to be allowed. However, the amount of RPers who truly understand how to play as a Padawan and realize they might have to RP on their own most of the time...well, it’s pretty rare. Imho, I think playing a Padawan should be a case-by-case exception to the rule, not the standard.

/2cents

 

[Tsunami]

I have a question - Is there a posting limit? Credit limit per thread? Thread limit?

Just because I can see it being quite easy to make a number of threads and go post at high speed, to get to a large word count quickly? Thus levelling up quickly, gaining more influence and power?

I understand that this is a story based site and a story based idea, but is there measures in place other than that of fluffing to avoid people trying to avoid the story and just level up fast!

 

[Dawyn]

I love it. It's a lot of work to reach a level some try to play as from the start, which I've always disliked as they subsequently complain their actions don't impact the main story.

One thing, and it's probably already asked and answered, but it all seems pretty tailored to force sensitive (main faction) characters. Now, I know this is star wars and they are and will remain the main focus but I'm not entirely sure how it compares to the normal folks out there.

Comparing a regular thug to Boba Fett kinda boils down to tech and influence feels too much like wealth and NPCs, which cannot be worked into PvP. Can we expect a more detailed description or is it something we're going to work out as we get there (as its a pilot)?

From my understanding, although more clarification would be nice, is that a thug likely could not pull off complex, precise maneuvers for the purpose of PVP in the same way Boba Fett could. E.g. Boba Fett can make shots that your run of the mill thug simply can't, sort of like your typical mobster vs an Olympic level marksman or Navy SEAL. Both can shoot a blaster but only one can pull off accurate rapid fire with while running or moving for example.

From what I gather from @Dmitri, if you are a level general/admiral/military commander for tactical battles, your troops could pull off maneuvers faster, more efficiently, and with a higher degree of organization and coordination than a novice level 1 commander/general/admiral.

 

[Topher Ridge]

So I've actually got a question. Since everyone starts at level 1, what does that mean for any gear we choose to start with? Will there be any kind of limitation on how much gear and what kind of gear or weapons your character can have when they're created? As in say I make an mercenary character. I want to give him a full set of weapons(i.e. a rifle, sidearm, melee weapon, grenades) and armor. Or would we be limited to only say starting with just a main weapon and maybe some basic armor. I'm just curious if that will be a thing. I know no kind of announcement has been made on how tech will work in the next timeline and I didn't know if this would fall under that announcement when it does happen.

 

[Wit]

It makes sense for a level 1 mercenary, who is basically a rookie, to have minimal gear. Look at how Bobba Fett was going to be portrayed in the 1313 games, his armor was nowhere near complete.

 

[The Good Doctor]

It makes sense for a level 1 mercenary, who is basically a rookie, to have minimal gear. Look at how Bobba Fett was going to be portrayed in the 1313 games, his armor was nowhere near complete.

Well, if we can start at a Knight-equivalent and it was stated we can RP as experienced characters (but with no influence in the galaxy), I don't think we necessarily have to start out as a rookie merc if we go that route. I would think the current personal wealth rules would already cover that.

of course I could be wrong though.

 

[Topher Ridge]

It makes sense for a level 1 mercenary, who is basically a rookie, to have minimal gear. Look at how Bobba Fett was going to be portrayed in the 1313 games, his armor was nowhere near complete.

Well, if we can start at a Knight-equivalent and it was stated we can RP as experienced characters (but with no influence in the galaxy), I don't think we necessarily have to start out as a rookie merc if we go that route. I would think the current personal wealth rules would already cover that.

Yeah he wouldn't be fresh out of boot camp so to say. I just wanted to ask for others as well. Like for exiles or jedi will you be limited to only a lightsaber or some kind of melee weapon of your choice for your gear to start with? I know a lot of people like to role force users with guns and military experience as well so this would apply to them as well.

 

[Gamov]

Not to speak for the staff, but I don't believe personal gear will be heavily regulated. At least no more than it currently is.

Seems to me the only things they would be keeping an eye out for would be making claims to large assets. So your character couldn't start out as the owner of a large corporation with near limitless income at their disposal. Those kinds of things you would need to work for in the RP.

I suppose if you like the idea of starting out as a rookie merc with nothing to your name but a rusty blaster and the clothes on your back, you can. But I don't think you will be required or restricted to starting there.

 

[1new6]

While I may not be able to answer from the admin’s point of view, I would like to interject as a former Jedi FL. Having the rank of Padawan (or equivalent) exist is...often very inconvenient in a word. Often times new members think that because they’re new they need to have Padawans when in reality it is far more difficult to RP one. This results in members wanting to create and RP exceptionally powerful or experienced Padawans. Imagine if we had 7 or 8 Ahsoka-snowflakes running around! Another issue which people don’t realize is that very, very few people want to be masters or instructors. During my several months of leadership and even throughout the entire current TL, I have seen only one Padawan become a Knight. Even still, that was due to the time skip and after having gone through multiple Masters.

Essentially, I understand your point of view and the Admin’s. And I understand how strange and how crazy it sounds for Padawans not to be allowed. However, the amount of RPers who truly understand how to play as a Padawan and realize they might have to RP on their own most of the time...well, it’s pretty rare. Imho, I think playing a Padawan should be a case-by-case exception to the rule, not the standard.

/2cents

That is a sensible reason and while I suppose I am still disappointed that padawans are just being universally banned and still believe that they could possibly work, I understand the decision in terms of a lack of player interest/motivation. Thank you (and Brandon Rhea as well, though I don't know how to add more then one quote) for taking the time to respond to my post. I'm not 100% sure if I will join next TL, but either way I wish you guys the best :).

 

[The Good Doctor]

That is a sensible reason and while I suppose I am still disappointed that padawans are just being universally banned and still believe that they could possibly work, I understand the decision in terms of a lack of player interest/motivation. Thank you (and Brandon Rhea as well, though I don't know how to add more then one quote) for taking the time to respond to my post. I'm not 100% sure if I will join next TL, but either way I wish you guys the best :).

From Brandon's first post about the Padawan thing, it appears you can still play as them in everything but name. From starting with minimal training/power/ experience, and even the master/student thing.

 

[gibbypoo]

Color me impressed if the mod team is set on reviewing each post for fluff. Editors the world over make a living on trimming the fat for the best of writers so I'm not sure how more = better could ever be used as a barometer for writing. But if metrics are to be maintained and word count somehow managed to make more sense than, say, post counts, thread counts, or PC interaction counts then it will have to do.

 

[Sreeya]

Hell no, we’re not reviewing each and every post for fluff. If you get caught, there will be penalties. I trust in members to catch others that are trying to game the system just like they do when people post ridiculous tech or overpowered profiles. I trust in members to not be idiots about this and know better. If that’s abused, we’ll review things then.

Post counts won’t work because we look for larger amount of content for missions. People abused the post count rules by spamming 1 line posts to meet the post count requirement. Word count encourages at least some measure of effort in the replies.

Also there’s no need for the subtle snark :)

 

[The Good Doctor]

Do words edited in and out of posts affect the credits earned?

 

[gibbypoo]

Also there’s no need for the subtle snark :)

 

[Fantasy Liver]

What exactly is a sub account? Is that just your regular account or am I missing something fundamental here?

 

[Arcangel]

What exactly is a sub account? Is that just your regular account or am I missing something fundamental here?

A sub account is a seperate account that is connected to is parent account, which would be your OOC account. Sub accounts would bear the name of the character they represent, and you would only post with it for IC threads for that character.

 

[Raydo]

I trust in members to catch others

 

[Darasuum]

So I take it sub-accounts with be prohibited from being used anywhere but IC rolepalying so that the word count isn't abused. otherwise people will use their sub-accounts in OOC discussions and then it would add to their level. Correct?

 

[Rorren]

So another question, when did the Jedi begin to promote padawans up to knights prematurely to support war efforts? I was hoping it could be rather recent to when the roleplay starts, so that people can write it into their character's story at being suddenly thrust into war. Of course before hand padawan training would be more and more quickened and focused on main ideas rather than a thorough and strict road towards knightship in a progressive withering of the padawan training up to the decision to fully eliminate it in emergency.

I was hoping to play a knight that did get his full training as a padawan, though at this point he would only be given the timely training, but still more than the recruited padawans. This could give him a slightly different perspective while also not making him very powerful, since I still want him to be rather young comparatively to an actual fully-trained knight. So this is why I'm looking for timing on this decision by the order if (it it has been decided yet), and it could probably help others as well. :)

 

[Brandon Rhea]

So I take it sub-accounts with be prohibited from being used anywhere but IC rolepalying so that the word count isn't abused. otherwise people will use their sub-accounts in OOC discussions and then it would add to their level. Correct?

Correct.

So another question, when did the Jedi begin to promote padawans up to knights prematurely to support war efforts? I was hoping it could be rather recent to when the roleplay starts, so that people can write it into their character's story at being suddenly thrust into war. Of course before hand padawan training would be more and more quickened and focused on main ideas rather than a thorough and strict road towards knightship in a progressive withering of the padawan training up to the decision to fully eliminate it in emergency.

I was hoping to play a knight that did get his full training as a padawan, though at this point he would only be given the timely training, but still more than the recruited padawans. This could give him a slightly different perspective while also not making him very powerful, since I still want him to be rather young comparatively to an actual fully-trained knight. So this is why I'm looking for timing on this decision by the order if (it it has been decided yet), and it could probably help others as well. :)

To be determined.