The Force

[Toska]

There are a few powers that I'm unsure about. I think they were banned, but don't remember if this was the case, so I figured I'd ask two things here:

1.) Are they banned?
2.) Why are they/should they be banned?

The powers in question are Force Fly, Phase, Flow Walking, Mechu-deru, Dreamscape, and Doppelgänger.

 

[Kiro]

Flow Walking I -know- is banned. Considering it allows you to move through the past, and I believe influence it as well...

 

[Toska]

Does it? I must be thinking of a different power then. I recall one that was essentially teleport, but a little more conditional. That's what I was thinking of.

 

[Colt556]

One of the teleporting powers is Force Travel. Flow walking was one used by the skywalkers that allowed you to view past events as if you were actually there. It wasn't literal time travel so you couldn't influence it or anything, just observe it.

 

[Sleven]

In my opinion there is no reason to ban any Force power bar: let's say Sadow's ability to blow up stars or Palpatine's ability to make fleet/planet destroying Force storms. But in my opinion, even they can have a time and a place in a good agreed upon roleplaying setting as a plot device. If it isn't agreed upon, simply don't RP it or don't affiliate with those who agree to RP it. Now let's get to each of those you listed more directly:

-Flow Walking: Well precog isn't allowed in battles, so I could see why Aing-Tii fighting sense version of Flow Walking would be banned, but likely there would be no issue with it as a plot device outside of that. In my opinion the idea that you can influence past events is only extrapolated from vague references and utter nonsense. In my opinion there's no direct statement that Flow Walking has an actual or real impact on the past.
-Phase: I could see how people would think this ability is "LULZ OP" but considering that it's basically a death sentence when used against anything other than solid, inorganic, unmoving/unchanging structures (and still can be a death sentence when used on those), then people should realize how "non op" it is. Just read the force power description. It's pretty much impossible to phase through a person, droid, explosion, attack, etc.
-Force Fly: Once again, gonna have to say "not op". Takes a bunch of energy to maintain, even Sith Lords can't keep this up very long, and people can counteract your telekinesis with their own, etc.
-Mechu-deru: It's just Sith Alchemy, which isn't banned. Common sense like any other power. As long as people aren't creating super undefeatable battle droids or indestructible intelligent armor, it's a nonissue.
-Doppleganger: Just no, not banned. It's an illusion. The only "extraordinary" ability it has is the ability for it's creator to perceive things from that location and use limited basic force powers. That being said, the more abilities you give to your illusion, the more concentration and/or energy it takes to create and maintain. So if you try and use telekinesis in 2 places at once, you're going to be force screwing yourself. Besides I've seen this ability used by some characters before anyways.
-Dreamscape: While it may be more misleading, I don't see how this power is any more different than almost any other basic illusion you can create I mean really... it's just illusions on a grand scale, and the description even admits it's fairly easy to shatter once recognized as an illusion.

Also, seeing as you probably meant Fold Space or Teleport instead of Flow Walking, I'll cover that. If we break that down: not a combat viable Force power. Takes an extreme amount of energy and concentration to use, regardless of the distance traveled. Additionally, it has to be some place in the line of sight of the user, and due to the amount of Force energy required as the genesis of the power (a little tear/fold in space) it's pretty easy to detect not only the point of origin, but the point of exit as well. In other words, if you think you're going to teleport behind someone and auto kill them in combat, you're dumb. You might be able to escape if you can generate the power and concentration mid fight, but they could still detect where you ended up and most likely track you.

tldr: Banning most force powers is pretty pointless. Most have huge drawbacks or limitations if people just use their brains.

 

[Empress]

the reason there are banned ones is thus:

vagueness: MANY MANY abilities were born purely as a magic fix for a situation in a book or comic, their are used once to solve a problem and never really touched on again, explained and what not
with this you also see abilities like fold space, dark transfer etc etc which are not only magic fixes, they are munchkin in nature- which leads to:

over powered- dark transfer for example was an ability that semed to have all sorts of magic fixes for situations, and more over even allowed for self resurrection. The thing many many people dont get is, the main reason alot of the over powered things are banned is because they are abused. people wanting to be the munchkin or twink kings and queens learning these abilities out of th eblue early on, using them to exploit a pvp situation in ways that is impossible to deal with * or again self resurrecting, or creating a singularity etc"

there is a need for a balance, to regulate these things or too many problems would arise, it would remove the vulnerabilities and limits, make non force users even more rare to play and flat out unlikely to see even attempt to deal with force users, over abuse in some of the things to bypass the development systems etc etc etc, some powers are not so much banned but nerfed for his same reason.

something written vaguely in a book to be a magic fix all, or in a comic to play with an idea and make for an interesting read, or functions as a video game mechanic is a major problem with force powers, namely because they dont always get the details filled in they need other than "OMG THATS INSANE!" and people too readily forget what works in one medium, be it books, comics, games, does NOT translate into other mediums as well or at all when you have to factor in countless other people, with different maturity levels, different comprehension or views on how/when something is too much, or interpretations on vaguely written abilities that are little more than a blurb

 

[Xan]

I can help with the original question by saying that Phase is banned, but that's all that I know about on the list.

 

[Toska]

the reason there are banned ones is thus:

vagueness: MANY MANY abilities were born purely as a magic fix for a situation in a book or comic, their are used once to solve a problem and never really touched on again, explained and what not
with this you also see abilities like fold space, dark transfer etc etc which are not only magic fixes, they are munchkin in nature- which leads to:

over powered- dark transfer for example was an ability that semed to have all sorts of magic fixes for situations, and more over even allowed for self resurrection. The thing many many people dont get is, the main reason alot of the over powered things are banned is because they are abused. people wanting to be the munchkin or twink kings and queens learning these abilities out of th eblue early on, using them to exploit a pvp situation in ways that is impossible to deal with * or again self resurrecting, or creating a singularity etc"

there is a need for a balance, to regulate these things or too many problems would arise, it would remove the vulnerabilities and limits, make non force users even more rare to play and flat out unlikely to see even attempt to deal with force users, over abuse in some of the things to bypass the development systems etc etc etc, some powers are not so much banned but nerfed for his same reason.

something written vaguely in a book to be a magic fix all, or in a comic to play with an idea and make for an interesting read, or functions as a video game mechanic is a major problem with force powers, namely because they dont always get the details filled in they need other than "OMG THATS INSANE!" and people too readily forget what works in one medium, be it books, comics, games, does NOT translate into other mediums as well or at all when you have to factor in countless other people, with different maturity levels, different comprehension or views on how/when something is too much, or interpretations on vaguely written abilities that are little more than a blurb

If that's the case, would it be possible for a member to write up articles about the powers in question, run them by the administrative team, and get them accepted as part of site canon? Dark Transfer, for instance, has the potential to create some interesting plot devices if used correctly but, as you mentioned, is broken as currently used.

 

[Sleven]

I think we have to narrow this conversation to talk intelligently about it. Are we talking strictly PvP or collaborative storytelling? Because if the object is to tell a story, no Force Power should be off the table assuming all parties agree. In some cases the powers can actually make a story interesting but can also have no place outside that particular story (something you have to agree upon with the next person you create a story with). For PvP we could go on and on about why you shouldn't be able to kill 100 PCs with a Force Storm or bring your recently deceased friend back to life.

@Adena:

Agree with the Dark Transfer ban considering it was only useable by Cade and Krayt (because they were lovers) and has never actually been manifested in any other Force Sensitive. But aside from its resurrection and insta-killing properties, many of the upper-limits of what it can do as a healing power have been replicated numerous times by numerous Force users that have mastered the healing arts.

Can't disagree with you more that Fold Space, it has no reason to be banned. It's not even combat effective for reasons I stated above. If you're talking about creating a singularity with the Force, that's a completely different power (remember SW doesn't follow physics *eherm* theoretical physics since we actually don't know what it would take to teleport something we can only guess). Fold Space only revolves around teleporting oneself and objects, not creating singularities, wormholes, or black holes.

@Xan:
Phase isn't/shouldn't be banned, read my first post for reasons why. It's not even a combat technique. Getting past a blast door? Maybe. During high stress/battle? No. Getting through explosives or attacks? Impossible.

VVV (This goes for everyone) VVV
All people have to do is read wiki to understand that these powers simply can't do certain things. Fold Space =/= Force Singularity and Phase =/= indestructible during combat.

I'll also stand by my statement of: in the effort to create a good story nothing should be off the table. That does not mean I approve of everything for PvP, simply for agreed upon stories.

 

[Colt556]

I have to kind of disagree with the way you portray fold space. You said it doesn't create singularities, wormholes, or black holes. However it does create wormholes. That's how the power functions. You are basically bending space to connect two locations. So you essentially step through to your destination. When space reverts back to normal you're wherever you want to be. That's exactly how wormholes work. So in laymans term, fold space is simply creating a wormhole that you/things you want can pass through. It is also not restricted to yourself, as I said you can teleport anything. The aing-tii use this power instead of hyperdrives, they teleport entire ships.

While I don't agree with banning the power, heavy limitations should be put in place. Limit what the user can teleport, a charge-up time (even if brief), things like that. Them simply teleporting away right before a turbolaser hits them is stupid and I hate that.

 

[Sleven]

I have to kind of disagree with the way you portray fold space. You said it doesn't create singularities, wormholes, or black holes. However it does create wormholes. That's how the power functions. You are basically bending space to connect two locations. So you essentially step through to your destination. When space reverts back to normal you're wherever you want to be. That's exactly how wormholes work. So in laymans term, fold space is simply creating a wormhole that you/things you want can pass through. It is also not restricted to yourself, as I said you can teleport anything. The aing-tii use this power instead of hyperdrives, they teleport entire ships.

While I don't agree with banning the power, heavy limitations should be put in place. Limit what the user can teleport, a charge-up time (even if brief), things like that. Them simply teleporting away right before a turbolaser hits them is stupid and I hate that.

You're applying "our" "earthly" theoretical physics to SW. SW doesn't follow physics: Jango's mines create sound waves that can blow up asteroids (sound can't exist in a vacuum), lightsabers have entirely inconsistent and impossible simultaneous properties, etc.

The way the power functions is just like every other Force power: "Magic!" *razzle dazzle* and the "Mysterious Force". The powers just happen, only some powers are given actual scientific explanations, but never for their catalyst (since it's simply: "the Force"). You can't equate a Force power's function to a hyperdrive or other technological or scientific process.

 

[The Kyzer]

Don't forget that the Rakata used the Force to tunnel through hyperspace, so I would think ripping a wormhole (aka hyperspace) in normal space would make sense. This COULD have been the way they did it (as the canon is a bit...ambiguous about that), and would make sense. Folding space is a whole different concept, one dating back to Dune. Don't even want to get into the sheer shitstorm that science is.

However, with the sheer amount of extra work it would put on the Admins to JUST regulate these abilities, I agree that they should be banned, or only usable by PCers with explicit permission. That would be simple enough, because the sheer power required to use these abilities would require Master-level or higher (Grand Master/Dark Lord/whatever).

EDIT: And this:

You're applying "our" "earthly" theoretical physics to SW. SW doesn't follow physics: Jango's mines create sound waves that can blow up asteroids (sound can't exist in a vacuum), lightsabers have entirely inconsistent and impossible simultaneous properties, etc.

The way the power functions is just like every other Force power: "Magic!" *razzle dazzle* and the "Mysterious Force". The powers just happen, only some powers are given actual scientific explanations, but never for their catalyst (since it's simply: "the Force"). You can't equate a Force power's function to a hyperdrive or other technological or scientific process.

Made my day. Going to use *razzle dazzle* in an RP now. Thank you.

 

[Sleven]

However, with the sheer amount of extra work it would put on the Admins to JUST regulate these abilities, I agree that they should be banned, or only usable by PCers with explicit permission. That would be simple enough, because the sheer power required to use these abilities would require Master-level or higher (Grand Master/Dark Lord/whatever).

While I'm glad I could make your day, I don't think "too much work for teh Admins" should ever be an excuse for a blanket ban on something. You can abuse "core" powers like Tutaminis and Telekinesis in just as many (if not more ways) then something like Fold Space. In fact I feel it's harder to regulate vague and overbroad "simple" Force powers like those. I know even if every Force power mentioned by the OP in this thread gets a ban I'm still going to roleplay assuming they exist. But I'm not going to be a dick and impose them on others, and like the gentleman I am I'm going to discuss them with people before the thread starts or when they come up.

 

[The Kyzer]

I know even if every Force power mentioned by the OP in this thread gets a ban I'm still going to roleplay assuming they exist. But I'm not going to be a dick and impose them on others, and like the gentleman I am I'm going to discuss them with people before the thread starts or when they come up.

We wouldn't need half the rules we have if everyone did that. Good man.

 

[Colt556]

You're applying "our" "earthly" theoretical physics to SW. SW doesn't follow physics: Jango's mines create sound waves that can blow up asteroids (sound can't exist in a vacuum), lightsabers have entirely inconsistent and impossible simultaneous properties, etc.

The way the power functions is just like every other Force power: "Magic!" *razzle dazzle* and the "Mysterious Force". The powers just happen, only some powers are given actual scientific explanations, but never for their catalyst (since it's simply: "the Force"). You can't equate a Force power's function to a hyperdrive or other technological or scientific process.

That's the mistake you're making. SW most certainly does follow real life physics. It follows them until it doesn't. However fold space adheres to real life physics. It's just using magic to cause it. Ultimately it's opening a wormhole, though. The cause may be magic, but the effect is still firmly in the realm of theoretical physics. You're using the force to create wormholes. Also, Lightsabers are theoretically possible. They're really just circulating plasma contained by an EM field. Lastly, the seismic charges used by Jango had very powerful explosives, even without sound. Barradium is the stuf used in thermal detonators after all.

In the end, what I'm saying is you can't just go "it's SW so physics don't matter". They matter until SW explicitly tramples on them, and fold space doesn't. Really none of your examples do, to be honest.

 

[Sleven]

That's the mistake you're making. SW most certainly does follow real life physics. It follows them until it doesn't. However fold space adheres to real life physics. It's just using magic to cause it. Ultimately it's opening a wormhole, though. The cause may be magic, but the effect is still firmly in the realm of theoretical physics. You're using the force to create wormholes. Also, Lightsabers are theoretically possible. They're really just circulating plasma contained by an EM field. Lastly, the seismic charges used by Jango had very powerful explosives, even without sound. Barradium is the stuf used in thermal detonators after all.

In the end, what I'm saying is you can't just go "it's SW so physics don't matter". They matter until SW explicitly tramples on them, and fold space doesn't. Really none of your examples do, to be honest.

THEORETICAL PHYSICS

You do understand that we don't actually know if a wormhole leads to anywhere. And that's assuming they even actually exist to the extent we believe they do, if at all.
Similarily, Fold Space is specifically trampled by SW "pseudo-notreally-physics at all". Even if we ignore that, I'd love to see a quote where an Aing Tii or Luke Skywalker is all, "By creating a wormhole I can use Fold Space." I don't know of one, because they don't. They simply Fold Space. It's magic. It's the Force, you know you love it.

That brings us to the point we're just going to keep mentioning all day till we're blue in the face: the Force is magic. That's why it's so simple. Don't try to add too much extra crap to it. Example: please explain through physics how I can lift an object with my mind? You can't. I'm not changing the effects of gravity or any other natural force, I'm simply moving it by tapping into this unknown all powerful "Force" AKA "MAGIC!!!" *razzle dazzle*. Pure and simple. No where does it say telekinesis is manipulating gravity or Newton's Laws or Einstein's Theory or Stephen Hawkings' soup'd-up wheelchair. In fact Yoda says size doesn't even matter in TK, only your knowledge of/belief in the Force. But we've been over this already.

Also, for future reference: saying my examples don't counter your point doesn't make them simply not counter your point.

Honestly: the fact that sound exists in space (so does the fact that fire can occur in a vacuum) in SW refutes your point that physics applies to SW on the most basic level of logic. Physics is an entire area of science, you can't just pick and choose what applies and what doesn't or it's no longer physics, it's becoming something new: Science Fiction or Fantasy perhaps. I can go on, but you can see where this is leading. These are things that reoccur and aren't simply "special clauses" or "minor inconsistencies", they happen repeatedly. So to say that you can make an assumption about how the Force or Fold Space works without a direct quote is beyond presumptuous.

 

[Sleven]

Holy shit, let's get back on topic though:
-Banned/Not Banned
-Why/Why Not
-Force Powers

If it doesn't meet all of those three requirements, it should probably be brought to another thread (Perhaps labeled: theoretical physics and Star Wars) and it can be discussed in there.

 

[Empress]

You're applying "our" "earthly" theoretical physics to SW. SW doesn't follow physics: Jango's mines create sound waves that can blow up asteroids (sound can't exist in a vacuum), lightsabers have entirely inconsistent and impossible simultaneous properties, etc.

sort of a misnomer, Jango's were seismic charges, and yes soundwaves exist in a vaccume. No they dont function like they do in an atmosphere, but they are there, hell black holes are very very loud as are stars. They just dont have a sound as we know it by ear to be as the wave length subtle enough to need specialized equipment to " hear" but seismic detonation n an asteroid field have more than enough to do exactly as they did...those sort of things happen naturally in space on their own anyway.

sabers are plasma in a magnetic field, which were not to that point of controlling plasma ourself, but it's realistic- the old canon of " pure light" was sorta retconed out - and our ability to trap light currently in real world is just slowing it enough to contain it for a millionth of a second anyway so looking at the retcon of them sabers are totally plausible in their abilities in " that " sense


so physics really are not really ignored that much to be honest, and the days of " the force is magic" also does not really work in many regards because again, the basic principal of again, folding space, yeah you use the force to trigger it, but your still going to be applying the same concept of physics, just a different powersource ( or are you? Many choose to look at the force as the dark energy, dark matter, and other facets of particle physics we are just now starting to realise how expansive is be it in a universal or multiversal scale- its the epically small that will keep us busy for eons )


but at the end of the day? If its banned, its banned one can pm a reason why they think perhaps it should be unbanned - but things are generally banned for a reason and is enforced as such

 

[Colt556]

THEORETICAL PHYSICS

You do understand that we don't actually know if a wormhole leads to anywhere. And that's assuming they even actually exist to the extent we believe they do, if at all.
Similarily, Fold Space is specifically trampled by SW "pseudo-notreally-physics at all". Even if we ignore that, I'd love to see a quote where an Aing Tii or Luke Skywalker is all, "By creating a wormhole I can use Fold Space." I don't know of one, because they don't. They simply Fold Space. It's magic. It's the Force, you know you love it.

That brings us to the point we're just going to keep mentioning all day till we're blue in the face: the Force is magic. That's why it's so simple. Don't try to add too much extra crap to it. Example: please explain through physics how I can lift an object with my mind? You can't. I'm not changing the effects of gravity or any other natural force, I'm simply moving it by tapping into this unknown all powerful "Force" AKA "MAGIC!!!" *razzle dazzle*. Pure and simple. No where does it say telekinesis is manipulating gravity or Newton's Laws or Einstein's Theory or Stephen Hawkings' soup'd-up wheelchair. In fact Yoda says size doesn't even matter in TK, only your knowledge of/belief in the Force. But we've been over this already.

Also, for future reference: saying my examples don't counter your point doesn't make them simply not counter your point.

Honestly: the fact that sound exists in space (so does the fact that fire can occur in a vacuum) in SW refutes your point that physics applies to SW on the most basic level of logic. Physics is an entire area of science, you can't just pick and choose what applies and what doesn't or it's no longer physics, it's becoming something new: Science Fiction or Fantasy perhaps. I can go on, but you can see where this is leading. These are things that reoccur and aren't simply "special clauses" or "minor inconsistencies", they happen repeatedly. So to say that you can make an assumption about how the Force or Fold Space works without a direct quote is beyond presumptuous.

You emboldened the part where I said these things fit theoretical physics only to turn around and and ignore my point.

Listen, everything mentioned so far in your posts can be explained using theoretical physics. Fold space works by utilizing wormholes. No it doesn't specifically mention the word "wormhole" but the description for how the power works is the exact same description for how wormholes work. And as I had already said, the cause may be magic, but the effect is still science. Just because the cause is magic doesn't mean you can go around saying "it's magic physics don't matter", because they still do. Your examples rely on nitpicking and ignoring various facts.

Neither sound nor fire exists in space in the SW universe. They do in movies and games because it would be boring sitting through nothing but silence. It's a design choice. But in canon, in the universe, there is no sound. As for fire, fire exists because oxygen exists in the ships. Even in real life if a space shuttle explodes in space, there is still fire because there is oxygen. Nowhere in SW does fire just randomly exist in space.

You can argue this all you want, but fact remains that SW still adhere's to physics for the most part. Some things ignore physics, but the SW universe as a whole does not. Just because it has magic doesn't mean you can use that as an excuse to justify ignoring physics in all things. Ships can't reach the speed of light in star wars because energy requirements, hence why they use an alternate dimension. Lightsabers utilize EM fields to contain plasma. Fold space works by using wormholes. It can all be explained using theoretical physics. The only thing you can't explain is the CAUSE, that is something I must stress here. We can't explain HOW the force creates wormholes, or allows you to lift a box. But the effects created by the force can often be explained. We can explain that fold space utilizes wormholes. We can explain how force lightning works. Those things still adhere to real life knowledge. Don't try to claim otherwise, because to claim otherwise is a crutch so you can go "it's magic I aint gotta explain shit" which is sloppy writing and sloppy story-telling. If it can be explained, explain it. If you can't explain it, which is the case with some things, then do your best. Don't just shrug everything off.

 

[The Kyzer]

sort of a misnomer, Jango's were seismic charges, and yes soundwaves exist in a vaccume. No they dont function like they do in an atmosphere, but they are there, hell black holes are very very loud as are stars. They just dont have a sound as we know it by ear to be as the wave length subtle enough to need specialized equipment to " hear" but seismic detonation n an asteroid field have more than enough to do exactly as they did...those sort of things happen naturally in space on their own anyway.

sabers are plasma in a magnetic field, which were not to that point of controlling plasma ourself, but it's realistic

Plus, in a cockpit, you'd hear all of it a bit better. It'd be muffled greatly, but still audible. If you were hit, you'd DEFINITELY hear that, possibly so much that it might blow out your ear drums, similar to old tanks getting hit with bullets or small tank-slugs. Their crews had to wear earmuffs because of that and the firing of their own gun. Ask anyone who's seen the first season of The Walking Dead. Pistol shot in a tank=deaf.

And as for lightsabers, we HAVE created a lightsaber-like beam, but it requires a huge building and TONS of power, and it operates more like the power coupling-things on pod racers that hold the engines together, oscillating between two points, than a lightsaber's single emitter. We're getting there.

And guys, we still haven't fully understood the Human Genome yet, so we're lightyears away from understanding squat.